Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?

Should homosexuals be given the death penalty?


  • Total voters
    344

red77

New member
Not if it's against the law.

Which it isn't...


So, all of the Mosaic law was only for Israel, at that one time?

Exactly how much of it do you think applies now? all of it?!


You really are a moron. The reason I disagree with the Inquisition is because it was set up to force people to convert to Catholicism. And God would never be behind forced conversions, to any belief system.

So you dont have a problem with their barbaric methods of torture as well?


If I hate everything about you, I hate you. It doesn't mean I don't also love you. And if you can't love someone you hate, that's your problem, isn't it?

I hate the actions of people, at times in the past I have hated people for various things but not to the extent of clinging onto it at the expense of finding value in people and forgiveness, I don't hate actual people, if you do then thats up to you really...

Of course it isn't as bad. Not even God believed it deserved the death penalty. But the Muslims do. If you get caught stealing three times in a Muslim theocracy, you die. Now that's barbaric.

Indeed it is, as barbaric as a modern western society mandating the DP for adultery....
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Which it isn't...
I didn't say it was. I said it should be.

Exactly how much of it do you think applies now? all of it?!
I know I've been over this.

America's Criminal Code
You shall not murder. Judges will execute those convicted of murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21, 31; Deut. 19:11-13; 1Ki. 18:22, 39-40; 1 Tim. 1:8-10) including those euthanizing, starving, or aborting (Ex. 21:22-23) human beings from the moment of fertilization to natural death. Judges will flog those guilty of assault and impose restitution for lost income and medical expenses (Ex. 21:18-19), and for permanent injury also require an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, life for life (Lev. 24:19-20). Judges will carry out all corporal and capital punishments swiftly and painfully, within twenty-four hours of conviction; and limit floggings to forty blows (Deut. 25:1-3; Lev. 24:19-20; 19:16-21; 1 Pet. 2:20). Judges will not convict for the use of force in defense of property and the innocent, in escalation to match the perceived threat up to lethal force; nor for purely accidental homicide (Deut. 19:4); will execute those guilty of negligent homicide (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8); and flog those who could have avoided otherwise accidental homicide, and anyone committing revenge killing (Num. 35:26-27) of those guilty of capital crimes.
You shall not commit adultery. Judges will execute those convicted of bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16); those convicted of incest including with in-laws (Lev. 11-12, 14-15, 17, 19-21); of homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22, 29; 20:13); of child molestation; of kidnapping or rape (Ex. 21:15-16; Deut. 22:25-27; 24:7); and of adultery with a married woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14). Judges will flog those convicted of fornication; of public use of vulgar sexual and excretory language; of sexually suggestive dress or behavior; of intoxication; and of possession of pornography. Judges will flog more severely those convicted of transvestism; of public nudity; and of distributing pornography. And judges will flog more severely still those convicted of prostitution; of producing pornography for any use; and of sexual acts in public places.
You shall not steal. Judges will flog and require restitution for convicted thieves, negligent recipients of stolen goods, and those who violate contracts (Deut. 25:1‑3). Judges will impose double restitution for recovered goods, the return of the goods plus one-hundred percent value (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15); quadruple for destroyed or sold goods; quintuple for intellectual, irreplaceable and sentimental goods (Ex. 22:1); seven times for insignificant goods (Prov. 6:30-31); and twenty percent for voluntarily surrendered goods (Lev. 6:1-7). The judge shall impose corporal punishment and life for life penalties for collateral damage from any crime, including bodily injury resulting from the destruction of property which warrants greater than even restitution. A person or his resources causing unforeseeable or unavoidable property damage including by natural disaster without negligence shall pay no restitution, or with negligence shall pay even restitution. Persons taking shared risk shall pay mutual restitution (Ex. 21:32-36; Lev. 24:18). Avoidable accident without negligence, including the malfunction of a maintained resource requires even restitution but with negligence, including by a neglected resource demands double restitution. Gross negligence requires quadruple restitution and intentional destruction demands quintuple restitution. Excepting those executed, judges will sentence those who cannot pay restitution, to indentured servitude for up to seven years with the victim receiving all service or earnings.
You shall not bear false witness. Judges will punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abbeting, attempt, fully as though they had personally committed the crime (Deut. 19:16-21; 2 Sam. 1:15-16; Ex. 20:16). Judges will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander. Judges will flog those in contempt of court, and execute those guilty of treason and violators of court orders which protect victims (Deut. 17:12-13). A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is guilty the moment he commits a crime, but presumed innocent (Deut. 22:22-27) in court until convicted. Convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty are equally unjust (Pro. 17:15). A judge at his discretion, suspends the rights of liberty including the use of weapons, for the credibly accused, and mandatorily confines one facing a likely sentence of maiming or capital punishment, until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence, shall suffice for conviction; individual rights shall not supersede the judge's God-given right to impose punishment on the guilty. Judges shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; may observe and advise other judges during trial [B P]; shall not allow witnesses to swear or give an oath (James 5:12, Mat. 5:34-37; 2 Cor. 1:17); and shall question witnesses directly. Judges shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; shall permit witnesses and victims to participate in punishment (Deut. 13:9; 17:7); and shall show no mercy to the guilty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).
America's Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.


So you dont have a problem with their barbaric methods of torture as well?
Such as?

I hate the actions of people, at times in the past I have hated people for various things but not to the extent of clinging onto it at the expense of finding value in people and forgiveness, I don't hate actual people, if you do then thats up to you really...
Who said anything about hating at the expense of anything?

Indeed it is, as barbaric as a modern western society mandating the DP for adultery....
So why wasn't it barbaric then? If it's barbaric now, it must have been such then. No?
 

red77

New member
I didn't say it was. I said it should be.

Well fair enough, I dont....


I know I've been over this.

America's Criminal Code
You shall not murder. Judges will execute those convicted of murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21, 31; Deut. 19:11-13; 1Ki. 18:22, 39-40; 1 Tim. 1:8-10) including those euthanizing, starving, or aborting (Ex. 21:22-23) human beings from the moment of fertilization to natural death. Judges will flog those guilty of assault and impose restitution for lost income and medical expenses (Ex. 21:18-19), and for permanent injury also require an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, life for life (Lev. 24:19-20). Judges will carry out all corporal and capital punishments swiftly and painfully, within twenty-four hours of conviction; and limit floggings to forty blows (Deut. 25:1-3; Lev. 24:19-20; 19:16-21; 1 Pet. 2:20). Judges will not convict for the use of force in defense of property and the innocent, in escalation to match the perceived threat up to lethal force; nor for purely accidental homicide (Deut. 19:4); will execute those guilty of negligent homicide (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8); and flog those who could have avoided otherwise accidental homicide, and anyone committing revenge killing (Num. 35:26-27) of those guilty of capital crimes.
You shall not commit adultery. Judges will execute those convicted of bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16); those convicted of incest including with in-laws (Lev. 11-12, 14-15, 17, 19-21); of homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22, 29; 20:13); of child molestation; of kidnapping or rape (Ex. 21:15-16; Deut. 22:25-27; 24:7); and of adultery with a married woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14). Judges will flog those convicted of fornication; of public use of vulgar sexual and excretory language; of sexually suggestive dress or behavior; of intoxication; and of possession of pornography. Judges will flog more severely those convicted of transvestism; of public nudity; and of distributing pornography. And judges will flog more severely still those convicted of prostitution; of producing pornography for any use; and of sexual acts in public places.
You shall not steal. Judges will flog and require restitution for convicted thieves, negligent recipients of stolen goods, and those who violate contracts (Deut. 25:1‑3). Judges will impose double restitution for recovered goods, the return of the goods plus one-hundred percent value (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15); quadruple for destroyed or sold goods; quintuple for intellectual, irreplaceable and sentimental goods (Ex. 22:1); seven times for insignificant goods (Prov. 6:30-31); and twenty percent for voluntarily surrendered goods (Lev. 6:1-7). The judge shall impose corporal punishment and life for life penalties for collateral damage from any crime, including bodily injury resulting from the destruction of property which warrants greater than even restitution. A person or his resources causing unforeseeable or unavoidable property damage including by natural disaster without negligence shall pay no restitution, or with negligence shall pay even restitution. Persons taking shared risk shall pay mutual restitution (Ex. 21:32-36; Lev. 24:18). Avoidable accident without negligence, including the malfunction of a maintained resource requires even restitution but with negligence, including by a neglected resource demands double restitution. Gross negligence requires quadruple restitution and intentional destruction demands quintuple restitution. Excepting those executed, judges will sentence those who cannot pay restitution, to indentured servitude for up to seven years with the victim receiving all service or earnings.
You shall not bear false witness. Judges will punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abbeting, attempt, fully as though they had personally committed the crime (Deut. 19:16-21; 2 Sam. 1:15-16; Ex. 20:16). Judges will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander. Judges will flog those in contempt of court, and execute those guilty of treason and violators of court orders which protect victims (Deut. 17:12-13). A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is guilty the moment he commits a crime, but presumed innocent (Deut. 22:22-27) in court until convicted. Convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty are equally unjust (Pro. 17:15). A judge at his discretion, suspends the rights of liberty including the use of weapons, for the credibly accused, and mandatorily confines one facing a likely sentence of maiming or capital punishment, until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence, shall suffice for conviction; individual rights shall not supersede the judge's God-given right to impose punishment on the guilty. Judges shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; may observe and advise other judges during trial [B P]; shall not allow witnesses to swear or give an oath (James 5:12, Mat. 5:34-37; 2 Cor. 1:17); and shall question witnesses directly. Judges shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; shall permit witnesses and victims to participate in punishment (Deut. 13:9; 17:7); and shall show no mercy to the guilty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).
America's Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.

Well if you want all that to apply to the present day then be my guest, I certainly dont - nor do I think it was intended to be



What? You dont think they tortured people?

Who said anything about hating at the expense of anything?

I explained why I think to absolutely hate a person does that

So why wasn't it barbaric then? If it's barbaric now, it must have been such then. No?

i've answered this to you already - numerous times....
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Well fair enough, I dont....
Why not?

Well if you want all that to apply to the present day then be my guest, I certainly dont - nor do I think it was intended to be
Why not?

What? You dont think they tortured people?
I don't know very much about it. But if they did, then I also disagree with that. And also with killing people because they wouldn't convert.

I explained why I think to absolutely hate a person does that
And when did anyone say anything about absolute hate? Other than you.

i've answered this to you already - numerous times....
No you haven't. You've obfuscated, and said things that were completely full of crap. You've never had anything substantial. If something is barbaric, it was, is and always will be barbaric. It doesn't change from one time period to the next.
 

Quincy

New member
Why hide behind scriptures? You have no thought process of your own? Like none of us have read those......You must have just discovered them. They should make u Pope.


Erica

get used to it girl. u might wanna iggy daniel50. knowing u, he will make u say something to get u banned. hehehe :shut:
 

red77

New member

I don't want to live in a 'nanny' state for starters, it's bad enough as it is....



Because I dont remotely believe it was intended to be, sometimes it seems as though the NT is an inconvenience for those who would have us live under mosaic law.....

I don't know very much about it. But if they did, then I also disagree with that. And also with killing people because they wouldn't convert.

Well do a bit of research, some of their methods were hideous....

And when did anyone say anything about absolute hate? Other than you.

Look, if you're gonna use the title of a song - "I hate everything about you" then that is pretty absolute :dizzy:


No you haven't. You've obfuscated, and said things that were completely full of crap. You've never had anything substantial. If something is barbaric, it was, is and always will be barbaric. It doesn't change from one time period to the next.

I was honest with you and will be so again, if you don't like the answer then fine but dispense with this 'obfuscation' rubbish....
many things are unacceptable now that would have been a hundred years ago or more, times move on, people progress, as a race we've (hopefully for the most part) advanced beyond the medieval ages where we respect life more and have less tolerance for any type of mindless torture or cruelty, I admitted to you that I don't understand why the DP was mandated for OT times as I'm a modern civillian, I can only accept that things were very much different then all round and that many aspects of life were a lot harsher than what they are now, the difference is I dont want to go backwards to a more brutal age but forwards, and whatever you have to say about my stance I will go along with what Jesus said to a self righteous mob who were convicted by their conscience (not the law) to wander off from a scenario in which you would seemingly have us return to

There is no 'courage' in bludgeoning a helpless terrified person to death as you inferred to me beacuse I wouldnt have the 'spine' to do it....
 

Quincy

New member
How about you own up to your sexuality like a man, my love? Use that tragic mind of yours to stand up for people like us and gays. Stop playing these "Allegorical" games. :mad:

Erica

lol look what u do when im asleep. last time i tell ya about a site i post on hehehe. and i dont hide it erica, no one has asked me since i started posting seriously on this site. but ok fine, no peace for the wicked, geez. been a bisexual most of my life and this is what i gots to say about it. those opposed to it were most likely raised to hate it, hearing bout how nasty it is or wrong. they probably got some preconception in their minds its their job to give a crap about other people and whoever is different needs to be saved, or they just plain cant admit they are.

im sure a whole crapshoot of u will respond with babbling random crap or some scripture trying to make urself not fit into one of these catergories. listen bottom line, MOST homosexuals not in the media all the time seeking gratification of their lame egos dont care what u think about them. dont give a crap about being saved unless its from peoples swine mouths, and sure as heck dont usually waste time posting about how they should live their lives with people full of hate.

tragic enough for u lillith?
 

YahuShuan

New member
lol look what u do when im asleep. last time i tell ya about a site i post on hehehe. and i dont hide it erica, no one has asked me since i started posting seriously on this site. but ok fine, no peace for the wicked, geez. been a bisexual most of my life and this is what i gots to say about it. those opposed to it were most likely raised to hate it, hearing bout how nasty it is or wrong. they probably got some preconception in their minds its their job to give a crap about other people and whoever is different needs to be saved, or they just plain cant admit they are.

im sure a whole crapshoot of u will respond with babbling random crap or some scripture trying to make urself not fit into one of these catergories. listen bottom line, MOST homosexuals not in the media all the time seeking gratification of their lame egos dont care what u think about them. dont give a crap about being saved unless its from peoples swine mouths, and sure as heck dont usually waste time posting about how they should live their lives with people full of hate.

tragic enough for u lillith?

Swine mouths? With what has been in yours, that is the pot calling the kettle black. And what comes out is much worse. There's some babbling random **** for ya. Most homosexuals need to be dead because their non-repentant attitude is trying to educate children now towards accepting them against the Desire of the One who Created us all. And they bring SHAME to us all who have love for God more than men, and they pollute the People of God and go after their children.

They can not deny this, they came after me. I will be there to see them in the future. Yahu'Shua will forgive those who repent, and Yahu'Shua will not forgive those who do not.

But hey, there is no respect of persons "up there". There is respect for those who OBEY, those who "keep the Law" and "Guard the Commands". We are to be taught to "obey all that I have commanded you". And then we are to DO IT.

What you do is only my concern when it comes near the People of God to pollute them. If you stayed away from us, we would have stayed away from you (if we read what we say we do). You infiltrated our country that was set up for OUR FREEDOM of RELIGION, not any religions, but the Religion of the Bible.

In my opinion, repent, getout, or die. Whatever it takes for scum like you to stay away from His People with your abominations against Our Father who IS Your Enemy because YOU have made it so by being enemy to He and His People by your fruits.

How can we come at you with love when you have come to destroy us? We can pray for you and sure enough we do, but we will not just let you speak your abominations to our people and get away with it. Neither will the Father. He has messengers writing the things of you which are against God and you will stand before Him and give your "reasonings".

I have no say, but I indeed cheer Yah onward, with His Greatness True Justice will prevail.

And YOU...GOT NO SAY IN THE MATTER.

So, speak now while you have this flesh you use to provoke Our Father, you won't last. We will go on. And we only have to put up with you for now. You should be repentant, because the Messiah saves your life in this day so you have an opportunity to repent. He told us who follow Him, not to use the sword.

Otherwise, I would be out there choppin' heads. Barbaric, oh yes. Call it retribution for the Children of Yah. But He said, "Revenge is mine, I will repay!"

Since I am SURE He would do it much better than I, and with Heavenly Justice, I'm happy with that. I pray for your repentance, but I also pray for Justice.

I don't want YOU (in your current state), or your "kind" (what ever that is?), who go against God and the nature of mankind, anywhere near me, or His People...And the Elohim (God) of the Entire Creation desires the same for us.

Without repentance you are not welcome at all in my life.

With it, you would be my brother.

But you don't want that do you?

“He who has found his life shall lose it, and he that has lost his life for My sake shall find it."

Think about it.

And don't think that I think you are any worse than any other sinner. They all have the same things coming for their own offenses, unless they too repent, and a lot of them are "christians". Don't feel I pick on only you, I go after all the abominations I can find.

And they are all offered life (unless they have thought to believe they have it already). The same is held against all who disobey. You are not that "special"...but ALL who repent ARE. I want you with the ones who repented.

The one who says "it is ok" inside of you, is the DEVIL. Same guy who goes after us, same reasons. We just know who is who, who gives, and who takes, we choose the "giver of life".

We REPENT, same as you should do. I won't stop you from that, I would invite you instead. "Repent oh sinner so you can be called a brother", that is all a true follower should want of you.

I hate you while you are a sinner because you are full of evil and I hate the evil. I was too, and so were the others who have repented. We were just as glued to whatever sins as you. We just came out when called.

We are no better. But we can't lie to you and pretend things are different than they really are, and are going to be, that would be way worse for us. If we warn you, it is all your fault. If we don't warn you, then WE must pay for what we did not warn you against and your blood is required from us!

Do you even think for one minute that we CAN shut our mouths?

Not a chance. Nor would I want to, it is the truth you are given, suck it up, trust me, it will taste much better than that which now sustains you.

I just hope He has brought you here to "hear" Him. Don't pay attention to "us", pay heed to the Word which He gave, and DO.
 

YahuShuan

New member
America's Criminal Code

You shall not murder. Judges will execute those convicted of murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21, 31; Deut. 19:11-13; 1Ki. 18:22, 39-40; 1 Tim. 1:8-10) including those euthanizing, starving, or aborting (Ex. 21:22-23) human beings from the moment of fertilization to natural death. Judges will flog those guilty of assault and impose restitution for lost income and medical expenses (Ex. 21:18-19), and for permanent injury also require an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, life for life (Lev. 24:19-20). Judges will carry out all corporal and capital punishments swiftly and painfully, within twenty-four hours of conviction; and limit floggings to forty blows (Deut. 25:1-3; Lev. 24:19-20; 19:16-21; 1 Pet. 2:20). Judges will not convict for the use of force in defense of property and the innocent, in escalation to match the perceived threat up to lethal force; nor for purely accidental homicide (Deut. 19:4); will execute those guilty of negligent homicide (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8); and flog those who could have avoided otherwise accidental homicide, and anyone committing revenge killing (Num. 35:26-27) of those guilty of capital crimes.
You shall not commit adultery. Judges will execute those convicted of bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16); those convicted of incest including with in-laws (Lev. 11-12, 14-15, 17, 19-21); of homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22, 29; 20:13); of child molestation; of kidnapping or rape (Ex. 21:15-16; Deut. 22:25-27; 24:7); and of adultery with a married woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14). Judges will flog those convicted of fornication; of public use of vulgar sexual and excretory language; of sexually suggestive dress or behavior; of intoxication; and of possession of pornography. Judges will flog more severely those convicted of transvestism; of public nudity; and of distributing pornography. And judges will flog more severely still those convicted of prostitution; of producing pornography for any use; and of sexual acts in public places.
You shall not steal. Judges will flog and require restitution for convicted thieves, negligent recipients of stolen goods, and those who violate contracts (Deut. 25:1‑3). Judges will impose double restitution for recovered goods, the return of the goods plus one-hundred percent value (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15); quadruple for destroyed or sold goods; quintuple for intellectual, irreplaceable and sentimental goods (Ex. 22:1); seven times for insignificant goods (Prov. 6:30-31); and twenty percent for voluntarily surrendered goods (Lev. 6:1-7). The judge shall impose corporal punishment and life for life penalties for collateral damage from any crime, including bodily injury resulting from the destruction of property which warrants greater than even restitution. A person or his resources causing unforeseeable or unavoidable property damage including by natural disaster without negligence shall pay no restitution, or with negligence shall pay even restitution. Persons taking shared risk shall pay mutual restitution (Ex. 21:32-36; Lev. 24:18). Avoidable accident without negligence, including the malfunction of a maintained resource requires even restitution but with negligence, including by a neglected resource demands double restitution. Gross negligence requires quadruple restitution and intentional destruction demands quintuple restitution. Excepting those executed, judges will sentence those who cannot pay restitution, to indentured servitude for up to seven years with the victim receiving all service or earnings.
You shall not bear false witness. Judges will punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abbeting, attempt, fully as though they had personally committed the crime (Deut. 19:16-21; 2 Sam. 1:15-16; Ex. 20:16). Judges will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander. Judges will flog those in contempt of court, and execute those guilty of treason and violators of court orders which protect victims (Deut. 17:12-13). A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is guilty the moment he commits a crime, but presumed innocent (Deut. 22:22-27) in court until convicted. Convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty are equally unjust (Pro. 17:15). A judge at his discretion, suspends the rights of liberty including the use of weapons, for the credibly accused, and mandatorily confines one facing a likely sentence of maiming or capital punishment, until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence, shall suffice for conviction; individual rights shall not supersede the judge's God-given right to impose punishment on the guilty. Judges shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; may observe and advise other judges during trial [B P]; shall not allow witnesses to swear or give an oath (James 5:12, Mat. 5:34-37; 2 Cor. 1:17); and shall question witnesses directly. Judges shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; shall permit witnesses and victims to participate in punishment (Deut. 13:9; 17:7); and shall show no mercy to the guilty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).
America's Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.

If I might ask Lighthouse...Where is a provision for repentance as would come from the "Bible" if they used it properly to forge this document? God offers forgiveness through repentance by the Messiah...Where is it?
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
I don't want to live in a 'nanny' state for starters, it's bad enough as it is....
You don't want to live under God's rule, period.

Because I dont remotely believe it was intended to be, sometimes it seems as though the NT is an inconvenience for those who would have us live under mosaic law.....
The Sabbath is no longer applicable. The laws for priests are no longer applicable. The law on murder is. So is the law on rape.

You don't disagree with any of that. So your argument that we should not live under any of the Mosaic law is moot. The fact that it happens to be in the Mosaic law is irrelevant. Try an argument with some substance. All this, "that was for then," crap is getting old.

Well do a bit of research, some of their methods were hideous....
And nobody was proposing any of their methods, were we? Move on.

Look, if you're gonna use the title of a song - "I hate everything about you" then that is pretty absolute :dizzy:
What of it?

I was honest with you and will be so again, if you don't like the answer then fine but dispense with this 'obfuscation' rubbish....
many things are unacceptable now that would have been a hundred years ago or more, times move on, people progress, as a race we've (hopefully for the most part) advanced beyond the medieval ages where we respect life more and have less tolerance for any type of mindless torture or cruelty, I admitted to you that I don't understand why the DP was mandated for OT times as I'm a modern civillian, I can only accept that things were very much different then all round and that many aspects of life were a lot harsher than what they are now, the difference is I dont want to go backwards to a more brutal age but forwards, and whatever you have to say about my stance I will go along with what Jesus said to a self righteous mob who were convicted by their conscience (not the law) to wander off from a scenario in which you would seemingly have us return to
Honest? You? Liar! You are completely dishonest! Not only with me, but with everyone here, with God and most of all yourself.

But God, knowing all He knew would have known that certain things would be barbaric, did He not? So if it was such a barbaric practice, why did He command it? Because it wasn't barbaric then? Bull! God's not dense!

The only thing you don't want to return to is God!

There is no 'courage' in bludgeoning a helpless terrified person to death as you inferred to me beacuse I wouldnt have the 'spine' to do it....
What you don't have the spine for is to follow God.

America's Criminal Code

You shall not murder. Judges will execute those convicted of murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14; 20:13; Lev. 24:17, 21; Num. 35:16-21, 31; Deut. 19:11-13; 1Ki. 18:22, 39-40; 1 Tim. 1:8-10) including those euthanizing, starving, or aborting (Ex. 21:22-23) human beings from the moment of fertilization to natural death. Judges will flog those guilty of assault and impose restitution for lost income and medical expenses (Ex. 21:18-19), and for permanent injury also require an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, life for life (Lev. 24:19-20). Judges will carry out all corporal and capital punishments swiftly and painfully, within twenty-four hours of conviction; and limit floggings to forty blows (Deut. 25:1-3; Lev. 24:19-20; 19:16-21; 1 Pet. 2:20). Judges will not convict for the use of force in defense of property and the innocent, in escalation to match the perceived threat up to lethal force; nor for purely accidental homicide (Deut. 19:4); will execute those guilty of negligent homicide (Ex. 21:28-30; Deut. 22:8); and flog those who could have avoided otherwise accidental homicide, and anyone committing revenge killing (Num. 35:26-27) of those guilty of capital crimes.
You shall not commit adultery. Judges will execute those convicted of bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 20:15-16); those convicted of incest including with in-laws (Lev. 11-12, 14-15, 17, 19-21); of homosexual acts (Lev. 18:22, 29; 20:13); of child molestation; of kidnapping or rape (Ex. 21:15-16; Deut. 22:25-27; 24:7); and of adultery with a married woman (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22; Ex. 20:14). Judges will flog those convicted of fornication; of public use of vulgar sexual and excretory language; of sexually suggestive dress or behavior; of intoxication; and of possession of pornography. Judges will flog more severely those convicted of transvestism; of public nudity; and of distributing pornography. And judges will flog more severely still those convicted of prostitution; of producing pornography for any use; and of sexual acts in public places.
You shall not steal. Judges will flog and require restitution for convicted thieves, negligent recipients of stolen goods, and those who violate contracts (Deut. 25:1‑3). Judges will impose double restitution for recovered goods, the return of the goods plus one-hundred percent value (Ex. 22:4, 7-9; 20:15); quadruple for destroyed or sold goods; quintuple for intellectual, irreplaceable and sentimental goods (Ex. 22:1); seven times for insignificant goods (Prov. 6:30-31); and twenty percent for voluntarily surrendered goods (Lev. 6:1-7). The judge shall impose corporal punishment and life for life penalties for collateral damage from any crime, including bodily injury resulting from the destruction of property which warrants greater than even restitution. A person or his resources causing unforeseeable or unavoidable property damage including by natural disaster without negligence shall pay no restitution, or with negligence shall pay even restitution. Persons taking shared risk shall pay mutual restitution (Ex. 21:32-36; Lev. 24:18). Avoidable accident without negligence, including the malfunction of a maintained resource requires even restitution but with negligence, including by a neglected resource demands double restitution. Gross negligence requires quadruple restitution and intentional destruction demands quintuple restitution. Excepting those executed, judges will sentence those who cannot pay restitution, to indentured servitude for up to seven years with the victim receiving all service or earnings.
You shall not bear false witness. Judges will punish those convicted of perjury, false confession, credible threat, conspiracy, abbeting, attempt, fully as though they had personally committed the crime (Deut. 19:16-21; 2 Sam. 1:15-16; Ex. 20:16). Judges will flog and impose restitution on those convicted of slander. Judges will flog those in contempt of court, and execute those guilty of treason and violators of court orders which protect victims (Deut. 17:12-13). A man is not innocent until proven guilty. He is guilty the moment he commits a crime, but presumed innocent (Deut. 22:22-27) in court until convicted. Convicting the innocent and acquitting the guilty are equally unjust (Pro. 17:15). A judge at his discretion, suspends the rights of liberty including the use of weapons, for the credibly accused, and mandatorily confines one facing a likely sentence of maiming or capital punishment, until the rendering of a verdict. Reasonable evidence from two or three witnesses, whether from eyewitnesses, physical, or strong circumstantial evidence, shall suffice for conviction; individual rights shall not supersede the judge's God-given right to impose punishment on the guilty. Judges shall not grant nor have special immunity from prosecution; shall not give more lenient punishment to minors; shall not give special recognition to lawyers or experts in the law; may observe and advise other judges during trial [B P]; shall not allow witnesses to swear or give an oath (James 5:12, Mat. 5:34-37; 2 Cor. 1:17); and shall question witnesses directly. Judges shall not accept no-contest pleas or bargains; shall punish criminals for all collateral damage; shall permit witnesses and victims to participate in punishment (Deut. 13:9; 17:7); and shall show no mercy to the guilty (Num. 35:31; Deut. 19:13, 21; Pro. 6:30-31).
America's Criminal Code shall be enforced by the King as authorized in The Constitution of America.

If I might ask Lighthouse...Where is a provision for repentance as would come from the "Bible" if they used it properly to forge this document? God offers forgiveness through repentance by the Messiah...Where is it?
There is forgiveness for sins. But not for crimes. Even if they repent, they should still have the backbone to pay the price.

As Paul said:
“I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”
-
Acts 25:10-11
 

YahuShuan

New member
You don't want to live under God's rule, period.


The Sabbath is no longer applicable. The laws for priests are no longer applicable. The law on murder is. So is the law on rape.

You don't disagree with any of that. So your argument that we should not live under any of the Mosaic law is moot. The fact that it happens to be in the Mosaic law is irrelevant. Try an argument with some substance. All this, "that was for then," crap is getting old.


And nobody was proposing any of their methods, were we? Move on.


What of it?


Honest? You? Liar! You are completely dishonest! Not only with me, but with everyone here, with God and most of all yourself.

But God, knowing all He knew would have known that certain things would be barbaric, did He not? So if it was such a barbaric practice, why did He command it? Because it wasn't barbaric then? Bull! God's not dense!

The only thing you don't want to return to is God!


What you don't have the spine for is to follow God.


There is forgiveness for sins. But not for crimes. Even if they repent, they should still have the backbone to pay the price.

As Paul said:
“I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”
-
Acts 25:10-11

But, what did the Messiah say?
 

red77

New member
You don't want to live under God's rule, period.


The Sabbath is no longer applicable. The laws for priests are no longer applicable. The law on murder is. So is the law on rape.

You don't disagree with any of that. So your argument that we should not live under any of the Mosaic law is moot. The fact that it happens to be in the Mosaic law is irrelevant. Try an argument with some substance. All this, "that was for then," crap is getting old.


And nobody was proposing any of their methods, were we? Move on.


What of it?


Honest? You? Liar! You are completely dishonest! Not only with me, but with everyone here, with God and most of all yourself.

But God, knowing all He knew would have known that certain things would be barbaric, did He not? So if it was such a barbaric practice, why did He command it? Because it wasn't barbaric then? Bull! God's not dense!

The only thing you don't want to return to is God!


What you don't have the spine for is to follow God.


There is forgiveness for sins. But not for crimes. Even if they repent, they should still have the backbone to pay the price.

As Paul said:
“I stand at Caesar’s judgment seat, where I ought to be judged. To the Jews I have done no wrong, as you very well know. For if I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them. I appeal to Caesar.”
-
Acts 25:10-11

i'm just not interested anymore LH, if you want us to live in a society where stoning people to death is the 'way forward' for their private lives then "bully" for you, because thats all you'll be....

Plenty of other people have pointed out why mosaic law doesnt apply anymore and yet you (and others) seem content to wish it to be back in force, I'm only thankful that it's not going to happen and that people can actually progress away from barbarism,

If not stoning a helpless person to death makes me "spineless" then I could care less what you think LH, legalism and cold pomposity dont do much for me and I'm fed up of going around in circles....

Believe as you will, thankfully the society you seem to envisage has got practically 0 chance of coming into effect.....
 

YahuShuan

New member
[Jesus]"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."[/Jesus]
-Jesus [Matthew 5:17]

"The Scriptures" say almost the same thing...
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.

I'm no linguist, so I leave that to the scholars. But I live under Yah/Yahuweh/Yahu'Shuan Rule, Yes:)
 

muffinman

New member
I came here hoping to find some constructive debate built in a framework of religious beliefs but grounded in reality, what I found was a free-wheeling argument over ideas that are no longer applicable to modern societies. Arguing over semantics isn't helping, and I have yet to see anyone argue outside of the bounds of scripture.

Suggesting that gays should be killed for just being who they are is an insane proposition that cannot be defended; though some people are trying mighty hard. You are no longer dealing with merely shunning people away from Christian society, you're playing God with people's lives. Quoting scripture, while a cute exercise in recitation, has never been and will never be an acceptable reason for condemning an individual to death.
 

Mim...

New member
I'm a bit late here, but....

Why is homosexuality wrong and immoral? I've only seen two reasons given here, and neither are sufficient.

One is: "Because God said it is". That is just empty. As so many of you seem to claim, God's word is the ultimate wisdom, but surely then he has reasons for it being immoral. And they are.... ?

The other is: "Because it spreads AIDS". But if AIDS is just a punishment for the immoral act, then the act would not have been immoral until AIDS came about, and you get a chicken and egg situation.
 

Pythia

New member
I do not think that Christians or anyone else for that matter are obligated to approve of homosexuality. As long as they aren't destroying someone's property or engangering their lives, people should be free to hate or disapprove of gays all they want. So go ahead, spew away. Since I'm a liberal, freedom of expression-loving kind of gal, I'm even all for their right to carry signs that say 'God Hates Fags' and share their opinions that gays should get the death penalty in any public forum they please.

The only thing I can't agree with is legally allowing them to actually carry out such executions, because having subjective religious beliefs to be imposed on everyone through force of law (especially when it comes to using such belliefs to take another person's life) is theocratic, fascist, and pretty damn well contrary to the more positive values this country is supposed to stand for like freedom of conscience, not to mention life and liberty.

I have a real problem with people who are not content to have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else but demand more for themselves while they turn around and lobby towards less for others, in this case to the point of presuming they alone deserve the power to be judge and jury over someone's very life simply because they have a preference their subjective beliefs and opinions do not approve of.

It adds insult to injury that many of the people I've come across who have the most knee jerk and outraged reactions to even the slightest perception of the expression of their own faith and worldview being supressed are the same ones to support the most blatant censorship and in some cases outright opression and persecution of people who are different than them, especially the kind of groups that are already margainalized.

I am not for thought policing or political correctness. People should be free to disagree, disapprove, even verbally or otherwise nonviolently persecute other people if that kind of petty bigotry makes them feel truly righteous. When it comes to imposing someone's personal intepretation of that which can neither be proven or disproven as legal writ that intrudes on everyone else's life, thats where I draw the line.
 

red77

New member
I do not think that Christians or anyone else for that matter are obligated to approve of homosexuality. As long as they aren't destroying someone's property or engangering their lives, people should be free to hate or disapprove of gays all they want. So go ahead, spew away. Since I'm a liberal, freedom of expression-loving kind of gal, I'm even all for their right to carry signs that say 'God Hates Fags' and share their opinions that gays should get the death penalty in any public forum they please.

The only thing I can't agree with is legally allowing them to actually carry out such executions, because having subjective religious beliefs to be imposed on everyone through force of law (especially when it comes to using such belliefs to take another person's life) is theocratic, fascist, and pretty damn well contrary to the more positive values this country is supposed to stand for like freedom of conscience, not to mention life and liberty.

I have a real problem with people who are not content to have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else but demand more for themselves while they turn around and lobby towards less for others, in this case to the point of presuming they alone deserve the power to be judge and jury over someone's very life simply because they have a preference their subjective beliefs and opinions do not approve of.

It adds insult to injury that many of the people I've come across who have the most knee jerk and outraged reactions to even the slightest perception of the expression of their own faith and worldview being supressed are the same ones to support the most blatant censorship and in some cases outright opression and persecution of people who are different than them, especially the kind of groups that are already margainalized.

I am not for thought policing or political correctness. People should be free to disagree, disapprove, even verbally or otherwise nonviolently persecute other people if that kind of petty bigotry makes them feel truly righteous. When it comes to imposing someone's personal intepretation of that which can neither be proven or disproven as legal writ that intrudes on everyone else's life, thats where I draw the line.

Good post :up:

I also believe in freedom of expression no matter how distasteful i may find it personally, I find censorship of expression to be one of the most repugnant restrictions that any society can have, as long as noone's life is being intruded upon or violated in any way then it's fair enough....
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
i'm just not interested anymore LH, if you want us to live in a society where stoning people to death is the 'way forward' for their private lives then "bully" for you, because thats all you'll be....
Some things are so wrong, that "private lives" are no longer an option. Some things are so immoral that those who commit them are, in effect, forsaking their right to privacy. And Adultery is one of those things.

Plenty of other people have pointed out why mosaic law doesnt apply anymore and yet you (and others) seem content to wish it to be back in force, I'm only thankful that it's not going to happen and that people can actually progress away from barbarism,
No one can give any support as to why certain aspects of that law should no longer apply. In fact, as has been established, everyone agrees that certain laws that happen to be in that code are good for all societies, and should be laws everywhere, such as "Do not murder." No one here thinks that murder should be legal. And they all think it should be punishable in some way. Even those who argue against the death penalty on the grounds that Jesus died for our sins. Of course, they fail in that because they contradict themselves when they say those people should be punished. Because the bottom line is that Jesus not only died for our sins, He was punished for them too. And they also fail in that it was for our sins that He died, and not our crimes. And in the end, the only thing anyone seems to really have a problem with is the idea that adultery and homosexuality should be illegal, let alone punishable by execution. And your argument that it's barbaric now, and wasn't barbaric then is a load of crap. And you can't logically back it up.

And the reason I call you idiot, moron, twit, etc. is not because you disagree with me, but because you don't even take the time to think things through. You don't even try to consider how adultery, murder because of adultery, and divorce because of adultery would go down. Liberals are very fond of calling conservatives "reactionary." But when it comes down to it, they are the ones who are reacting without thinking. And by "they," I mean you.

If not stoning a helpless person to death makes me "spineless" then I could care less what you think LH, legalism and cold pomposity dont do much for me and I'm fed up of going around in circles....
What makes you spineless is your refusal to stand up for God's command. And the fact that you can't even say that God was barbaric for commanding something you consider to be barbaric.

Believe as you will, thankfully the society you seem to envisage has got practically 0 chance of coming into effect.....
If the Muslims take over, then it will be beyond what I believe God wants.

I came here hoping to find some constructive debate built in a framework of religious beliefs but grounded in reality, what I found was a free-wheeling argument over ideas that are no longer applicable to modern societies. Arguing over semantics isn't helping, and I have yet to see anyone argue outside of the bounds of scripture.
Then you haven't read very much of it at all. And would you care to back up how God's commands are no longer applicable?

Suggesting that gays should be killed for just being who they are is an insane proposition that cannot be defended; though some people are trying mighty hard. You are no longer dealing with merely shunning people away from Christian society, you're playing God with people's lives. Quoting scripture, while a cute exercise in recitation, has never been and will never be an acceptable reason for condemning an individual to death.
Just for being who they are? No. That's not the case. And never was. In fact, no one should be /punished/executed for being attracted to the same gender. Just like no one should be punished/executed for lusting after someone who is not their spouse. While both are wrong, they should not be crimes. It is only when one acts on these that they need to be punished, in whichever way God says. Why? Because God knows best. He certainly knows better than any of us. Otherwise He would not be God. In the end, I don't even want some of these things to be laws, personally. But I know that God knows better than me, so I surrender to Him.

I'm a bit late here, but....

Why is homosexuality wrong and immoral? I've only seen two reasons given here, and neither are sufficient.

One is: "Because God said it is". That is just empty. As so many of you seem to claim, God's word is the ultimate wisdom, but surely then he has reasons for it being immoral. And they are.... ?
It degrades society, for one. Also, God created us to be man+woman, and no other way. He wants us to "be fruitful and multiply." Two people of the same gender cannot do that, no way, no how. And the lifestyle led by most homosexuals is perverse beyond what I even want to think about. But they throw it in our faces anyway. It is rude, disgusting, and socially destructive. It is one of the reasons the family structure is no longer respected by most people in this world.

The other is: "Because it spreads AIDS". But if AIDS is just a punishment for the immoral act, then the act would not have been immoral until AIDS came about, and you get a chicken and egg situation.
It's not a punishment. Nor is what you said even a logical argument. It was immoral. People kept doing it. If AIDS was a punishment, it would be because it was already immoral, and people kept doing it. When your kids misbehave it doesn't become wrong for them to do what they did when you discipline them. You discipline them because it was wrong for them to do what they did. End of story.

I do not think that Christians or anyone else for that matter are obligated to approve of homosexuality. As long as they aren't destroying someone's property or engangering their lives, people should be free to hate or disapprove of gays all they want. So go ahead, spew away. Since I'm a liberal, freedom of expression-loving kind of gal, I'm even all for their right to carry signs that say 'God Hates Fags' and share their opinions that gays should get the death penalty in any public forum they please.
OK

The only thing I can't agree with is legally allowing them to actually carry out such executions, because having subjective religious beliefs to be imposed on everyone through force of law (especially when it comes to using such belliefs to take another person's life) is theocratic, fascist, and pretty damn well contrary to the more positive values this country is supposed to stand for like freedom of conscience, not to mention life and liberty.
And what if it's not for religious reasons? What if it's for social reasons? What if homosexual acts really are criminal?

I have a real problem with people who are not content to have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else but demand more for themselves while they turn around and lobby towards less for others, in this case to the point of presuming they alone deserve the power to be judge and jury over someone's very life simply because they have a preference their subjective beliefs and opinions do not approve of.
I don't want the right to execute people for these things. But God said they should be executed. All I want is for the rights of God to be recognized. He is the Creator of all of us, after all.

It adds insult to injury that many of the people I've come across who have the most knee jerk and outraged reactions to even the slightest perception of the expression of their own faith and worldview being supressed are the same ones to support the most blatant censorship and in some cases outright opression and persecution of people who are different than them, especially the kind of groups that are already margainalized.
The only people with the knee jerk reactions are the ones who hear what is said, and jump against it immediately without thinking about what it means, and why people are saying it. Or why God said it, actually. And that would be people like you. As we see here.

I am not for thought policing or political correctness. People should be free to disagree, disapprove, even verbally or otherwise nonviolently persecute other people if that kind of petty bigotry makes them feel truly righteous. When it comes to imposing someone's personal intepretation of that which can neither be proven or disproven as legal writ that intrudes on everyone else's life, thats where I draw the line.
So, what should be illegal then? And why? What should be the punishment? Why?
 

Pythia

New member
Sorry this post is such a mess. I'm new to the forums and haven't quite figured out how to snip quotes from posts and their replies (sorry, been up late and I'm tired)...so I just alternated font colors and hopefully its intelligible.

<<Quote (Me):
The only thing I can't agree with is legally allowing them to actually carry out such executions, because having subjective religious beliefs to be imposed on everyone through force of law (especially when it comes to using such belliefs to take another person's life) is theocratic, fascist, and pretty damn well contrary to the more positive values this country is supposed to stand for like freedom of conscience, not to mention life and liberty. >>


Quote (Lite): And what if it's not for religious reasons? What if it's for social reasons? What if homosexual acts really are criminal?>>

I can see no pragmatic social benefit in criminalizing homosexuality. Only if its a case of rape or abuse, and neither of those are commited exclusively by homosexuals, they are just as prevailant if not moreso amongst people who identify themselves as straight.

<<QUOTE(Lite)I don't want the right to execute people for these things. But God said they should be executed. All I want is for the rights of God to be recognized. He is the Creator of all of us, after all.>>

That is implying that the subjective beliefs of your religion should be legislated by law as if this were a theocracy. Well sorry, this isn't a theocracy. Muslims and I'm sure all kinds of really fringe sects out there believe in all sorts of do's and donts and shall nots, many of which I'm sure you wouldn't agree with or want legislated. A society like ours that respects freedom of religion and conscience cannot and should not pick and choose which religious laws to put on the books and which not to, since none of them can be proven or disproven as divinely inspired anyhow and there's no objective way to establish that one is more likely to be true than the next. That is just one legal morass waiting to happen, its impractical, totally unfair and flagratly unamerican.

<<QUOTE(lite)[The only people with the knee jerk reactions are the ones who hear what is said, and jump against it immediately without thinking about what it means, and why people are saying it. Or why God said it, actually./COLOR]

You are free to believe that 'God said it', but in case you haven't noticed not everyone shares that belief...I hope you have thought about that. You're putting me in the same position as you yourself would be in if a Muslim said that this country should pass a law requiring you to wear a burka because THEY believe that their god says you should. Of course you don't believe that and would oppose such a law.

<<QUOTE>>(lite)So, what should be illegal then? And why? What should be the punishment? Why?

I can see where this is going, the old conflict between moral absolutism and moral pragmatism/relativism/social contract worldview. I realize that you believe that morals are absolute and that they come from the god of the Bible. All I can do is agree to disagree with you on that one. In my view civic codes of behavior are a matter of nessecity more than anything else, to keep general order and quality of life.

Things that should be deemed criminal in my view are mainly those which deal with violating a person's free will, maliciously threaten their life against their will, steal or destroy their property against their will, etc.

I cannot see any practical reason to criminalize sexual preference when its between consenting persons of legal age, where no one is being harmed against their will, when its a private matter between adults.

You might view flamboyant artistic people with good taste in home decorating and fashion who enjoy show tunes as some kind of dire threat to the well being of society all you want, but I can't think of one justifiable reason to criminalize them. And I do think these things through.
 
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