Shooting at SC Church During Bible Study - Suspect still at large

[Town Heretic]

...Sure seems like an overreaction to me.

It wasn't. It was a desperate bid founded on a certain understanding that their power base within the Union wouldn't be able to hold its ground. The notion of popular sovereignty as the determiner within the territories was a winning gambit for the north and abolitionists, with their overwhelming superiority of numbers, in seeing to it that those territories would enter free and the states that followed likewise. And those in favor of slavery were, both by those numbers and as a result of the practical limitations of their practice in relation to land, doomed to failure and eventual disenfranchisement.

So the war was a bid understanding a sure long term loss set against the possibility of taking a divided north into a war they wouldn't have the stomach for in the short run.

 

[Delmar]

Even if it was true, it doesn't take away from the fact that the Confederate Flag is a racist hateful flag.

Slavery continued in some of the Northern states after the emancipation proclamation. How is the US flag not every bit as much a symbol of racisim?

 

[tetelestai]

Slavery continued in some of the Northern states after the emancipation proclamation. How is the US flag not every bit as much a symbol of racisim?

 

[Town Heretic]

Slavery continued in some of the Northern states after the emancipation proclamation. How is the US flag not every bit as much a symbol of racisim?

Because the flag of our country represents a larger tapestry, including states and peoples who came long after that conflict, but it is also the flag that flew over those who paid the ultimate price to correct that founding mistake and denial of human dignity. The Confederate battle flag represents those who fought to continue it for men who valued profit over human dignity and has gone on into a modern age as a symbol of hatred and violence in the name of a racist agenda.

 

[rainee]

Because the flag of our country represents a larger tapestry, including states and peoples who came long after that conflict, but it is also the flag that flew over those who paid the ultimate price to correct that founding mistake and denial of human dignity. The Confederate battle flag represents those who fought to continue it for men who valued profit over human dignity and has gone on into a modern age as a symbol of hatred and violence in the name of a racist agenda.

The first part of this answer is pretty good for one them whatchamacallits that make me just want to chew the flesh right off my arm...
But I fear the second part of this answer (the part about the Confederate Flag)could have risen to a higher truth...


The Articles of Confederation was the First Constitution of the Original 13 States who had been The 13 Colonies.

It was ratified by them all and keyed on States Rights And Commitments to each other. They all agreed.
Later it was replaced by the current Constitution. But the Current One does not seem to veer so very far from those concepts to me, am I mistaken?

Some today have said ALL State Flags should be done away with...
Are you all willing to do that? Melt into one group owned by one government?

The Confederate Flag was a call back to the original agreements of these 13 States. Have you looked at just who "the South" was and just who the the controlling powers of the "North" or "Union" was?

Some could say what the north did to their equals who went back to the very beginning with them was nothing short of betrayal.

So the Confederate Flag we see today was a reminder that the many may have wanted to forget.

Once again I say I am glad the slavery has been abolished!

But I have read of the indentured slaves consisting of poor Irish or Germans when land needed to be worked in the settling of this country...

Today our government wants to import poor and wants to give them citizenship, have you thought why?

Not because land needs settling - but because a labor force that will pay taxes is desperately needed for the future of this government.

They won't have to do anything special - they will just have to work on the record so they can pay taxes.
The baby boomers are all growing old and we have practiced abortion in this country, I guess - all to amount to the need to bring them in.

Have things really changed that much?

 

[Tambora]

Slavery continued in some of the Northern states after the emancipation proclamation. How is the US flag not every bit as much a symbol of racisim?

Because Tet has decided to let the KKK decide for him what the Confederate flag stands for.
He can't think for himself.

 

[Granite]

The flag's history and meaning is well-established. As a symbol of racism, white supremacy, and treason, it pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[tetelestai]

Because Tet has decided to let the KKK decide for him what the Confederate flag stands for.
He can't think for himself.

The Confederate Flag stood for treason, slavery, and racial hatred long before the KKK came into existence.

 

[tetelestai]

Have things really changed that much?

Yes they have, despite Southern racists such as yourself who defend the Confederate Flag.

 

[Town Heretic]

The first part of this answer is pretty good for one them whatchamacallits that make me just want to chew the flesh right off my arm...
But I fear the second part of this answer (the part about the Confederate Flag)could have risen to a higher truth...

You know what sort of person finds the Confederate battle flag ennobling? The same sort who poison trees because the college they never attended lost an ultimately meaningless game to its rival.

Jefferson Davis put it simply, they left the Union to avoid a rule by majority, a rule that would spell the end of their economic reality. Because the idea of popular sovereignty deciding the outcome of territories as free or slave was a losing proposition. And their economic reality was founded on the indignity and inhumanity of slavery.

To attempt to make this about anything else is laying garlands around a septic wound.

Once again I say I am glad the slavery has been abolished!

You're supposed to be glad.

But I have read of the indentured slaves consisting of poor Irish or Germans when land needed to be worked in the settling of this country...

What do you mean, "But"? Why does that remotely qualify your gladness?

Today our government wants to import poor and wants to give them citizenship, have you thought why?Not because land needs settling - but because a labor force that will pay taxes is desperately needed for the future of this government.

You mean the workers pouring through illegally to work anyway?

Have things really changed that much?

Not if you can't tell the difference between those sold into bondage and divorced from their dignity from people desperate for work and pursuing the advancement of their own.

So it depends.

 

[drbrumley]

Because the flag of our country represents a larger tapestry, including states and peoples who came long after that conflict, but it is also the flag that flew over those who paid the ultimate price to correct that founding mistake and denial of human dignity. The Confederate battle flag represents those who fought to continue it for men who valued profit over human dignity and has gone on into a modern age as a symbol of hatred and violence in the name of a racist agenda.

You make it sound like the United States was wanting slavery abolished. Sorry to say, that is not true.

 

[meshak]

You make it sound like the United States was wanting slavery abolished. Sorry to say, that is not true.

then why was it abolished?

 

[Alate_One]

What would you say Alate if you heard of a successful man growing every day richer when finally one of the rich women he had gathered as a wife told him she was divorcing him and taking maybe 50%, maybe more, of what made him wealthy with her.

Your analogy fails because:

A. Countries are not individuals, nor is one nation female and the other male.

B. The "female" in this analogy stabbed the male when he failed to giver her the combination code to the weapon safes in the house she absconded from him.

So, while you weave an artful story, it doesn't reflect the reality of what happened.

 

[Town Heretic]

You make it sound like the United States was wanting slavery abolished. Sorry to say, that is not true.

A growing portion did. There were the radicals, the John Browns, and those more aligned with Lincoln, who meant to strangle it over the long haul, but would accommodate it to preserve the Union in the short. Uncle Tom's Cabin started the populist sentiment growing to an unprecedented extent. The Southern leadership saw the inherent problem of popular sovereignty and understood the threat it raised for their economic way of life.

 

[drbrumley]

A growing portion did. There were the radicals, the John Browns, and those more aligned with Lincoln, who meant to strangle it over the long haul, but would accommodate it to preserve the Union in the short. Uncle Tom's Cabin started the populist sentiment growing to an unprecedented extent. The Southern leadership saw the inherent problem of popular sovereignty and understood the threat it raised for their economic way of life.

wow. Lincoln didn't want to strangle it period, so I am not sure where you get that from.

 

[drbrumley]

then why was it abolished?

Because of the abolitionists on both sides. Of which Lincoln despised.

 

[meshak]

then why was it abolished?

bump for Drb.

never mind.

 

[meshak]

Because of the abolitionists on both sides. Of which Lincoln despised.

So majority wanted abolished. That's how democracy works.

 

[Town Heretic]

wow. Lincoln didn't want to strangle it period, so I am not sure where you get that from.

From his own writings, mostly. From his ultimate fight to accomplish the amendment he didn't have to move for, that sort of thing.


"A house divided against itself cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half-slave and half-free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved - I do not expect the house to fall - but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other."

Now take that speculation and add to it,

"We think slavery a great moral wrong, and while we do not claim the right to touch it where it exists, we wish to treat it as a wrong in the territories, where our votes will reach it."

And,

"I think slavery is wrong, morally, and politically. I desire that it should be no further spread in these United States, and I should not object if it should gradually terminate in the whole Union."

I think Lincoln was populist enough to accommodate where he had to and to soften his rhetoric to attain advantage, but the whole of his thinking and its direction is hard to miss.


"I do not wish to be misunderstood upon this subject of slavery in this country. I suppose it may long exist, and perhaps the best way for it to come to an end peaceably is for it to exist for a length of time. But I say that the spread and strengthening and perpetuation of it is an entirely different proposition. There we should in every way resist it as a wrong, treating it as a wrong, with the fixed idea that it must and will come to an end." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln

 

[rainee]

I was told
Lincoln tried to run for political offices but was never successful until he made anti slavery part of his platform.
But I do think he did want to abolish slavery.

The problem for me is why some hard core business men were for him because of that?

Many new territories were being made states before the Civil War.
Again the problem for me is why are slave states being made in the southern territories while nonslave states are being made above them?

Iowa achieves statehood as a non slave state at about the same time Florida is made a slave state. Wonder why?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_and_free_states

Some have thought it was to make the greedy Southern people happy... As if in 1845 the North just really cared about those Southerners so much.

The paying of tariffs, taxes, and production of high dollar goods - what else could the Original Southern States want?

This was all for them, what else could you give them?


Well it must have been more southern slave states!!

The powers that were up North wouldn't have made more slave states because they wanted high dollar production and thought who else would work on sweltering spreads but slaves? Right?

I mean they were making non slave states at the same time and we know why, don't we?
Come on, pure of heart and all that, so they must have been making slave states for similar pure of heart reasons...

Speaking of withheld information, misinformation and down right lies - I bet there have been plenty of instances of these for everyone on both sides of the Mason Dixie line for a long time.

I thought Jefferson Davis said the sovereign states had as much right to secede as the colonies had right to declare their independence from Great Britain?

Ok, ok it should read Mason Dixon Line not mason Dixie
.