Shooting at First Baptist Church in Texas

[CabinetMaker]

As I have already said (please read the thread if you wish to interject) the US government should have amended the second amendment after there was no longer a threat from the British, and I will clarify this further by adding that more amendments could have and should have been made to reflect the changing threats to the country and to the individuals within the country but instead the US have gone on for over 300 years with the same stock ruling which is just madness and that's why there are 85+ murders a day compared to 0.01 per day in the UK.

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically. It's very simple.

Did you know that murder is not defined by the type of weapon that is used but by the motive of criminal commuting the act. People murder using poison, knives, trucks, drowning, chain saws, trophies, and even their bare hands. Maybe the problem doesn't isn't an inanimate object but is instead a problem with people. A problem with society.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

So you don't really care about your wife's protection.
You just want to admire skewed stats at her expense.
Get your priorities straight.

If I had a wife I would probably agree with you, or may be not depending on her.

 

[Tambora]

Did you know that murder is not defined by the type of weapon that is used but by the motive of criminal commuting the act. People murder using poison, knives, trucks, drowning, chain saws, trophies, and even their bare hands. Maybe the problem doesn't isn't an inanimate object but is instead a problem with people. A problem with society.

Yes.
There are many ways to skin a cat.
Take away all guns, and some other instrument will become the most desired weapon to use, and all the stats will then show that most desired weapon as being a problem.
As you say, it is not the instrument but the person using it that is the problem.
Swapping one instrument for another as a weapon is not going to fix the problem.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Did you know that murder is not defined by the type of weapon that is used but by the motive of criminal commuting the act. People murder using poison, knives, trucks, drowning, chain saws, trophies, and even their bare hands. Maybe the problem doesn't isn't an inanimate object but is instead a problem with people. A problem with society.

You would need to back your view with stats. here are some I found that might help you.


In 2017 the US has 36 deaths per day because of guns:
https://twitter.com/GunDeaths/status...7Ctwgr^tweet

While in the UK during 2013 there were only 0.28: http://www.gunbabygun.com/many-peopl...data-examined/

US Pop. 323.1 million (2016) 5x the UK Pop. 64.13 million (2013)

Therefore 7.2 deaths per day compared to 0.28 per 64 million per day.

Or

36 deaths compared to 1.4 deaths per 323.1 million per day.

 

[CabinetMaker]

You would need to back your view with stats. here are some I found that might help you.


In 2017 the US has 36 deaths per day because of guns:
https://twitter.com/GunDeaths/status...7Ctwgr^tweet

While in the UK during 2013 there were only 0.28: http://www.gunbabygun.com/many-peopl...data-examined/

US Pop. 323.1 million (2016) 5x the UK Pop. 64.13 million (2013)

Therefore 7.2 deaths per day compared to 0.28 per 64 million per day.

Or

36 deaths compared to 1.4 deaths per 323.1 million per day.

These stats are absolutely meaningless in regards to what I said. Look at what I said again:
"Did you know that murder is not defined by the type of weapon that is used but by the motive of criminal committing the act."

 

[Nihilo]

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically. That is reason enough.

Statistics don't show any such thing. Statistics show that there are more murderers per capita in America than in many other countries. Correlation does not prove causation.

 

[Nihilo]

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically.

Made up.

 

[Nihilo]

As I have already said (please read the thread if you wish to interject) the US government should have amended the second amendment after there was no longer a threat from the British, and I will clarify this further by adding that more amendments could have and should have been made to reflect the changing threats to the country and to the individuals within the country but instead the US have gone on for over 300 years with the same stock ruling which is just madness and that's why there are 85+ murders a day compared to 0.01 per day in the UK.

One big long opinion.

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically. It's very simple.

And still very made up.

 

[Nihilo]

I suggest that the law that gives you the weapon in your hand, almost certainly guarantees an attacker will also have a weapon in theirs.

Well that's just not so. The law that applies to non-criminals is that we shall not have our RKBA infringed. The law that applies to criminals is that criminals do not have the RKBA.

In a situation where both are armed, the effectiveness and lethality(?)of a gun mans the tactical advantage which usually lies with the aggressor or criminal is heightened. ie the perosn who plans conflict and has a gun to ready, loaded and to hand holds all the cards.

If you're going to invoke the "holding all the cards" idiom, then I can only agree that the one with a gun is holding all the cards, when the innocent person is unarmed.

Also looking at stats it would a seem that arming both parties actually increases risk to innocent of not only murder

Murderers murder. Nobody else murders. Murder is against every law.

, but accidents and suicide.

A real issue.

I do not support gun control which would do nothing to remove guns from the hands of criminals. Thus the level of gun control I would suggest most would think draconian.

And would therefore be against the Second Amendment, as you know.

 

[Nihilo]

As I have already said the US government should have amended the second amendment after there was no longer a threat from the British, and I will clarify this further by adding that more amendments could have and should have been made to reflect the changing threats to the country and to the individuals within the country but instead the US have gone on for over 300 years with the same stock ruling which is just madness and thats why there are 85+ murders a day compared to 0.01 per day in the UK.

You deny the right to life, the right to self defense, and the RKBA all in one fell swoop. Nobody should listen to anything that spills out of your mouth, or onto your keyboard.

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically.

And that remains false.

That is why it's okay for military and law enforcement to have guns.

That's not a reason.

 

[Tambora]

Statistics don't show any such thing. Statistics show that there are more murderers per capita in America than in many other countries. Correlation does not prove causation.

Yeppers.
It's the same tired old false argument ........ My dog bites. My dog is black. Therefore all black dogs bite.

It's not having more guns that cause more murders.
It's having more murderers that cause more murders.

 

[Nihilo]

If you are unwilling to defend your own life, and the life of your family, that's your issue, not ours. You can't bring yourself to permit others to disagree with you, without telling us we're satanists? You throw around the words warped and insane a lot---look in the mirror.

I answered this similar pov in my previous post.

No you didn't, you warped insane satanist. How did your family take it, when you told them that if their lives are ever in peril that you'll just sit on your hands?

 

[everready]

In 2017 the US has 36 deaths per day because of guns:
https://twitter.com/GunDeaths/status/928387574015471616?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet


While in the UK during 2013 there were only 0.28: http://www.gunbabygun.com/many-people-die-end-gun-england-wales-data-examined/

US Pop. 323.1 million (2016) 5x the UK Pop. 64.13 million (2013)

Therefore 7.2 deaths per day compared to 0.28 per 64 million per day.

Or

36 deaths compared to 1.4 deaths per 323.1 million per day.

Where are your stats on the number of innocent victims lives that are "saved" everyday due to legally owned firearms?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ulpcv-xJpA look at minute 11:14

everready

 

[Nihilo]

Yeppers.
It's the same tired old false argument ........ My dog bites. My dog is black. Therefore all black dogs bite.

It's not having more guns that cause more murders.
It's having more murderers that cause more murders.

This idiot in another thread claims to have an IQ of 140, but for some reason the most basic of statistical reasoning and interpretation principles eludes them. "Correlation doesn't prove causation" shouldn't need to be said to someone bragging about a high IQ.

 

[Tambora]

As I have already said the US government should have amended the second amendment

Coulda shoulda woulda, is not an argument.

We have to be able to protect ourselves now.
And right now your wife (based on a hypothetical that you have a wife) would be better protected if she had a gun.
Why on earth would you want to leave your wife LESS protected just because YOU wished upon a star that a law should have been different?????????????

 

[Tambora]

This idiot in another thread claims to have an IQ of 140, but for some reason the most basic of statistical reasoning and interpretation principles eludes them. "Correlation doesn't prove causation" shouldn't need to be said to someone bragging about a high IQ.

Exactly.
Determining who is 'smartest' differs depending on the situation.

A man trained on his dairy farm would be worthless in an operating room performing brain surgery.
And the brain surgeon would be worthless in a dairy farm performing the milking operation.

You don't need the 'smartest' one, you need the capable one for the specific job needed.

 

[Tambora]

Where are your stats on the number of innocent victims lives that are "saved" everyday due to legally owned firearms?

Why would not just a single incident of someone being saved because they had a gun be enough to show that having a gun can save your life?

 

[glorydaz]

We are all going to die, or didn't you know that?

Turns out I was supposed to just ignore this question. Who knew? :chew:

Your first paragraph shows that you didn't understand what I said, I can't keep repeating myself.

You can't? Why not?

And the problem is the second amendment, as I have already said in this thread the US government should have amended the second amendment after there was no longer a threat from the British, and I will clarify this further by adding that more amendments could have and should have been made to reflect the changing threats to the country and to the individuals within the country but instead the US have gone on for over 300 years with the same stock ruling which is just madness and that's why there are 85+ murders a day compared to 0.01 per day in the UK.

Last I looked, we were a much larger country than Brittain. Maybe not. :idunno:

Stats show that countries that allow the general public to have guns increases the murder rate dramatically. That is why it's okay for military and law enforcement to have guns but not he general public.

The problem isn't with the general public having guns, it's with the nuts and the bad guys having guns. If those folks knew they'd be receiving return fire, they wouldn't be so confident in these killing sprees.

 

[glassjester]

It's not having more guns that cause more murders.
It's having more murderers that cause more murders.

I agree.

So what's the solution? How do you decrease the number of murderers?

And just like you wouldn't serve beer at an AA meeting (though alcohol, itself, is not the problem), at what point do we say maybe a citizenry full of murderers shouldn't be allowed guns?

 

[Nihilo]

I agree.

So what's the solution? How do you decrease the number of murderers?

And just like you wouldn't serve beer at an AA meeting (though alcohol, itself, is not the problem), at what point do we say maybe a citizenry full of murderers shouldn't be allowed guns?

Prohibition helped to cause the crisis with guns, so poor analogy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#Background