Or, why not become a Baptist or a Buddhist? We truly have free will and can choose whatever we want to believe in. In fact, why don't you choose to become a member of the Body of Christ?
Scriptures that Refute Calvinism
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Or, why not become a Baptist or a Buddhist? We truly have free will and can choose whatever we want to believe in. In fact, why don't you choose to become a member of the Body of Christ?
AMR is a smart guy, however, that doesn't make him right.
You're a Catholic, right?
fishrovmen
Active member
Brother Ducky
New member
This from AMR, but not quite what I was thinking of.
Every unregenerate person is a sinner (Romans 3:23), spiritually dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), possessing a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), wholly unable to understand spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), is unrighteous, does not understand and does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is a slave to his own sin nature (Romans 6:14-20), is hostile in mind and deed to God (Colossians 1:21), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), naturally and rightfully are objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and unless elected to salvation by God, are destined to eternal condemnation in Hell—a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die (Matthew 8:11-12; Mark 9:42-48; Luke 16:19-31; Jude 1:3-13; Revelation 20:11-15).
Because of their sinful condition (Romans 6:14-20), the unregenerate do not and cannot freely choose to believe the gospel (Romans 3:10-12; Romans 6:14-20) and that they cannot come to God unless it has been granted to them, such that no one might boast (1 Corinthians 1:17-20; John 1:13), from the Father (John 6:65) who appoints them to eternal life (Acts 13:48 ) and grants that they believe (Philippians 1:29).
He supports his assertions with Scripture. Now if you wish to disagree it seems to me that you can argue that he misapplies the verses or that he misinterprets the verses. You just can not say he is wrong and you are right.
Brother Ducky
New member
Brother Ducky
New member
Well since you have eschewed all man-made writings for just the Bible, how about some Scripture to support your assertions.
I can [and have] worshiped with Baptists. I understand the reasons for holding to Believer's Baptism, but feel they do not "get" the covenantal nature of Christianity, so I would be unable to join a Baptistic church. Buddhism is completely off the table, but it is interesting that you consider it equal to being a Baptist.
I am glad that you have found your niche as Nanja to his B57. But do you really have to go to his belief that if you differ from Patism you are damned?
And remember, I do not hold to a free-will salvation, so I could not so choose. However, he did choose me and brought me to himself. Ain't God good? Because we could not choose him.
Brother Ducky
New member
Show me from Scripture where free-will [which Calvinists do not deny] extends to salvation.
There is no salvation outside of Christ and his Gospel. You are trying to be saved by another Gospel that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:7.
All who believe in Jesus by their own free will have eternal life, John 3:18.
Brother Ducky
New member
Great verse. Which translation are you using that says it is on the basis of free-will? The one that comes up with reftagger in your post does not have the reference to free-will.
Silly response. No offence. I just think it was a "silly response."
Amen. The "free-will" is built into the verse. Those who have no discernment will not agree, though. Too bad huh?
Brother Ducky
New member
Oh, what is silly about it?
Brother Ducky
New member
So, discernment is reading into the Word of God?
Free-will is not "built into" the verse. It might be there, or it might not be there. That would call for further exploration of the totality of Scripture.
Free-will is not inherent to the verse.
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
GM,
There are only two, b57 and Nanja, who are both hyper-Calvinists, that I have ever witnessed actually attacking Robert to the point of declaring him lost and hell-bound. I have never done so, nor has any other Calvinist that I know of here at TOL. If you are honest with yourself, you will admit this, and admit that Robert is always ready to declare anyone who disagrees with him as not being saved. Do you consider me a brother in the faith, GM?
I have been quite clear to note Robert's own words when taking him to task when he posts the half-truths and plainly incorrect views he holds about Calvinism. I have also very carefully pointed out the many accusations he makes, e.g., here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...te-Calvinism&p=4644900&viewfull=1#post4644900
I clearly demonstrate from evidence all can examine that Robert is bearing false witness. He remains unrepentant, even in the face of the evidence, preferring to ignore what is plain for all to see and just continue to move on to yet more naked claims that he thinks form actual arguments for his odd views:
No matter how often he is answered (and he has been), Robert will ignore the answer and then tee up a few more verses he has picked out of Scripture and start all over again as shown in the above. Robert is simply not interested in actual discussion and defense of his claims. Robert just wants to post repetitive vitriol.
GM, you readily come to Robert's defense, yet you seem unwilling to actually confront a brother and offer correction. Is your disdain for Calvinism so great that you will overlook errors in another to the point of being seen as actually partaking in the same errors? One wonders exactly where you actually stand. For example,
Do you believe the Bible is full of errors?
Do you believe we should not consider the Bible as a book to live by?
Do you believe that God does not know everything that is happening on earth?
Do you believe God does not know who will believe the gospel?
Do you believe that there is no such thing as eternal punishment in Hell for the lost?
Do you believe that all visible churches are but the whores of Rev. 17:5?
Do you refuse to attend any local church?
If you agree with Robert, then your answer to these questions will be his answer to them all: YES. Do you also answer "yes" to these questions?
Your post suggests my complaints about Robert are because he is saying things I do not want to hear. Actually, my complaint has no connection to this at all. Robert has not said anything that has not been said, responded to, and shown to be not as definitive as Robert would like to believe. My complaint is that Robert is an accuser and a liar. The facts are in evidence. I have made the reasons clear as to why I claim as such. I am not just making things up as your post quoted above implies. Robert refuses to repent of his bearing of false witness. Robert ignores responses to charges laid at his feet. Yet, you seem quite ready to associate yourself with him (Proverbs 6:16-19; Proverbs 26:17; Proverbs 18:13; Proverbs 26:8; Proverbs 29:20; Proverbs 19:5,9; Proverbs 28.23; Proverbs 12:26).
AMR
I'm with you on the things you posted above. I haven't seen Pate post any of those things? I've only seen a few things where I've disagreed with him. B57 and Nanja are a couple of "Fringe Calvinists."I have a problem with Calvinism (Reformed theology) when it comes to:
1) Their refusal to not see any active free-will within the entire Bible.
2) Their belief that God chose before the foundation of the world who
would be saved (The Elect) and who would be damned for eternity.
3) Some Calvinists believe that God creates all of mankind's sins.
4) The belief that one must be regenerated before receiving saving faith.
5) One does not have the ability to place their faith in Jesus Christ as
their Savior, after hearing the Gospel, unless they are one of the chosen
Elect.
Calvinists look at Scripture and interpret it according to their belief system. In my opinion, Calvinism changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. I do not recognize the Calvinist god? I have read and studied the entire Bible cover to cover, word for word and name by name. I still continue to read and study it. I see free-will practiced all through the Old and New Testaments. I've been a believer since about 1962-63. I'm 65 years old. I just do not see ANY Calvinistic truth in the entire written word of God. I always pray before I open the word of God, that God will give me wisdom and knowledge to fully understand what I'm about to read.
In order to receive eternal life:
1) One must hear the true Gospel of their salvation.
2) Admit they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior.
3) Place their entire faith in Jesus Christ as their
Savior.
4) Be sealed, indwelled, and baptized (not by water)
into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
5) They also receive the righteousness of Christ and
a guarantee of eternal life.
Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, however, only
those who place their faith in Christ alone will reap
the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand
before God and be judged by their works and cast into
the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his fallen
angels. This is an eternal punishment for rejecting
God's free gift of His Grace. No one spends eternity
in the Lake of Fire because of their sins. That punishment
is reserved for those who reject God's Grace.
Last edited:
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Pate's own words appear collected in one place here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...edestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162
What are your answers to the following...
Do you believe the Bible is full of errors?
Do you believe we should not consider the Bible as a book to live by?
Do you believe that God does not know everything that is happening on earth?
Do you believe God does not know who will believe the gospel?
Do you believe that there is no such thing as eternal punishment in Hell for the lost?
Do you believe that all visible churches are but the whores of Rev. 17:5?
Do you refuse to attend any local church?
AMR
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Let's assume you are correct. I take it that you mean by "free-will" an ability to do otherwise than what one actually did do. That is, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.
Scripture teaches us that the unsaved person
- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2)
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5)
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5)
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).
How do you reconcile these few samples from Scripture about the moral state of the unsaved person with your view of free will?
AMR
Last edited: