Scientists Question Darwinism

[genuineoriginal]

Its no longer "creationist" after the decision by the Supreme Court, its now been changed to "intelligent design"

Non-Christians can use "intelligent design" but Christians believe in a Creator.

Are we to believe that God is incapable of employing evolution over a 4 billion year period as part of His plan?

I always find it amazing when people base their argument on whether God is capable of doing something instead of on whether God would choose to do something.

Well, I suppose that God could have forced creation to suffer through 4 billion years and all the deaths that would have happened with such a horribly inefficient method of creating different species as evolution.

But, it was much quicker to create the heaven and the earth in only six days and much more efficient to create each kind of animal during that time.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

The truth, which you want to deny, is that the vast majority of biologists will not go against the evolutionary theory because their livelihood depends on supporting the consensus of the evolutionary theory.

I think it is more along the lines that auto mechanics that don't understand the principles of internal combustion have a hard time keeping jobs.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I think it is more along the lines that auto mechanics that don't understand the principles of internal combustion have a hard time keeping jobs.

Since the consensus falsely believes that evolution is the principle behind biology, that kind of thinking is pervasive.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Since the consensus falsely believes that evolution is the principle behind biology, that kind of thinking is pervasive.

Since as you point out that it is the consensus by 97%, falsely seems questionable or at least debatable.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Since as you point out that it is the consensus by 97%, falsely seems questionable or at least debatable.

You know that consensus is not science.

Consensus Is Not Science “I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had. “Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. “There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period."

​

 

[Kit the Coyote]

You know that consensus is not science.

​

​

You are right it is not any more than denial is science. But when based on the research and science, an overwhelming consensus forms among the community of one hypothesis over the others, it is a good sign you are moving in the right direction. Not an assured sign but a good one.

 

[jgarden]

..... I always find it amazing when people base their argument on whether God is capable of doing something instead of on whether God would choose to do something.

Well, I suppose that God could have forced creation to suffer through 4 billion years and all the deaths that would have happened with such a horribly inefficient method of creating different species as evolution.

But, it was much quicker to create the heaven and the earth in only six days and much more efficient to create each kind of animal during that time.

Job 36:26
How great is God—beyond our understanding!
The number of his years is past finding out.

Presumably "genuineoriginal" understands what is "beyond the understanding" for the rest of us mortals!

 

[jgarden]

evolution is a process that leads more often to death, disfigurement, disease, defects and disabilities than to beneficial changes

to suggest that God would use this process to create man suggests a god that is uncaring at best, deliberately cruel at worst

Romans 11:33-36

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and[a] knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!

34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?”

35 “Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?”

36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
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"Ok dossier" just promoted himself to to the head of the class as TOL's resident conservative authority on "evolution" and 2nd guessing "the wisdom and knowledge of God!"

 

[jgarden]

..... “Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

“There is no such thing as consensus science. If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period."

How ironic for conservative Christians to make this claim when history has shown them to have been in the vanguard when it came to denouncing a condemning those very "greatest scientists" when they broke with the consensus! ie. Galileo, Darwin

Roger Bacon (1220-1292) - an English Franciscan friar who is was a scientist and considered one of the pioneers of the "scientific method" and was noted for his use of empirical observation. His greatest work was the Opus Major, which contains treatments of mathematics, optics, alchemy, and astronomy, including theories on the positions and sizes of the celestial bodies. Bacon appears to have been imprisoned by the ecclesiastical authorities sometime around 1279 and may have died in captivity.

Galileo Galilei (1564–1642)- an Italian astronomer, physicist and engineer, sometimes described as a polymath. Galileo has been called the "father of observational astronomy", the "father of modern physics", the "father of the scientific method", and the "father of modern science".

Galileo studied speed and velocity, gravity and free fall, the principle of relativity, inertia, projectile motion and also worked in applied science and technology, describing the properties of pendulums and "hydrostatic balances", inventing the thermoscope and various military compasses, and using the telescope for scientific observations of celestial objects. His contributions to observational astronomy include the telescopic confirmation of the phases of Venus, the observation of the four largest satellites of Jupiter, the observation of Saturn and the analysis of sunspots.

Galileo's championing of heliocentrism and Copernicanism was controversial during his lifetime, when most subscribed to either geocentrism or the Tychonic system.The matter was investigated by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was "foolish and absurd in philosophy, and formally heretical since it explicitly contradicts in many places the sense of Holy Scripture." He was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy", and forced to recant. He spent the rest of his life under house arrest

 

[jgarden]

wThe Index librorum prohibitorum (English:
was a list of publications deemed heretical, or contrary to morality by the Sacred Congregation of the Index (a former Dicastery of the Roman Curia) and thus Catholics were forbidden to read them without permission.
********************************************
1585 Dante Alighieri De Monarchia (1312–13)?
1600 Bruno, Giordano Opera omnia
1616 Nicolaus Copernicus De revolutionibus orbium coelestium (1543)
1620 Johannes Kepler Astronomia nova (1609);Harmonices Mundi (1619);
Epitome Astronomiae Copernicanae (1617–21)
1626 Grotius, Hugo Opera omnia theological et al
1645 Browne, Thomas Religio medici; the religion of a physician
1649 Hobbes, Thomas Opera omnia
1657 Pascal, Blaise Lettres provinciales (1657)
1659 Calvin, John Lexicon iuridicum iuris caesarei simul et canonici
1663 Descartes, René Meditations (1641);
1667 Leti, Gregorio Opera omnia
1668 Bacon, Francis De dignitate et augmentis scientiarum libri
1676 Montaigne, Michel de Essays
1679, Spinoza, Baruch Tractatus Theologico-Politicus (1677);
1684 Eriugena, Johannes Scotus De divisione naturae libri quinque diu desiderati
1694 Milton, John Literae pseudo-senatus anglicani, Paradise Lost(1667)
1703 La Fontaine, Jean de Contes et Nouvelles
1717 Maimonides 'Tractate on Idolatry from the Mishneh Torah
1729 Addison, Joseph Remarks on Several Parts of Italy (1705)
1734 Locke, John An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1689)
1738 Swedenborg, Emanuel Principia (1734)
1742 Berkeley, George Alciphron, or The Minute Philosopher
1743 Defoe, Daniel The Political History of the Devil (1726)
1744 Richardson, Samuel Pamela, or Virtue Rewarded (1740)
1751 Montesquieu Lettres Persanes (1721)
1752, Voltaire Candide (1759);Traité sur la tolérance (1763) +39 more
1758 Diderot, Denis Encyclopédie, ou dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers (1751–72)
1758 d'Alembert, Jean le Rond Encyclopédie, ou dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers (1751–72)
1759 Helvétius, Claude Adrien De l'Esprit (1758);
1761 Hume, David Opera omnia
1762 Rousseau, Jean-Jacques Émile, ou de l'éducation (1762);Du contrat social (1762)
1764 Kollár, Adam František De originibus et usu perpetuo potestatis legislatoriae circa sacra apostolicorum regum Ungariae (1764)
1783 Gibbon, Edward Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776–1788)
1815 Michelet, Jules 6 titles
1817 Dstwin, Erasmus Zoonomia; or The Laws of Organic Life (1794)
1819 Sterne, Laurence A Sentimental Journey Through France and Italy
1827 Condorcet, Nicholas de Sketch for a Historical Picture of the Progress of the Human Mind (1794)
1827 Kant, Immanuel Critique of Pure Reason (1781)
1828 Stendhal Omnes fabulae amatoriae
1834 Lamennais, Hugues Felicité Robert de 7 works
1834 Casanova, Giacomo Mémoires
1835 Bentham, Jeremy Deontology, or The science of morality (1834) +3 more
1836 Heine, Heinrich Reisebilder;
De l'Allemagne;
1840 Sand, George Omnes fabulae amatoriae
1841 Balzac, Honoré de Omnes fabulae amatoriae
1849 Gioberti, Vincenzo Opera omnia
1852 Proudhon, Pierre-Joseph Opera omnia
1856 Mill, John Stuart Principles of Political Economy (1848)
1859 Renan, Ernest 19 titles
1863 Dumas, Alexandre (son) Omnes fabulae amatoriae; La question du divorce
1863 Dumas, Alexandre (father) Omnes fabulae amatoriae [ax]
1864 Comte, Auguste Cours de philosophie positive
1864 Flaubert, Gustave Madame Bovary (1856);
1873 Larousse, Pierre Grand dictionnaire universel du XIXe siècle (1866–76)
1876 Draper, John William History of the Conflict between Religion and Science (1874)
1894 Zola, Émile Opera Omnia
1911, 1928, 1935,
1939 D'Annunzio, Gabriele Omnia opera dramatica
1914 Bergson, Henri Essai sur les données immédiates de la conscience;
1914 Maeterlinck, Maurice Opera omnia
1922 France, Anatole Opera omnia
1931 van de Velde, Theodoor Hendrik Het volkomen huwelijk (1926)
1948 Sartre, Jean-Paul Opera omnia
1952 Gide, André Opera omnia
1952 Moravia, Alberto Opera omnia
1953 Kazantzakis, Nikos The Last Temptation of Christ (1955)
1956 de Beauvoir, Simone The Second Sex (1949);The Mandarins (1954)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_and_works_on_the_Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum
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The List of Prohibited Book banned the works of many of Europe's greatest thinkers for the past 500 years!

Many of the French philosophers and English political scientists on the list provided the conceptual framework for the American Revolution and the Constitution.

 

[The Barbarian]

Given the many creationist scientists who are employed at universities and publish articles in journals, it's useful to consider how creationists treat dissent when they have control.

Many fundamentalist colleges are accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools. This organization requires that every student in an accredited school affirm “the divine work of non-evolutionary creation including persons in God’s image.”

So YE creationists can study, work, and publish in any university, but when they are running things, they make sure no dissent is allowed.

This is one of the major differences between science and YE creationism.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Answers in Genisis, a source that some seem to think are a valid scientific reference site, requires its employees to sign a statement of faith that includes the position that all aspects of Creationism are a true science and any questioning of that is subject for termination.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

. This is one of the major differences between science and YE creationism.

I don't know if you believe that all people are born with a conscience, an inborn knowledge of what behavior is good and what is not good.

If you do then how would you explain people having a conscience if they are evolved.

 

[The Barbarian]

I don't know if you believe that all people are born with a conscience, an inborn knowledge of what behavior is good and what is not good.

How would you then explain this:

Romans 1:19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

And this:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: [15] Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another,

Clearly every person has in his heart, the understanding of good and evil.

If you do then how would you explain people having a conscience if they are evolved.

If God chose to give us that conscience by natural means, would it offend you? Since every person is given a soul directly by God, it's not unreasonable to think that our consciences were part of His gift. It is true that our minds are centered in our nervous system, and while the mind might be an epiphenomenon of our brains, that is not all it is, for God says that our bodies and souls are a unity.

I don't really care whether it's something that evolved according to His will, or it's something given to us as we are given souls. What do you think would be different?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If God chose to give us that conscience by natural means, would it offend you? Since every person is given a soul directly by God, it's not unreasonable to think that our consciences were part of His gift. It is true that our minds are centered in our nervous system, and while the mind might be an epiphenomenon of our brains, that is not all it is, for God says that our bodies and souls are a unity.

The Apostle Paul speaks of the "inner man" and the "outward man" and he speaks of that "ínner man" being "clothed upon" by the "outward man." Then when a person dies physically Paul described that as being "naked," having neither an earthly body nor a body which is from heaven (2 Cor.5:1-5).

 

[The Barbarian]

The Apostle Paul speaks of the "inner man" and the "outward man" and he speaks of that "ínner man" being "clothed upon" by the "outward man." Then when a person dies physically Paul described that as being "naked," having neither an earthly body nor a body which is from heaven (2 Cor.5:1-5).

That fits pretty well, doesn't it?

The human person, created in the image of God, is a being at once corporeal and spiritual. The biblical account expresses this reality in symbolic language when it affirms that "then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."229 Man, whole and entire, is therefore willed by God.

363 In Sacred Scripture the term "soul" often refers to human life or the entire human person.230 But "soul" also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God's image: "soul" signifies the spiritual principle in man.

364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:232

364 Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day. 233

365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

People in their flesh and blood bodies cannot enter the eternal, heavenly kingdom (1 Cor.15:50).

 

[genuineoriginal]

Job 36:26
How great is God—beyond our understanding!
The number of his years is past finding out.

Presumably "genuineoriginal" understands what is "beyond the understanding" for the rest of us mortals!

I don't claim to know how old God is (which is what the verse quoted is referring to).

I do claim to know how long it took God to create the heaven and the earth, because the Bible clearly states how long it took.

Exodus 20:11 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

​

 

[genuineoriginal]

How ironic for conservative Christians to make this claim when history has shown them to have been in the vanguard when it came to denouncing a condemning those very "greatest scientists" when they broke with the consensus! ie. Galileo, Darwin

Roger Bacon (1220-1292)

Roger Bacon was a creationist.

Galileo Galilei (1564–1642)

Galileo Galilei was a creationist.

Here is a list of more:
Creation scientists and other specialists of interest

 

[The Barbarian]

Roger Bacon was a creationist.

In that sense, so was Darwin:
There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species

He was not a YE creationist, since YE creationism was invented by men in the 20th century, to modify Genesis to their liking.

Galileo Galilei was a creationist.

But not a YE creationist because, YE creationism hadn't been invented yet.

Even before YE creationism was invented by men, Christians knew it was a false doctrine:

But if you will look in the first chapter of Genesis, you will see there more particularly set forth that peculiar operation of power upon the universe which was put forth by the Holy Spirit; you will then discover what was his special work. In Ge 1:2, we read, “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” We do not know how remote the period of the creation of this globe may be—certainly many millions of years before the time of Adam. Our planet has passed through various stages of existence, and different kinds of creatures have lived on its surface, all of which have been fashioned by God.
The great Baptist evangelist, Charles Spurgeon, Sermon No. 10

A creationist is a person who acknowledges that God created all things. A YE creationist is willing to admit that God created all things, but doesn't approve of the way He did it.