Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[rexlunae]

An Important Speech

 

[rainee]

So y'all heard the flag comes down at 4 pm today, yes?
The voting passed senate and house of that (sovereign) state
And I bow to their decision.

 

[rainee]

Racism. lain:


No one is confused about what crop was the cornerstone of the Southern economic engine of slavery.


No, Cleopatra, it isn't. It's to take the masters of their day at their word and history as the record.

I've set out what the states had to say about their own motivation. The rest is sound and fury.

Say what you wish about racism but SouthCarolina had an historic
Church downtown that was held in value by the people who lived there... One young man killing people is more related to other young men killing people I think than to anything to do with that flag or The Confederacy it represented founded on the First Constitution (The Articles of Confederation) of the Original Thirteen States (Colonies)

You call cotton the cornerstone of the Southern economic engine of slavery?

So in 1914 when the United States was providing some kind of high %. Of the Cotton for the WORLD with no great cotton combine available were the people who picked it the victims of slavery?? See from same site as above:

In 1914, the U.S. grew two-thirds of the cotton used in the world. That amounted to more than 16 million bales of raw cotton – each bale weighing 600 pounds – that were processed into thread, woven into cloth and then sewn into clothing or other fabric items.
Throughout U.S. history, cotton has been an extremely labor intensive crop to produce. The labor required to grow cotton was one of the reasons that slavery (before the Civil War) and the share cropper system (after the Civil War) existed. In the 20th century, both World Wars lured many black share croppers out of the fields and to defense jobs in the North. In fact, between 1940 and 1950, the rural black population in the South declined by 21 percent.

And surrounding circumstances for the Southern Economy are simply sound and fury, eh? And not mitigating?? Really?

If you think I'm going to ask why you called me Cleopatra just so you can say I'm the queen of denial- forget it.

 

[Granite]

I think trying to neatly reduce the many reasons for this unfortunate chapter in American history to fit a symbol does a disservice to all who fought and died therein on both sides.

Symbols have power and mean something and the rebel flag's wickedness speaks for itself. Anything else is either window dressing or disinformation.

 

[IMJerusha]

I think to deny the plain face of history or to attempt to make of it something more noble than it warrants invites the sort of foolishness that saw Confederate battle flags atop government institutions and otherwise rational and decent people ennobling the ignoble.

Many men had their own reasons for fighting in that conflict, but the war was for the preservation of an evil and the continued enslavement of a people for economic gain. That is as clear as the proud professions of its movers transformed by time into confessions of a shameful nature summed neatly:

"Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork." Southern Punch, Richmond 1864​

For context, I prefer the entire quote: " ‘The people of the South,’ says a contemporary, ‘are not fighting for slavery but for independence.’ Let us look into this matter. It is an easy task, we think, to show up this new-fangled heresy — a heresy calculated to do us no good, for it cannot deceive foreign statesmen nor peoples, nor mislead any one here nor in Yankee land . . . Our doctrine is this: WE ARE FIGHTING FOR INDEPENDENCE THAT OUR GREAT AND NECESSARY DOMESTIC INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY SHALL BE PRESERVED, and for the preservation of other institutions of which slavery is the groundwork.”

The media, even back in 1864, was comprised of peoples with differing points of view. I'm not sure that independence would have been considered "new-fangled" by folks in either the North or the South. Bluntly, this statement was the opinion of the writer, not the opinion of the South en toto.

Many states that sided with the North had slaves. Census documentation of the time shows Maryland with 87,189, West Virginia with 18,371, Delaware with 1,798, Kentucky with 225,483, Missouri with 114,931. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves of the South.

Walter Williams, an economics professor at George Mason University, had this article published in the Washington Times:

"Most historical accounts portray Southern blacks as anxiously awaiting President Abraham Lincoln's 'liberty-dispensing troops' marching south in the War Between the States. But there's more to the story; let's look at it.
Black Confederate military units, both as freemen and slaves, fought federal troops. Louisiana free blacks gave their reason for fighting in a letter written to New Orleans' Daily Delta: 'The free colored population love their home, their property, their own slaves and recognize no other country than Louisiana, and are ready to shed their blood for her defense. They have no sympathy for Abolitionism; no love for the North, but they have plenty for Louisiana. They will fight for her in 1861 as they fought in 1814-15.' As to bravery, one black scolded the commanding general of the state militia, saying, 'Pardon me, general, but the only cowardly blood we have got in our veins is the white blood.'
Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest had slaves and freemen serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, 'These boys stayed with me.. - and better Confederates did not live.' Articles in 'Black Southerners in Gray,' edited by Richard Rollins, gives numerous accounts of blacks serving as fighting men or servants in every battle from Gettysburg to Vicksburg.
Professor Ed Smith, director of American Studies at American University, says Stonewall Jackson had 3,000 fully equipped black troops scattered throughout his corps at Antietam - the war's bloodiest battle. Mr. Smith calculates that between 60,000 and 93,000 blacks served the Confederacy in some capacity. They fought for the same reason they fought in previous wars and wars afterward: 'to position themselves. They had to prove they were patriots in the hope the future would be better ... they hoped to be rewarded.'
Many knew Lincoln had little love for enslaved blacks and didn't wage war against the South for their benefit. Lincoln made that plain, saying, 'I will say, then, that I am not, nor have ever been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races ... I am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.' The very words of his 1863 Emancipation Proclamation revealed his deceit and cunning; it freed those slaves held 'within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States.' It didn't apply to slaves in West Virginia and areas and states not in rebellion. Like Gen. Ulysses Grant's slaves, they had to wait for the 13th Amendment, Grant explained why he didn't free his slaves earlier, saying, 'Good help is so hard to come by these days.'
Lincoln waged war to 'preserve the Union'. The 1783 peace agreement with England (Treaty of Paris] left 13 sovereign nations. They came together in 1787, as principals, to create a federal government, as their agent, giving it specific delegated authority -specified in our Constitution. Principals always retain the right to fire their agent. The South acted on that right when it seceded. Its firing on Fort Sumter, federal property, gave Lincoln the pretext needed for the war.
The War Between the States, through force of arms, settled the question of secession, enabling the federal government to run roughshod over states' rights specified by the Constitution's 10th Amendment.
Sons of Confederate Veterans is a group dedicated to giving a truer account of the War Between the States. I'd like to see it erect on Richmond's Monument Avenue a statue of one of the thousands of black Confederate soldiers."

I would agree with Mr. Williams, having been a resident of Richmond, that it would be correct, especially in light of all this Confederate flag disputation, to erect a statue on Monument Avenue to honor the black fighting Confederate. It is his due and Washington, not to mention the black community leadership, has gone amiss in its ignorance of that sacrifice!

 

[Granite]

Neo-Confed revisionists tend to ignore the reality of blacks who fought for the Confederacy: They were the exception, not the rule, and the Confederate Congress bitterly opposed even considering conscripting slaves until the very end. So, spare me this whitewash.

 

[IMJerusha]

Neo-Confed revisionists tend to ignore the reality of blacks who fought for the Confederacy: They were the exception, not the rule, and the Confederate Congress bitterly opposed even considering conscripting slaves until the very end. So, spare me this whitewash.

There is talk of pulling the Confederate memorials from the graves of Veterans. Do you think there will be consideration to the color represented by the interred individual? I think 63,000 to 90,000 black men is quite exceptional! Any life is exceptional, Granite.

On the 4th of July in downtown Cincinnati, a man was beaten nearly to death while people looked on, cheered and laughed. An attempt was made to cover it up by city officials so that the city would not be viewed unsafe for the upcoming Major League All-star game. The city is unsafe because city officials do not value the life of a man over city income. It has nothing to do with the color of the man beaten vs. the color of the people cheering the action on. Our nation is sick and wandering too far away from Godly values.

 

[bybee]

There is talk of pulling the Confederate memorials from the graves of Veterans. Do you think there will be consideration to the color represented by the interred individual? I think 63,000 to 90,000 black men is quite exceptional!

Leave the dead alone!

 

[Granite]

There is talk of pulling the Confederate memorials from the graves of Veterans. Do you think there will be consideration to the color represented by the interred individual? I think 63,000 to 90,000 black men is quite exceptional! Any life is exceptional, Granite.

For one, those numbers are likely exaggerated.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2015/01/black_confederates_not_a_myth_here_s_why.html

And for another, misrepresenting their service is simply dishonest.

 

[IMJerusha]

For one, those numbers are likely exaggerated.

http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2015/01/black_confederates_not_a_myth_here_s_why.html

And for another, misrepresenting their service is simply dishonest.

To what end would a black individual wish to exaggerate numbers and misrepresent the service of other black individuals in a cause they believed in? There are people so intent on disproving the facts that they are willing to cast into disrepute a prestigious university, declaring its hiring guidelines and professorship outside the realm of post-secondary education. What a crock!

 

[Granite]

To what end would a black individual wish to exaggerate numbers and misrepresent the service of other black individuals in a cause they believed in?

They wouldn't. Which is the point: It's neo-Confeds who do the exaggeration. If you checked the link I provided you'll see a very different story more in line with actual reality.

 

[IMJerusha]

They wouldn't.

But they have.

Which is the point: It's neo-Confeds who do the exaggeration. If you checked the link I provided you'll see a very different story more in line with actual reality.

To lay the blame for the Civil War totally on the shoulder of slavery is wrong. Thomas Jefferson wasn't even around for the Civil War but would probably be considered a neo-Confederate considering his statements regarding states rights. There is a tendency to label anyone who is pro states rights as neo-Confederate. That's wrong also but once again the issue of states rights is going to cast the United States into a civil war if we're not careful.

 

[Granite]

But they have.

I'm not sure what you're talking about. The link I shared indicated the number of black Confederates is likely far less than what neo-Confeds insist on--and that research comes from the root.com. The ones doing the exaggerating are pro-Confederate revisionists.

To lay the blame for the Civil War totally on the shoulder of slavery is wrong.

Okay, I guess we're changing gears here. Was it mostly about slavery? Ultimately, the answer is yes.

 

[fzappa13]

Symbols have power and mean something and the rebel flag's wickedness speaks for itself. Anything else is either window dressing or disinformation.

The meaning of symbols has a way of morphing over time to suit the purposes of those doing the morphing. If you want to be a part of the next race war being fomented in this country by it's would be handlers go right ahead. If you want to know what actually happened in this country a century and a half ago it's going to require a bit more work than those whose reality is delineated by symbols are willing to commit to.

 

[Granite]

The meaning of symbols has a way of morphing over time to suit the purposes of those doing the morphing.

True. And what exactly's the rebel flag become? If--big if--it was once (barely) defensible, it's certainly well passed its expiration date by now.

If you want to be a part of the next race war being fomented in this country by it's would be handlers go right ahead.

:yawn:

If you want to know what actually happened in this country a century and a half ago it's going to require a bit more work than those whose reality is delineated by symbols are willing to commit to.

My understanding of the Civil War's just fine, thanks.

 

[fzappa13]

True. And what exactly's the rebel flag become? If--big if--it was once (barely) defensible, it's certainly well passed its expiration date by now.

What you know about the "Stars and Bars" and it's meaning as offered by those who created it is obviously deficient. Now, go google some silliness and offer it back as knowledge.

:yawn:

You don't see the ways in which you are being manipulated. That was ever the fate of the willfully ignorant.

My understanding of the Civil War's just fine, thanks.

I'm sure it suits your purposes and that of others ... as it concerns any notion of objectivity ...:nono:

 

[Granite]

What you know about the "Stars and Bars" and it's meaning as offered by those who created it is obviously deficient.

I'm not talking about the stars and bars, I'm talking about the rebel flag as we know it today (more or less the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia). Take your arrogance and find a place to put it, you stuffed shirt.

You don't see the ways in which you are being manipulated. That was wver the fate of the willfully ignorant.

:yawn:

 

[Town Heretic]

Say what you wish about racism

It's horrific and the worst example of it was found in the institution of slavery, the backbone of the Southern aristocracy and leadership.

Thanks.

but SouthCarolina had an historic Church downtown that was held in value by the people who lived there... One young man killing people is more related to other young men killing people I think than to anything to do with that flag or The Confederacy it represented founded on the First Constitution (The Articles of Confederation) of the Original Thirteen States (Colonies)

I'm not blaming the flag for that hate riddled idiot. But you know, nothing in that flag would have impeded him and there's much in its history that absolutely encouraged him.

Even so, it's another issue. Speaking of:

You call cotton the cornerstone of the Southern economic engine of slavery?

So in 1914 when the United States was providing some kind of high %. Of the Cotton for the WORLD with no great cotton combine available were the people who picked it the victims of slavery?? See from same site as above:

Different time and issue having nothing to do with the veneration of a failed, ignoble cause or the people who served it.

 

[Town Heretic]

You wish ... and I'm not real sure why.

Because the worst thing those who descend from the families that embroiled the nation in that war can do is to entertain it as something more than it was.

You normally go to great lengths to water an idea with words

I give a thing what I think it's worth. And if I've done that for a number of posts I don't see the point in dragging all of it forward to the next like Marley's chains.

... why the sudden interest in brevity when we both know a small forest of trees have been harvested to flesh out this subject?

I don't think anyone could reasonably call my larger post with numerous notes and quotes brief, but in sum, the Southern cause is clearly set out by the men who saw it to fruition. It's only a mystery to apologists laying in the weeds of a more modern complaint that the South attempted to use as a mechanism (but not motive) to withdraw and looking to ennoble anything that will found their cause.

...The media, even back in 1864, was comprised of peoples with differing points of view.

Sure. Which is why I noted the official posture of states leaving the Union about the why of it. That newspaper quote just summed it nicely.

Truth is that states may have thought (and been right) that they had the right to withdraw and may well have been exercising that right, but the reason they were doing so was and remains, slavery.

Many states that sided with the North had slaves.

A few border states.

Now, as soon as Lincoln could manage it what did he actually do about slavery? Exactly what he always envisioned would come about eventually, if farther down the line.

Census documentation of the time shows Maryland with 87,189, West Virginia with 18,371, Delaware with 1,798, Kentucky with 225,483, Missouri with 114,931. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves of the South.

Right. It was the easier of the tasks before those who were opposed to slavery. And then they found their way to the second part, which is why none of those Union states had slaves for long.

I would agree with Mr. Williams, having been a resident of Richmond, that it would be correct, especially in light of all this Confederate flag disputation, to erect a statue on Monument Avenue to honor the black fighting Confederate.

Why not erect monuments to fallen and loyal subjects to the British Empire in Boston while you're at it? lain:

It is his due and Washington, not to mention the black community leadership, has gone amiss in its ignorance of that sacrifice!

Rather, the sacrifice was itself and in the service of ignorance and neither needs nor merit's public honor. For my part, you could take the sum of Confederate memorials and make a fishing/diving reef with them in the Gulf of Mexico.

So the Stars and Stripes stands for the deliberate economic decimation of the South that accompanied "reconstruction"?

No, you could say it stands for a particular form of government in relation to its people, since that was the root of the conflict, as slavery was the root of the Confederate cause.

 

[fzappa13]

I'm not talking about the stars and bars, I'm talking about the rebel flag as we know it today (more or less the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia). Take your arrogance and find a place to put it, you stuffed shirt.

ooooooo... you ... you ... bad person .. you ... you ... booger picker ... you ... you ... lilly livered sniffer of other peoples bottoms ... I clear my nostrils in your general direction ...

:yawn:

Anywho, like I was saying about symbols, as we get lazier as a society we tend to lean on them more and more ... at our own peril.