glorydaz
Well-known member
How could we differ on verse 13? Believers certainly don't live after the flesh...or do you think it means die physically?
Theology Club: SaulToPaul and the Epistle to the Romans
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
How could we differ on verse 13? Believers certainly don't live after the flesh...or do you think it means die physically?
And I'm sure our understanding of, for example, verse 13 will differ.
We just look at these things differently.
My sense of...
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
... is, if you try to serve God in your own strength, sin will revive, and you will die spiritually, because you are still subject to spiritual death through the flesh.
Galatians 5:
16. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
If you attempt to serve in your own strength, you will experience the condemnation (spiritual death) that Paul has been talking about in Romans 7 forward, though he began this issue in Romans 6.
You will be unable to walk in your Identity in Christ.
However, if you walk in an understanding of who the Spirit of God asserts in His Word He has made you in Christ (he is talking Identity issues - he is talking to Body members), you will put to death the members of your body, and live unto God; no problem.
This is why Grace churches, for example, don't make a big deal about the music, and you never hear a Grace preacher say - at least not a sound one, that is - "can I get an amen?"
Because the "revival," the true, spiritual revival, not the foolishness of emotion so many take as "oh, I feel the Spirit's leading" - the true, spiritual revival, is built into the doctrine.
Its what Paul is talking about when he talks about "the effectual working of his power," in Ephesians 3:7.
Its like Duracell batteries that never wear out.
Put them in, flip the switch, and their inert power does its thing.
Likewise with the Mystery - it "is of power to stablish you" in an understanding of who God has made you in His Son, that you might then walk in by faith in same, "Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving," Rom. 16:25; Col. 2:7.
It worketh in you that understand it in light of the Mystery, as well as believe, and then walk in same as your thanks giving - grace motivation!
I get all this out of that one passage in light of Romans thru Philemon.
If that is not Ephesians' Mystery there in Romans 8, unto Ephesians 3: 10's "intent," well, then, we will just have to agree, to disagree.
And I am fine that. For I have all that to be thankful for, as well as rejoice in!
glorydaz
Well-known member
If I've understood you correctly...then yes we most certainly disagree. You don't believe in eternal security I take it? Emotion has nothing to do with my understanding of what Paul has said. Just to make that clear right off the bat.
I am talking about how others, not Grace people, understand the Spirit's leading; not you.
And what laid out is not possible without the eternal security it is both based on, as well as towards the purpose of working its eternal glory in the Believer in the here and now.
This is Mystery doctrine.
As in Paul's description of how this works that he also describes in the following...
2 Corinthians 4's:
16. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
18. While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
You are thinking that by asserting what I have about Romans having been written to Body members, that I am asserting Romans 11's "cut off."
Yours is a valid concern.
At the same time, that does not necessarily mean that is what I am actually asserting.
I view Romans 9-11 as Dispensational. Its issue is that of agency.
Its the issue of who has temporarily been given the privilege to serve as God's agency unto the world.
Romans 11's "cut off" is the issue of the cutting off as fit unto service as God's "salvation army," to the world, if you will.
Think Paul's words to Israel in Acts 13, together with his words in Romans 11:23-29.
Israel was cut off as His agency, not from salvation! Even today, any Jew can come to the Lord through Paul's Uncircumcision gospel and grab a hold of eternal life!
The issue of agency - a kingdom of Priests, Deut. 19:6, Isaiah 49: 5-6 - was also why "it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken unto you" (Israel) Acts 13:46.
Now, did that cut off Israel's election - God Forbid, Rom. 11:23-29.
As Paul partly relates there in Romans 11 and elsewhere, this age will end in the Body's own agency failure; in departure "from the faith" as to that purpose unto which it was called.
And yet, our worst failure only points to why the Cross was necessary, Gal, 2:20!
A he also relates, elsewhere, (2 Tim), if we suffer with Him, we will not only reign with Him, as all in Him will, but, we who have suffered with Him will reign with Him with eternal glory!
heir
TOL Subscriber
I've told you that your labels are misrepresenting, divisive and cause confusion for others and yet you persist. It's a little late now to continue with this little act that it's all in good fun.
Obviously your view with or without the identifying label is closer to how Acts 28 views things than it is how Acts 9 has viewed them.
I'm done with attempting to reason with you about what I'd meant in jest, in light of the obvious.
Even your own have noted you can be a bit overly passionate about your view. Ok. I can respect that.
Still, the limitation that can also be, is what it is. You put your view out there, it appears similar to Acts 28, and I am not the only one within Acts 9 who has picked up on this, just as you are not the only one out there asserting your view.
I don't have a problem with your view. That is your perogative in your level of understanding, Rom. 14:5, 23.
You choose to make an issue out of a quip made in jest, simply out of the liberty we have in the Lord to not be so serious all the time . So be it.
You will not dictate my liberty.
I'm sorry we were not able to work this out.
The best to you all the same o passionate one.
No offence taken, none intended.
musterion
Well-known member
I'm still trying to figure how it's different from the KJO mudslinging he complained about yesterday, since you'd already asked him to stop.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The words in "bold" make up a first class conditional statement:
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Ro.8:8-9,15-17).
This is a simple explanation as to how Paul was using that conditional statement:
"The first class condition indicates the assumption of truth for the sake of argument. The normal idea, then, is if--and let us assume that this is true for the sake of argument--then...." (Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 690).
SaulToPaul said that none of these people in the church at Rome were already saved because they hadn't yet believed the gospel of Christ. Therefore, if he is right then Paul would know that none of them were saved. If that is true then he would never write these words to a group of people he knew to be unsaved:
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Ro.8:8-9,15-17).
You really are in a severe state of confusion as witnessed by the fact that you actually try to defend the idea that those in the church at Rome were not saved at the time when Paul wrote his epistle to them.
That idea is absurd and you cannot even see that it is.
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wouldn't it be safe to assume that some were saved and some weren't yet in the BOC ? a mixed bag so to speak - :juggle:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, that is true in most congregations.
But it is not safe to assume that none of those in the church at Rome when Paul wrote his epistle to them were saved. In fact, that idea is so ludicrous that anyone who will believe that will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous.
musterion
Well-known member
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, and in either case Paul is telling those in the church at Rome that the Spirit dwells in them. If Paul did not think that any of them were saved then he certainly never have written that to the church at Rome.
Agreed?
musterion
Well-known member
While I suspect Paul had serious doubts about some at Corinth and possibly Galatia, that is basically how I take him with regard to the Romans, yes. Had he doubted their salvation, it's odd he did not explicitly share his Gospel with them in his letter...his desire for fruit among them could simply be that--not necessarily wanting to see them saved. Also, he did say what he said in Romans 1:7.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I think that what he wrote here is the "gospel of the grace of God":
"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus" (Ro.3:21-24).
musterion
Well-known member
And they (to whom he wrote) already believed. They were already children of God and saints; he said so himself. So once again, I'm baffled by what the disagreement is around here. *shrug*
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The disagreement on this thread is my disagreement with SaulToPaul when he asserts that those in the church at Rome were not saved by the time when Paul wrote his epistle to them and that they were not in the Body of Christ.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Oh, I missed that point entirely.
Okay....that's good.
Oh, well that wasn't what I was thinking, but okay. :chuckle:
Hmmm....I don't think that is talking about the Body's failure at all. Paul can't be talking about "service" there. Nor do I believe he is referring to members of the body of Christ.
1 Timothy 4:1-3
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
glorydaz
Well-known member
What I find interesting, besides everyone being in a severe state of confusion but YOU, is that you have such a simplistic idea of why Paul wrote his letter in the first place....as if it was only to a group of people who resided in Rome. I'm of the opinion that the LORD had Paul write this letter and all his letters to us and all those who lived before and after us. The letter to Rome is called the Roman Road because it is filled with great truths the Risen Lord revealed to Paul and wanted passed on.
Now, if you must constantly speak to people from that high horse of yours, you'd best stop gouging him with those sharp spurs or he'll dump your behind in a big cactus bush and then you'll have to explain why you're having to spend your time picking stickers out of your bum. You might even need some help reaching all them, so I'd watch it if I were you. I'll just be :mock: Jerry.
Shasta
Well-known member
I believe you have established your point on the basis of exegesis which is the right way of arriving at the truth. Importing a meta-textual model that overrides what is actually stated is mere eisegesis. From what I have observed, the way MAD as presented by many amounts to little more than a snipe-hunt.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Perhaps they were like Apollos was before he heard Priscilla and Aquila. Called but not yet established in the Body.
Romans 1:5-8
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Acts 18:24-26
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.