Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Tambora]

Well, I quit doing TV

Quitter.

 

[fzappa13]

Quitter.

My favorite line out of "Desiderata" is ... "Surrender gracefully the things of youth."

 

[Town Heretic]

But getting back to one of a few patently false declarations by IMJ concerning my particular stance:

Just as I can't ignore your repeatedly offensive statements regarding Native Americans.

Never happened. It's like your claim about my calling state's rights evil. It's a thing inside your head.

Let's look at my repeatedly offensive statements relating to Native Americans here.

...It flew over 100 years of slavery, and Native Americans were annihilated under that flag."

It flew over a war between combatants with a deplorable history between them. The more empowered, the winner of that conflict was largely indifferent, at best, to the plight of the conquered combatant. It's not a proud moment in our national history.

That can't be it...

...And I can't speak for every Native American

If you haven't been elected and/or aren't Native American you can't speak for any.

but I suspect there's more than a few of them who would state unequivocally that the Indian Nation has not received its due under the American flag.

But you don't really have to speak for them to speculate and I think you're probably right on the point.

That doesn't sound like it either.

When one sees the photos of mass graves dug for Native Americans and considers the countless treaties broken by our government, it's kinda hard to ignore the similarities to the acts of Nazi Germany.

Similarity is a dangerously loose word. What isn't ambiguous is Hitler's plan to exterminate the Jew. You won't find a similar document of intent on the part of this nation, horrific treatment, abuse and indifference notwithstanding.

Nope...

It can't be the thread where I repeatedly defended Native Americans objecting to the term Redskins and noted the long standing racist and ill treatment of the population...maybe you were thinking of someone else...or just being crazy. :idunno:

 

[IMJerusha]

Likely, but that's not a federal program to eradicate the Native American population, is it.

When 50 states had eugenics programs, and the Supreme Court supported it, I'd say that's pretty federal. Did all 50 states use the program to attempt to eradicate Native Americans?...No, but those with measurable Native American populations used the program against them.

He might think I'd have made a great tenor too, but with about as much to sustain the idea.

He's not a tenor, but he is of Native American descent and that gives his opinion regarding Native American anti-sentiment some weight especially since his own family members came under attack in Vermont and were forced to leave, settling in Ohio.

That's not something unique to Native American culture.

I'm beginning to wonder.

And it's too often used as part of the noble savage stereotype,

The what?..."noble savage!" My goodness, more revelation! But, I understand, you don't consider words like this offensive. I personally think it's tantamount to calling a black man a noble...well, I'll leave words like that to Paula Deen.

...that is about as accurate a notion as most stereotypes.

Such as "noble savage?" You're a mess, Brother!

It's valuable to the people who are employed and the people who benefit from the revenue.

Most of which aren't Native American. The gaming industry is a blight on Native American culture. "When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you can not eat money." -- Cree prophecy

You'd used the word productive.

And I meant productive in a positive light. There is nothing positive about the gaming industry.

The makers of that flag differed with you. And its use since hasn't reformed the image.

If no black man ever willingly carried that flag, I might agree with you but such is not the case. Liberals have reformed the image of the Confederate flag to suit their agenda.

No, it's appropriate given what you'd been up to, the habit of putting words in my mouth that weren't from it and your response to being called on it, challenged for quotes by a general declaration of how you felt about my comments...

This is your mantra Town. You deny what is plainly there especially when someone holds it up before your eyes. It doesn't give you credence or change the meaning of your words or make your words go away so I have no idea why you persist with it.

We aren't arguing.

Oh yes, we most certainly are!

I set out facts and you've tried to start a hundred fires that don't alter them.

You haven't set out facts. I have posted facts which you have denied, dismissed, done a dance around or flat ignored. That is what you do and that's fine but it certainly doesn't paste you as anything other than a Liberal who denies the truth.

 

[rexlunae]

When 50 states had eugenics programs, and the Supreme Court supported it, I'd say that's pretty federal.

And you would be wrong. That isn't what federal means. The Federal government is separate from any state or even all combined.

 

[IMJerusha]

It can't be the thread where I repeatedly defended Native Americans objecting to the term Redskins

You mean the thread wherein I explained to you that my family is Native American? You see, this is what you do, Town, and the doing is every bit as offensive as your words in this thread. You have used the previous knowledge of my family to purposefully weave your posts with offensive thread and then you deny the use of it. It would be humorous if it didn't paint you so sadly. You weren't defending Native Americans, btw. You were obliging people who have fallen for the Liberal agenda.

and noted the long standing racist and ill treatment of the population...

Such as the use of the racist phrase "noble savage" or the denial of Native American genocide. Those were just atrocities. You're such a good friend to the Native American you helped them in their gaming endeavors just like the French taught them to count coup with scalps; the same sort of friend to Southerners having pride in their Confederate ancestors and Christians zealous in their faith.

maybe you were thinking of someone else

No, I pegged you just as you are.

...or just being crazy.

Yes, crazy like a fox.

:idunno:

Uh huh, enjoy that!

 

[IMJerusha]

And you would be wrong. That isn't what federal means. The Federal government is separate from any state or even all combined.

When the Supreme Court judged eugenics to be Constitutional, they gave eugenics federal approval.

 

[Town Heretic]

When 50 states had eugenics programs, and the Supreme Court supported it, I'd say that's pretty federal.

No, but rex already took that one, so I'll leave it with his answer.

He's not a tenor,

More creative reading. I said he might think that I was a tenor, but implied he'd have as much reason to think it as he did the other bit.

but he is of Native American descent and that gives his opinion regarding Native American anti-sentiment some weight

No, unless you think Native Americans can't be as mistaken or prone to bias driven error as anyone else. In this case, since nothing I wrote would sustain the feeling I count that impulse as a natural bias toward you and in defense of you, which is hard to slight in any man even as deeply mistaken as it is.

The what?..."noble savage!" My goodness, more revelation!

Sure seems that way out of context. Let's see what happens when it's put back in.

But, I understand, you don't consider words like this offensive.

I consider people like you offensive, who rush to try to pin something that isn't applicable instead of reading to understand a thing. But let's get back to you being misleading.

Such as "noble savage?" You're a mess, Brother!

You broke that in half as though I'd defamed on the one hand and you'd reminded me of it later on the other. But that's not what happened, as we'll see in a moment.

Here's the quote in full including your bit that inspired it:

...The value of the Native American early or otherwise is in their knowledge of and reverence for all life

That's not something unique to Native American culture. And it's too often used as part of the noble savage stereotype, that is about as accurate a notion as most stereotypes.

See, when you put it together it's hard to miss what I'm actually saying and how that isn't what you're trying to cobble from it.

Most of which aren't Native American.

Right. Productive in the larger cultural sense, which was exactly how I aimed it.

The gaming industry is a blight on Native American culture.

It isn't here. Call the Porch Creek Nations and ask around.

"When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you can not eat money." -- Cree prophecy

A penny saved is a penny earned. old English Proverb.

And I meant productive in a positive light. There is nothing positive about the gaming industry.

I meant it that way too. We differ.

If no black man ever willingly carried that flag, I might agree with you but such is not the case.

Agree or not, I only care that someone points out you don't know what you're talking about and that the Confederate flag was a symbol of the slave state no matter who fought for it or waved it in the breeze.

Liberals have reformed the image of the Confederate flag to suit their agenda.

No, history has done that without them having to lift a pen, though those who ended slavery were liberals in their day, just as those who championed the Civil Rights Movement were liberals in theirs. It's in the nature of the conservative to hold onto the status quo, for good an ill.

This is your mantra Town.

It's the demonstrable truth, which is why I said put up the quotes, knowing you wouldn't, couldn't and so never will...still aren't as you scramble to justify what you should have owned.

You deny what is plainly there especially when someone holds it up before your eyes. It doesn't give you credence or change the meaning of your words

Produce the words you think I've changed. When you say I called state's rights an evil, well, that's just a lie. Your pronouncements about my attitude with Native Americans are no better, which is why I went back an chronicled them.

You haven't set out facts.

And that's a lie. Anyone who wants to go back can find multiple posts where I set out historical fact, citing the very declarations of the seceding states on the foundation of the war, the commentary in letter of the ambassadors seeking to join those slave states together, etc. I also noted how that flag resurfaced in more modern times to oppose civil rights advances for blacks, from troop integration to voting rights.

I have posted facts which you have denied, dismissed, done a dance around or flat ignored.

No. I've met you at every reasonable point and noted a great deal of advance that really didn't impact the point. But feel free to repost anything you felt was overlooked.

That is what you do and that's fine but it certainly doesn't paste you as anything other than a Liberal who denies the truth.

I'm not a liberal. Were I, I'd have no problem defending it. Unpopular positions don't cause me discomfort. But this is just you trying to do by taint what you can't do rationally, which now appears habitual.

 

[Town Heretic]

...You see, this is what you do, Town,

Yes. I put out the literal quotes of me addressing the thing you mischaracterized and noted an earlier thread where more than a few conservatives were attempting to label me as hypersensitive to the Native American response, in general, to an offensive term.

You have used the previous knowledge of my family to purposefully weave your posts with offensive thread and then you deny the use of it.

Well, no, I don't actually recall much of what you had to say in that thread (and what I do recall only by your jogging my memory that you were a part of it) and don't think of you beyond what you put in front of me to answer here.

...You weren't defending Native Americans, btw.

Sure I was. I set out links to polling on the point. The majority of Native Americans found the use of the term by outsiders offensive. A large number found the use offensive even within the Nations. I think at the time I compared it to a similar divide among blacks regarding the n-bomb.

Such as the use of the racist phrase "noble savage"

Here's the actual use I made of the thread, again:

...The value of the Native American early or otherwise is in their knowledge of and reverence for all life

That's not something unique to Native American culture. And it's too often used as part of the noble savage stereotype, that is about as accurate a notion as most stereotypes.

or the denial of Native American genocide.

There was no Native American genocide. There wasn't a federal attempt to eradicate the Native American. I've spoken to that and the the embarrassing, horrific and at best indifferent treatment of Native Americans by their conquerors.

You're such a good friend to the Native American you helped them in their gaming endeavors

See? There you go again. I didn't say I helped them in their gaming endeavors. That wasn't my relation to them, professionally. (redacted what I actually did for them given your treatment and assumptions don't warrant the explanation)

No, I pegged you just as you are.

I'm not even sure at this point you see yourself clearly.

...Uh huh, enjoy that!

The sincere smilie is a dead giveaway...seventy dollars. lain: (old joke involving raised leather binding)

 

[IMJerusha]

No, but rex already took that one, so I'll leave it with his answer.

Sure, although he was wrong, it suits you.

More creative reading. I said he might think that I was a tenor, but implied he'd have as much reason to think it as he did the other bit.
It doesn't with regard to me. I suspect it's more his sentiment in regard to you that's coloring it and I can't blame a man for defending his wife in almost any context.

Then your suspicions would be wrong. I have no need of his defense from you and he knows it.

Sure seems that way out of context. Let's see what happens when it's put back in.

No let's keep the context where it was. The context was the discussion of Native Americans.

I consider people like you offensive, who rush to try to pin something that isn't applicable instead of reading to understand a thing. But let's get back to you being misleading.

I'm sure you'll get over it, if indeed you even care.

At this point it's hard to think of you as an honest person. You broke that in half as though I'd defamed on the one hand and you'd reminded me of it later on the other.

I did what you taught me to do, Town. As I recall, you bragged that it was the best approach in posting against someone. Are you now stating that approach is dishonest?

Here's the quote in full including your bit that inspired it:

See, when you put it together it's hard to miss what I'm actually saying and how that isn't what you're trying to cobble from it.

Actually, I still see that you used the words "noble savage" much the same way that Paula Deen used her ill begotten word. Just as she couldn't, you can't justify that descriptor in any context.

Right. Productive in the larger cultural sense, which was exactly how I aimed it.

You aimed it at Native American culture.

It isn't here. Call the Porch Creek Nations and ask around.

That's Poarch, Town, and ask them what?...if they still live their culture or how many have lost their familial records due to the eugenics practiced in Alabama and Georgia?

A penny saved is a penny earned. old English Proverb.

You see how you separated my words from the quote? Yep, just like you taught me! So, that's dishonest, eh?

I meant it that way too. We differ.

You're doggone right, we do, and I am feeling very blessed right now.

Agree or not, I only care that someone points out you don't know what you're talking about and that the Confederate flag was a symbol of the slave state no matter who fought for it or waved it in the breeze.

Your problem is that I don't stand alone in my assessment that the flag represents a group of states who believed in their right under the Constitution to self govern.

No, history has done that without them having to lift a pen,

If that were the case there would be no discussion here and there certainly wouldn't have ever been a Confederate flag flying over several capitals of the South long after the Civil Rights movement and there would have been no need for the congregation of black men standing with the flag in hand in defiance of the order to remove it.

though those who ended slavery were liberals in their day, just as those who championed the Civil Rights Movement were liberals in theirs.

I'm not speaking of Liberals of those days. I'm speaking of Liberals today who bear very little resemblance to the Liberals of Civil War or even Civil Rights days.

 

[IMJerusha]

It's in the nature of the conservative to hold onto the status quo, for good an ill.

Meaning that Conservatives are pro-slavery?

It's the demonstrable truth, which is why I said put up the quotes, knowing you wouldn't, couldn't and so never will...still aren't as you scramble to justify what you should have owned.

What is demonstrable is that you can plainly state something without really stating it outright, a sad misuse of your training. In other words, I can only go back and bring forth your words entoto, encompassing huge amounts of text as our conversation has been ongoing for quite a while. Now, I can go back and get the links and I have been known to do that in the past. Is that what you would like me to do?

Produce the words you think I've changed. When you say I called state's rights an evil, well, that's just a lie.

No, it's not but I guess you won't be satisfied until I retrieve and rehash everything with you.

Your pronouncements about my attitude with Native Americans is no better, which is why I went back an chronicled them.

You actually didn't defend yourself well on that point either for the very same reason that I have stated above. The training you employed prevents you from defending yourself in the same manner it prevents me from quoting you.

And that's a lie.

No, it's not.

Anyone who wants to go back can find multiple posts where I set out historical fact, citing the very declarations of the seceding states on the foundation of the war, the commentary in letter of the ambassadors seeking to join those slave states together, etc. I also noted how that flag resurfaced in more modern times to oppose civil rights advances for blacks, from troop integration to voting rights.

I hope they do. I hope they see the documentation and quotes from particular individuals that I have brought forth in support of states rights and individual rights under the Constitution as well as that in support of the Native American community.

No.

Yes.

I've met you at every reasonable point

Not with documentation, you haven't.

and noted a great deal of advance that really didn't impact the point.

You would because you're you.

But feel free to repost anything you felt was overlooked.

Sigh...I suppose I should but I really don't feel like it.

I'm not a liberal.

Yes, you are. What's worse, you're a closet Liberal.

Were I, I'd have no problem defending it. Unpopular positions don't cause me discomfort. But this is just you trying to do by taint what you can't do rationally, which now appears habitual.

What need have I to do what you do for yourself so well?

 

[IMJerusha]

Yes. I put out the literal quotes of me addressing the thing you mischaracterized and noted an earlier thread where more than a few conservatives were attempting to label me as hypersensitive to the Native American response, in general, to an offensive term.

No, you didn't and I've already addressed the reason why.

Well, no, I don't actually recall much of what you had to say in that thread (and what I do recall only by your jogging my memory that you were a part of it)

You have a memory like a steel trap, Town, and if I were you, I would not denigrate myself for the sake of an argument.

and don't think of you beyond what you put in front of me to answer here.

Which points to a lacking in sincerity considering earlier words you have communicated.

Sure I was. I set out links to polling on the point. The majority of Native Americans found the use of the term by outsiders offensive. A large number found the use offensive even within the Nations.

As I pointed out to you, a large number of those responses weren't by true Native Americans and that was my point here.

I think at the time I compared it to a similar divide among blacks regarding the n-bomb.

And it was pointed out that a large number of Black Americans use that word themselves but that's neither here or there.

Here's the actual use I made of the thread, again:

You can repeat it as insufficiently as the first time. It doesn't change anything.

There was no Native American genocide. There wasn't a federal attempt to eradicate the Native American. I've spoken to that and the the embarrassing, horrific and at best indifferent treatment of Native Americans by their conquerors.

What is horrific is that you believe you can speak to something and change the truth of what happened. And then you add insult to injury by claiming the white man the "conquerors" of the Red Nations. These are the kinds of descriptors you have been placing very carefully in your sentences to provoke. What is sad is that I'm not the one you are provoking. Sadder still is the fact that you deny doing it.

See? There you go again. I didn't say I helped them in their gaming endeavors. That wasn't my relation to them, professionally. (redacted what I actually did for them given your treatment and assumptions don't warrant the explanation)

You poor, put upon fellow! My treatment of your words has just been awful hasn't it?

I'm not even sure at this point you see yourself clearly.

I do and I'm happy with what I see, Baruch HaShem!

The sincere smilie is a dead giveaway.

Oh? It basically meant enjoy your ":idunno:" or the state of your "idunno." That is what I stated. It means you are in a bad place in my estimation but you appear to be happy there.

..seventy dollars. lain: (old joke involving raised leather binding)

Which probably doesn't exist. It's called pushing garbage past the radar, so to speak, or a way to reply without thought and that IS a dead giveaway.

 

[Town Heretic]

No, you didn't and I've already addressed the reason why.

I literally did and God alone knows what you think you addressed, but you can't address away facts.

By way of example, here (link) is the post in this thread where I quote the states declarations regarding their withdraw from the Union as well as a link to a letter written by ambassadors from Alabama, etc.

You have a memory like a steel trap, Town, and if I were you, I would not denigrate myself for the sake of an argument.

If you were me you wouldn't do a lot of things, like make accusations you couldn't back factually, confuse your willingness to say a thing with the truth, that sort of business. Else, I only commit to memory things I find worth remembering. I honestly had no recollection of your participation in that thread. I couldn't tell you half of what rainee's written here after I answer it. Just stuff and nonsense.

Which points to a lacking in sincerity considering earlier words you have communicated.

More general declaration of feeling unbacked by quotes.

As I pointed out to you, a large number of those responses weren't by true Native Americans and that was my point here.

You may well have said that. It was bunk if you did, but if you said the bunk I won't say you didn't...it would be better with quotes.

And it was pointed out that a large number of Black Americans use that word themselves but that's neither here or there.

I agree you have a habit of saying things that don't impact a point. Since no one was contesting whether or not blacks used the n word or Native Americans used the r word, it really didn't move any particular.

You can repeat it as... as the first time. It doesn't change anything.

Agreed. The change was in your truncating and the misrepresentation you desperately tried to foist on it to suit your equally desperate need to paint me given you can't address my actual argument...which none, literally none of this does. It's darn nearly impressive that way. lain:

What is horrific is that you believe you can speak to something and change the truth of what happened.

It would be if I did, but of course I don't, which is why you don't ever quote me doing any of the things you claim I do and why I have no problem quoting me not doing them.

And then you add insult to injury by claiming the white man the "conquerors" of the Red Nations.

I can't add to an injury I never gave and it isn't an insult unless you find an honest assessment of fact insulting.

These are the kinds of descriptors you have been placing very carefully in your sentences to provoke.

Provoking you doesn't take careful attention to anything but the plain truth.

What is sad is that I'm not the one you are provoking.

Your implacability is, I'm sure, the talk of the town.

You poor, put upon fellow! My treatment of your words has just been awful hasn't it?

You put words in my mouth that not only were never spoken by me but didn't and don't reflect my position. When told so and asked to produce proof you've resorted to this. Is it awful? Maybe it's just how you do things. I couldn't say.

Which probably doesn't exist.

So it would be like most of the what you ascribe to me then...but no, the joke, unlike your rebuttals, exists. Years ago there was a commercial that became that very thing. Some book company was hawking classics that "appeared" to be of a much greater value than they were.

One of the lines was, "The raised leather binding is a dead give away..." followed by the price. It wasn't a credible commercial and became a passing joke for anything trumpeted as being worth more than any reasonable human being would believe.

It's called pushing garbage past the radar, so to speak, or a way to reply without thought and that IS a dead giveaway.

No, you're just at the point where you can't see your own enmity for the forest fire.

 

[Town Heretic]

Meaning that Conservatives are pro-slavery?

Yes. That's obviously what it must mean. I literally think conservatives are pro slavery. Magnificent. You should be start a Mensa chapter...or at least try for an intelligent sentence.

What is demonstrable is that you can plainly state something without really stating it outright, a sad misuse of your training.

That you don't recognize the contradiction there is either very funny or very sad. But why choose?

In other words, I can only go back and bring forth your words entoto, encompassing huge amounts of text as our conversation has been ongoing for quite a while.

I actually haven't spent much time on Native Americans in a thread about the Confederate flag...only in answering you grasping about and I included links, so anyone can look at the post entirely.

Here's another thing I invite. Anyone who wants to should click on the post total for this thread. A list of names will pop up with how many posts each has contributed. Click on my posts and they'll all be there, one after the other. Feel free to read through them.

Now, I can go back and get the links and I have been known to do that in the past. Is that what you would like me to do?

I haven't been ambiguous. I've said if you're going to make a charge that I said something back it with a quote. Couldn't be clearer. But you'll never sustain your "evil state's rights" or disparaging of Native Americans by doing that so I don't expect you to.

You actually didn't defend yourself well on that point either for the very same reason that I have stated above. The training you employed prevents you from defending yourself in the same manner it prevents me from quoting you.

That reduces to crazy talk. I didn't say it but you know what I meant sort of nonsense.

Forget that spiral I mentioned. You're digging a furrow in the earth at this point.

I hope they do. I hope they see the documentation and quotes from particular individuals that I have brought forth in support of states rights and individual rights under the Constitution as well as that in support of the Native American community.

The issue before us isn't state's rights. Neither was the issue that prompted the war, it was only the means those gambling to preserve their inhuman trade attempted to use. And as I said then (and you incorrectly declared the opposite) it was likely legal.

Yes, you are. What's worse, you're a closet Liberal.

Your attempts to foist upon me a label at odds with any number of positions I take and my own mind on the matter is as thinly disguised personal animus as was Pure's bit of temper when he nearly placed me in the right wing camp. The fact is that I have always had a measure of contempt for extremist thinking and both camps have been ruled by the margins of that for too long to accommodate me.

When you find a liberal who believes in gun rights and opposes abortion from conception forward, who believes that a well regulated market and not socialism is the best answer to what ails our economy, then I might have to consider liberalism, it having changed a good deal since I last looked upon it with anything like interest.

What need have I to do what you do for yourself so well?

This is the arrogant hubris of extremists. You feel entitled to pronounce a thing into existence and are, for the most part, incapable of much more.

 

[Eeset]

This thread has become another lengthy diatribe on the correctness of Town. He Trumped the conversation.

 

[Town Heretic]

This thread has become another lengthy diatribe on the correctness of Town. He Trumped the conversation.

Just telling the truth. And the truth will set you free, or your hair on fire, depending on how close to it you get.

You would be safe draped in silk.

 

[Eeset]

Just telling the truth. And the truth will set you free, or your hair on fire, depending on how close to it you get.

You would be safe draped in silk.

You might have to restate your last lest some not catch the insult.

Truthfully though, have you ever owned a confederate battle flag or something displaying its likeness?

 

[Town Heretic]

You might have to restate your last lest some not catch the insult.

I'm not sure if you're underestimating everyone else or just paying yourself a compliment.

Truthfully though, have you ever owned a confederate battle flag or something displaying its likeness?

No, though in my youth I had a popular misconception of it born of the veiled, squinty way my class tended to look at that history. Eventually I opened my eyes and the repugnant truth became self evident.

 

[Eeset]

I'm not sure if you're underestimating everyone else or just paying yourself a compliment.


No, though in my youth I had a popular misconception of it born of the veiled, squinty way my class tended to look at that history. Eventually I opened my eyes and the repugnant truth became self evident.

Were you old enough to understand the dynamics of the George Wallace campaign?

 

[Town Heretic]

Which Wallace? The racist who wrapped himself in state's rights in an effort to uphold segregation, or the latter version of that rascally populist who wept over his racism and begged forgiveness of and empowerment from the people he'd held in contempt and sought to deny legal equality before the law?