Scripture. What is considered Scripture?

[daqq]

I think daqq's trying to develop a catchphrase. "Say what you see!"

Just so you know, I was writing my previous post above, addressed to you, in an effort to help, and did not see your video until after I posted. But I still would have posted it anyways. I do not believe I owe you anything more.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

No longer on my log? You ninny. Had you been a little quicker on your feet you'd have seen where I was. Be a good little lurker and go read the Trinity thread. That was mainly where I was posting during those minutes you think I was busy doing whatever it was you think I was doing. :chuckle:

"No one believes me...." You mean no one in your little cabal of Bible haters.

Seriously, dude. How old are you? Are you sure you're old enough to be on an adult site such as this?

More Lies, you were not there: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115654-The-Trinity/page1557&highlight=Trinity+thread

The time in question was between 5:13am and 5:29am 7th Jan):

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5166073&viewfull=1#post5166073

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5165951&viewfull=1#post5165951

Are you okay?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

daqq could have told you what you wish to know about THE censer if only you would be willing to believe and study toward understanding it. There are only two places in the Torah where in THE censer has the definite article attached, (המחתה, Lev 16:12 and Num 16:46). And what comes immediately following the Numbers 16 passage? the Rod of Ahron which blossomed, (Numbers 17). Moreover, in Leviticus, you are confusing the golden altar of incense with the brazen altar of sacrifice: both of the altars are said to be "before the LORD", but one is in the secondary sanctuary and the other is outside before the door. Ahron is commanded to take burning coals from off the brazen altar of sacrifice, which is "before the LORD", not the golden altar of incense which is "before the LORD". This was explained in the post where I quoted the long section from Edersheim. I also noticed one of your posts where you said you could not understand how Ahron was supposed to bring the "smoke" into the Holy Holies; which tells me you have no understanding of what you are reading. Stop scanning the Torah looking for answers to your preconceived notions and just read it and study it, (in prayer). Ahron was to fill THE censer with burning coals from off the (brazen)altar which is before the Lord, and bring it into the Holy Holies, moreover with his (two)hands full of incense. Ahron would then place THE censer full of burning coals upon the staves of the Ark and cast the incense onto the burning coals, (as the coals remained held in the censer). The smoke would then be produced, making the holy Cloud inside the Holy Holies, (so that he not die). This holy Cloud is the heavenly Cloud or "Cloud(s) of heaven" referenced in many places even including some of the statements of the Master in the Gospel accounts, (for the kingdom of Elohim is within you).

Why you couldn't say all this fifty pages ago I have no idea other than either you've just learned this or like playing some kind of strange game.

Now when i said 'transport the smoke' I didn't literally mean just the smoke! I was just mucking around. Of course the censor would have to have the coals and incense in it.

And of course I know of the Bronze Altars out side in front of the temple. And I had read that before about taking the coals from the bronze altar although none of this is or was my concern. My question & cobra's & in general relates to whether there was an altar behind the curtain with the Ark. As, I think we have established this was a mistranslated and it was a censor, but as cobra alludes to and as I have explained in post #2075 :


http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5168641&viewfull=1#post5168641

"The word used in Hebrews 9:4 also translates to fire pan (shovel) which could indicate that the coals were carried into the H of H with this shovel in one hand of the High Priest and the sprinkling bowel in the other. He could then put the coals into the censor which had been left open on the floor from last year. putting down the shovel and picking up the censor he could then swing it about till there was a nice cloud over the mercy seat. Now he could put the censor down and begin sprinkling the blood. After communing with God was over, he would have to empty the ash out of the censor into the shovel and leave it open for next year.

I know this censor is not mentioned in the OT as far as I'm aware and this is the only problem I see with this but any alternative would involve moving the Altar into the H of H or there being two Altars? Both of which present bigger scriptural problems."

BUT and thank you, the same word in Numbers 16:46 is used in Lev 16:12 meaning fire pans (shovels) which seems to match the word used in Heb 9:4.

4289. machtah ►
Strong's Concordance
machtah: a fireholder, censer, snuff dish
Original Word: מַחְתָּה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: machtah
Phonetic Spelling: (makh-taw')
Short Definition: firepans

Do you agree with my understanding now? Because I don't due to the fact the high priest needs to be holding the incense as well? :darwinsm:

May be he had a tray?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Just so you know, I was writing my previous post above, addressed to you, in an effort to help, and did not see your video until after I posted. But I still would have posted it anyways. I do not believe I owe you anything more.

Oh dear, just when i thought we might be getting somewhere? :rotfl:

 

[daqq]

Why you couldn't say all this fifty pages ago

Very simple: you had too much pride to ask.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Very simple: you had too much pride to ask.

Damm my pride. :maxi:

 

[daqq]

Why you couldn't say all this fifty pages ago I have no idea other than either you've just learned this or like playing some kind of strange game.

Now when i said 'transport the smoke' I didn't literally mean just the smoke! I was just mucking around. Of course the censor would have to have the coals and incense in it.

And of course I know of the Bronze Altars out side in front of the temple. And I had read that before about taking the coals from the bronze altar although none of this is or was my concern. My question & cobra's & in general relates to whether there was an altar behind the curtain with the Ark. As, I think we have established this was a mistranslated and it was a censor, but as cobra alludes to and as I have explained in post #2075 :


http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ed-Scripture&p=5168641&viewfull=1#post5168641

"The word used in Hebrews 9:4 also translates to fire pan (shovel) which could indicate that the coals were carried into the H of H with this shovel in one hand of the High Priest and the sprinkling bowel in the other. He could then put the coals into the censor which had been left open on the floor from last year. putting down the shovel and picking up the censor he could then swing it about till there was a nice cloud over the mercy seat. Now he could put the censor down and begin sprinkling the blood. After communing with God was over, he would have to empty the ash out of the censor into the shovel and leave it open for next year.

I know this censor is not mentioned in the OT as far as I'm aware and this is the only problem I see with this but any alternative would involve moving the Altar into the H of H or there being two Altars? Both of which present bigger scriptural problems."

BUT and thank you, the same word in Numbers 16:46 is used in Lev 16:12 meaning fire pans (shovels) which seems to match the word used in Heb 9:4.

4289. machtah ►
Strong's Concordance
machtah: a fireholder, censer, snuff dish
Original Word: מַחְתָּה
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: machtah
Phonetic Spelling: (makh-taw')
Short Definition: firepans

Do you agree with my understanding now? Because I don't due to the fact the high priest needs to be holding the incense as well? :darwinsm:

May be he had tray?

:doh: The golden altar of incense was not inside the Holy Holies. There was not both "a shovel and a censer" in this occasion but only "the censer". Moreover, ask GloryDaz and I bet she knows that I have already spoken of "the censer" as opposed to "a censer", or are you too prideful to ask her anything in sincerity also? (and why is it that when you do actually ask me something it more often seems to be for the purpose of catching me in my words than anything else?). Moreover the incense was not already in the censer with the burning coals while Ahron took it into the Holy Holies, but rather, the incense was cast onto the burning coals in the censer after the censer with the burning coals was brought into the Holy Holies and placed upon the two staves of the Ark. This has mostly all already been explained, and just as the text says, Ahron, (and all his sons after that), was/were commanded to enter the Holy Holies with both the censer full of burning coals, and at the same time, TWO HANDS FULL of incense.

Here is an account from Chapter 16, (The Day of Atonement), of "THE TEMPLE - ITS MINISTRY AND SERVICE", (Alfred Edersheim), which goes into some detail about the duties if the chief priest in the great day. There is another account I am aware of but cannot remember where it comes from, (perhaps Josephus?), where it was said that the most difficult duty of the chief priest in this day was carrying the incense and the censer into the Most Holy place because he actually had to have two hands, (plural), full of incense and therefore was required to carry the censer under his armpit into the Most Holy place, (a task so difficult that the potential fill-ins and those who might be chief priest one day had to rigorously train for this duty). However when I went back to this account it was not the one I thought it was, but it makes the point concerning the censer clear enough, for it states that the one used in the great day, (Yom Kippurim), was larger and therefore different from a regular censer.

---

THE TEMPLE - ITS MINISTRY AND SERVICE, excerpt Ch. 16 (Alfred Edersheim)
The Confession of Sin and the Sacrifice
With this presentation of the scape-goat before the people commenced the third and most solemn part of the expiatory services of the day. The high-priest now once more returned towards the sanctuary, and a second time laid his two hands on the bullock, which still stood between the porch and the altar, to confess over him, not only as before, his own and his household's sins, but also those of the priesthood. The formula used was precisely the same as before, with the addition of the words, 'the seed of Aaron, Thy holy people,' both in the confession and in the petition for atonement. Then the high-priest killed the bullock, caught up his blood in a vessel, and gave it to an attendant to keep it stirring, lest it should coagulate. Advancing to the altar of burnt-offering, he next filled the censer with burning coals, and then ranged a handful of frankincense in the dish destined to hold it. Ordinarily, everything brought in actual ministry unto God must be carried in the right hand- the incense in the right and the censer in the left. But on this occasion, as the censer for the Day of Atonement was larger and heavier than usual, the high-priest was allowed to reverse the common order. Every eye was strained towards the sanctuary as, slowly bearing the censer and the incense, the figure of the white-robed high-priest was seen to disappear within the Holy Place. After that nothing further could be seen of his movements.

The Mercy-seat
The curtain of the Most Holy Place was folded back, and the high-priest stood alone and separated from all the people in the awful gloom of the Holiest of All, only lit up by the red glow of the coals in the priest's censer. In the first Temple the ark of God had stood there with the 'mercy-seat' over-shadowing it; above it, the visible presence of Jehovah in the cloud of the Shechinah, and on either side the outspread wings of the cherubim; and the high-priest had placed the censer between the staves of the ark. But in the Temple of Herod there was neither Shechinah nor ark- was empty; and the high-priest rested his censer on a large stone, called the 'foundation-stone.' He now most carefully emptied the incense into his hand, and threw it on the coals of the censer, as far from himself as possible, and so waited till the smoke had filled the Most Holy Place.

---

It very well could be that this censer was not kept in the Most Holy place until after the events of 2Chr 26:19, when king Uzziah went into the secondary sanctuary to burn incense with it in his hand. He may have picked it up from inside the secondary sanctuary as it may have been kept by the altar of incense, (we simply do not know because the text never tells us, at least as far as I know). If this is the case then it seems only logical that this very event and this very time would be when and why they began to keep it behind the veil in the Most Holy place. You probably do not need me to expound those passages I quoted from the Septuagint, (they surely speak of the censer and use the same word as I highlighted), for you can get the meaning from pretty much any English translation but especially in that case from the Brenton English translation of the Septuagint, (bible.hub, etc.). I'll post the Brenton:

2 Chronicles 26:19 LXX Brenton English Translation
19 And Ozias was angry, and in his hand was the censer [το θυμιατηριον - G2369 - Heb 9:4] to burn incense in the temple: and when he was angry with the priests, then the leprosy rose up in his forehead before the priests in the house of the Lord, over the altar of incense [επανω του θυσιαστηριου των θυμιαματων].

"το θυμιατηριον" is most definitely "the censer", (not just "a censer"). Moreover what is used here for the altar of incense at the end of the statement is not the same word but the word for an altar, (G2379 θυσιαστηριον).

In the Ezekiel passage there can be no mistaking how the same word is used for censer: but this time it speaks not of "the censer" but the smaller common censers held by the priests and Levites, (showing even more positively that this word was indeed used for both censers and "the censer").

Ezekiel 8:11 LXX
11 και εβδομηκοντα ανδρες εκ των πρεσβυτερων οικου ισραηλ και ιεζονιας ο του σαφαν εν μεσω αυτων ειστηκει προ προσωπου αυτων και εκαστος θυμιατηριον αυτου ειχεν εν τη χειρι και η ατμις του θυμιαματος ανεβαινεν

Ezekiel 8:11 LXX Brenton English Translation
11 And seventy men of the elders of the house of Israel, and Jechonias the son of Saphan stood in their presence in the midst of them, and each one held his censer [G2369 θυμιατηριον - Heb 9:4] in his hand; and the smoke of the incense went up.

I was just thinking that the author of Hebrews is speaking of the Tabernacle so I may have been wrong about it not being kept behind the veil: [before the time of Uzziah] we simply have no way of knowing as far as I know. Moreover there are some who object to what has been presented because of other reasons, which we need not bring up here, for either way, saying that Heb 9:4 is erroneous is entirely off the table, and that was really the overall point brought up here by the accusers to begin with. The Septuagint clearly uses the same word from Heb 9:4 to describe a censer in at least two places, (two witnesses), even if there may be other places where the same word might have been used for the altar of incense.

Do you agree with my understanding now? Because I don't due to the fact the high priest needs to be holding the incense as well? :darwinsm:

May be he had tray?

Why can you not hear the scripture?
Here is a better translation of the same Leviticus statement, again:

Leviticus 16:12-13
12 He shall take the censer full of coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil:
13 and he shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the testimony, so that he not die.

There is another account I am aware of but cannot remember where it comes from, (perhaps Josephus?), where it was said that the most difficult duty of the chief priest in this day was carrying the incense and the censer into the Most Holy place because he actually had to have two hands, (plural), full of incense and therefore was required to carry the censer under his armpit into the Most Holy place, (a task so difficult that the potential fill-ins and those who might be chief priest one day had to rigorously train for this duty).

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

:doh: The golden altar of incense was not inside the Holy Holies. There was not both "a shovel and a censer" in this occasion but only "the censer". Moreover, ask GloryDaz and I bet she knows that I have already spoken of "the censer" as opposed to "a censer", or are you too prideful to ask her anything in sincerity also? (and why is it that when you do actually ask me something it more often seems to be for the purpose of catching me in my words than anything else?). Moreover the incense was not already in the censer with the burning coals while Ahron took it into the Holy Holies, but rather, the incense was cast onto the burning coals in the censer after the censer with the burning coals was brought into the Holy Holies and placed upon the two staves of the Ark. This has mostly all already been explained, and just as the text says, Ahron, (and all his sons after that), was/were commanded to enter the Holy Holies with both the censer full of burning coals, and at the same time, TWO HANDS FULL of incense.







Why can you not hear the scripture?
Here is a better translation of the same Leviticus statement, again:

Leviticus 16:12-13
12 He shall take the censer full of coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and two handfuls of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the veil:
13 and he shall put the incense on the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the testimony, so that he not die.

This was my first conclusion after you mentioned the Altar in Heb 9:4 was actually a Censor:

Post #1792:
"In conclusion I believe Paul was saying that the hand held censor was the only other object (along with the Ark, priests robes and breast plate) that was aloud into the Holy Holies. Do you believe that is what Paul was saying?":

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5166017&viewfull=1#post5166017

However, I was swayed by Heb 9:4 by the word 'having';

2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Definition: I have, hold, possess.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-4.htm

As is sounds just as it sounds. i.e. the censer remaining in the H of H all year? But I see this is not practical/sensible/logical so will just accept that it went in once a year.

cobra, do you agree?

 

[daqq]

This was my first conclusion after you mentioned the Altar in Heb 9:4 was actually a Censor:

Post #1792:
"In conclusion I believe Paul was saying that the hand held censor was the only other object (along with the Ark, priests robes and breast plate) that was aloud into the Holy Holies. Do you believe that is what Paul was saying?":

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...ed-Scripture&p=5166017&viewfull=1#post5166017

However, I was swayed by Heb 9:4 by the word 'having';

2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Definition: I have, hold, possess.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-4.htm

As is sounds just as it sounds. i.e. the censer remaining in the H of H all year? But I see this is not practical/sensible/logical so will just accept that it went in once a year.

cobra, do you agree?

Not sure if you are responding to me also because of your question to Cobra at the end of your post, (even though you quoted my post). But the reason you cannot understand how what I have said is really possible is because the Letter is killing you. :chuckle:

Change your thinking or you will die:

1 Kings 8:6-9 KJV
6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims.
7 For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy place before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day.
9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Hebrews 9:3-4
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy Holies:
4 having a golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and the rod of Aaron that budded, and the tables of the covenant:

Herein is the Rhema:

Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another Angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the holy ones, ascended up before Elohim out of the hand of the Angel.

You, like Cobra and Zenn, cannot get to where you need to be with your current mindset: otherwise you all will continue to curse yourselves by claiming that the scripture is full of errors because it does not agree with *you*, (and it never will). The manna in the pot is Rhema: everything outside of the Ten Words is a byproduct of the Ten Words and the Rhema given to Moses through those Ten Words written in the stone tablets by the Finger of Elohim. The pot of manna, just as the other things listed in the Hebrews passage which are said to be in the Ark, are things WRITTEN and therefore do not necessarily need be physically placed inside the Ark, (the tablets were placed inside the Ark while the written Torah was placed in the side of the Ark, Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV). You have the "pot of manna" and "the rod of Ahron" right in front of you when you read of those things in the holy text, (the Living Oracles of Elohim as also previously discussed, Acts 7:38, Rom 3:2, Heb 5:12,13, 1Pet 4:11)

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Not sure if you are responding to me also because of your question to Cobra at the end of your post, (even though you quoted my post). But the reason you cannot understand how what I have said is really possible is because the Letter is killing you. :chuckle:

Change your thinking or you will die:

1 Kings 8:6-9 KJV
6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims.
7 For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy place before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day.
9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Hebrews 9:3-4
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy Holies:
4 having a golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was a golden pot holding the manna, and the rod of Aaron that budded, and the tables of the covenant:

Herein is the Rhema:

Revelation 8:3-4
3 And another Angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the holy ones upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the holy ones, ascended up before Elohim out of the hand of the Angel.

You, like Cobra and Zenn, cannot get to where you need to be with your current mindset: otherwise you all will continue to curse yourselves by claiming that the scripture is full of errors because it does not agree with *you*, (and it never will). The manna in the pot is Rhema: everything outside of the Ten Words is a byproduct of the Ten Words and the Rhema given to Moses through those Ten Words written in the stone tablets by the Finger of Elohim. The pot of manna, just as the other things listed in the Hebrews passage which are said to be in the Ark, are things WRITTEN and therefore do not necessarily need be physically placed inside the Ark, (the tablets were placed inside the Ark while the written Torah was placed in the side of the Ark, Deuteronomy 31:26 KJV). You have the "pot of manna" and "the rod of Ahron" right in front of you when you read of those things in the holy text, (the Living Oracles of Elohim as also previously discussed, Acts 7:38, Rom 3:2, Heb 5:12,13, 1Pet 4:11)

I was primarily addressing you.

Trying to understand you is like listening to my old analogue radio, sometimes the reception is good other times it may as well be gobbledegook.

You have me all wrong daqq I am simply after the truth. It would pain me to try and build my own theology that is not rooted in the scriptures. I also do not work from assumption, or at least I try to. The question put forward about Heb 9:4 and all the others here have never bothered me, I always have believed that the Bible (66 book version) in Greek & Hebrew as a base is the best information we have on the nature of this reality. I have generally accepted that there are no contradictions but definitely differences in accounts which only adds to the validity.

Up to now we have not even dealt with my biggest scriptural concern: John 6:4 (and when I say concern I'm probably more concerned about my wobbly fence in the garden, truth be told).

 

[2003cobra]

You're blaming Lon for what your partner in evil does?

You boys need to get your stories straight. :chuckle:

Didn’t you notice?

I have encouraged Watchman to take the high ground and not to insult people also.

No one should do that.

 

[2003cobra]

Are you saying you believe there were one or two Altars of Incense? and where were they? As far as I can tell from the Bible there was only one Altar of Incense and from Hebrews 9:4 I am tending to believe Paul was talking about a smaller hand held censor, see post #1792:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5166017&viewfull=1#post5166017

The word used in Hebrews 9:4 also translates to fire pan (shovel) which could indicate that the coals were carried into the H of H with this shovel in one hand of the High Priest and the sprinkling bowel in the other. He could then put the coals into the censor which had been left open on the floor from last year. putting down the shovel and picking up the censor he could then swing it about till there was a nice cloud over the mercy seat. Now he could put the censor down and begin sprinkling the blood. After communing with God was over, he would have to empty the ash out of the censor into the shovel and leave it open for next year.

I know this censor is not mentioned in the OT as far as I'm aware and this is the only problem I see with this but any alternative would involve moving the Altar into the H of H or there being two Altars? Both of which present bigger scriptural problems.

I can a the shovel on the Altar.

I am saying there was no altar of incense or censer in the Holy Of Holies, and there is a minor, insignificant error in Hebrews saying the censer or golden altar of incense (depending on the translation) was held in the Holy Of Holies.

By the way, have you noticed that no one will touch the questions about Jairus?

 

[daqq]

I was primarily addressing you.

Trying to understand you is like listening to my old analogue radio, sometimes the reception is good other times it may as well be gobbledegook.

You have me all wrong daqq I am simply after the truth. It would pain me to try and build my own theology that is not rooted in the scriptures. I also do not work from assumption, or at least I try to. The question put forward about Heb 9:4 and all the others here have never bothered me, I always have believed that the Bible (66 book version) in Greek & Hebrew as a base is the best information we have on the nature of this reality. I have generally accepted that there are no contradictions but definitely differences in accounts which only adds to the validity.

Up to now we have not even dealt with my biggest scriptural concern: John 6:4 (and when I say concern I'm probably more concerned about my wobbly fence in the garden, truth be told).

Yes, of course it is your biggest scriptural concern because it has to do with your beloved calendar, lol. John 6:4 is Pesach Sheni of Num 9:11, (according to the first century Yhudim understanding of that passage but outside the Testimony of Messiah), which is why the Master stayed in the Galil, and yet another reason why your understanding of the calendar is deficient, (John 5:1 is the custom of the feast of the daughter of Yephtah, Judges 11:39,40, 21:19). The ministry of Messiah is one year plus some days: a Passover, (John 2:13), to a Passover, "Your Lamb (of Elohim) shall be perfect, a male, the son of a year."

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I am saying there was no altar of incense or censer in the Holy Of Holies, and there is a minor, insignificant error in Hebrews saying the censer or golden altar of incense (depending on the translation) was held in the Holy Of Holies.

By the way, have you noticed that no one will touch the questions about Jairus?

Bring it on! I have see it but am still just putting this one to bed first.

Now the way I see it is that Paul meant that the censor was one of the only objects allowed into the H of H.

Does that square the circle for you or do you see it as special pleading and if so why?

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Yes, of course it is your biggest scriptural concern because it has to do with your beloved calendar, lol. John 6:4 is Pesach Sheni of Num 9:11, (according to the first century Yhudim understanding of that passage but outside the Testimony of Messiah), which is why the Master stayed in the Galil, and yet another reason why your understanding of the calendar is deficient, (John 5:1 is the custom of the feast of the daughter of Yephtah, Judges 11:39,40, 21:19). The ministry of Messiah is one year plus some days: a Passover, (John 2:13), to a Passover, "Your Lamb (of Elohim) shall be a male, perfect, the son of a year."

You have assumed wrong. It has nothing to do with God's ancient lunar solar Calendar as described in the Bible, which a different calendar to Hillel II's calendar that he created in 359 AD. Or in deed any of the Roman calendars.

 

[daqq]

You have assumed wrong. It has nothing to do with God's ancient lunar solar Calendar as described in the Bible

Hmmm, it appears that you do not yet know that the whole calendar is expounded and laid out in that Gospel account, (including the shabuim-weeks of yamim). How therefore is it possible for you to understand the hours of the crucifixion in the great day at Golgotha? (it isn't). :chuckle:

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Hmmm, it appears that you do not yet know that the whole calendar is expounded and laid out in that Gospel account, (including the shabuim-weeks of yamim). How therefore is it possible for you to understand the hours of the crucifixion in the great day at Golgotha? (it isn't). :chuckle:

No I said John 6:4
The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

Just this verse.

 

[2003cobra]

Bring it on! I have see it but am still just putting this one to bed first.

Now the way I see it is that Paul meant that the censor was one of the only objects allowed into the H of H.

Does that square the circle for you or do you see it as special pleading and if so why?

I quoted the Greek Word used to say the Holy Of Holies “held” the golden altar of incense. The writer of Hebrews, whoever that was, did not say “allowed in.”

My living room holds a couch and a love seat and some small tables.

I did not say those things are allowed in my living room.

 

[daqq]

No I said John 6:4
The Jewish Passover Festival was near.

Just this verse.

Lol, if you do not believe what I said to you then you have of yourself created yet another contradiction: your version of Messiah is therefore a lawbreaker for not going up to Jerusalem at the Passover. He clearly stayed in the Galilees and fed the five thousand: it is right there in the text, plain as day. Purchase some eye-salve from the Master so that you may see, (Jhn 6:1-6, 6:16-17). John 6:4 is therefore Pesach Sheni of Num 9:11, (according to how the first century Yhudim observed it), just as I said to you. You can bring water to a beast but you cannot force him to drink, (or something like that, no, wait, yeah that's right in this case, lol). :chuckle:

 

[2003cobra]

This was my first conclusion after you mentioned the Altar in Heb 9:4 was actually a Censor:

Post #1792:
"In conclusion I believe Paul was saying that the hand held censor was the only other object (along with the Ark, priests robes and breast plate) that was aloud into the Holy Holies. Do you believe that is what Paul was saying?":

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127447-Scripture-What-is-considered-Scripture&p=5166017&viewfull=1#post5166017

However, I was swayed by Heb 9:4 by the word 'having';

2192. echó ►
Strong's Concordance
echó: to have, hold
Original Word: ἔχω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: echó
Phonetic Spelling: (ekh'-o)
Short Definition: I have, hold, possess
Definition: I have, hold, possess.

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-4.htm

As is sounds just as it sounds. i.e. the censer remaining in the H of H all year? But I see this is not practical/sensible/logical so will just accept that it went in once a year.

cobra, do you agree?

I have not looked in much detail past the obvious error: that the writer of Hebrews said the Holy of Holies held the golden altar of incense, or the censer.

Yes, the writer of Hebrews does present the censer as staying there, not visiting once a year,