Theology Club: SaulToPaul and the Epistle to the Romans
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
No, I was being facetious, as there is not one verse which states when the dispensation of the grace of God began.
Yep.
Its more like a perspective that a body of passages together result in the eyes of one's understanding then being able to see what began where, what's what, and all the rest.
Of course, men will often differ within Dispensationalism in general, not only within Mid-Acts, or what have you, on what those passages will be...
Thus, the need for the need to "put away childish things" when approaching these issues...
The need to put away the habit in some, of what really amounts to the "I'm four - YOU are NOT four!" insistence of one child to another...
That mind of "children in understanding," no matter who the "child" is, and that it itself makes obvious by its assertion "I have it, and you don't!"
If one is ever to begin to move towards a truer "perfect" (a fuller age in understanding) it will be "by reason of use," it will be by having decided at some point to "put away childish things" - 1 Cor. 2; 3; 13; 14; Eph. 4; Philips 1, Heb. 5.
dude, just the other day i thought about Acts 29. i wished there was one
Here ya go, another version of Acts 29, lol
http://jacksonsnyder.com/arc/pdf/Acts-29.pdf
Another which is not another? lol
http://www.britishisrael.co.uk/pdf/Long Lost Chapter of the Acts of the Apostles.pdf
glorydaz
Well-known member
Paul is explaining that those "of us as were baptized into Jesus"....by way of explanation of how it works....nothing in this portion that says what Paul thought about the recipients of his letter being saved. "If we have been planted" and "If we be dead with Christ" clearly shows there is a possibility of the readers not being such. I have to wonder if Jerry has ever sat in a church and listened to a preacher and the use of the royal "we" and "us". :think:
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Hi and IF we believe that Paul was saved by Grace in Acts 9:6 and if Paul was the FIRST / PROTO SAVED in 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 and then Paul was the FIRST one to enter the Body of Christ and the Dispensation of Grace BEGAN in Acts 9:6 !!
dan p
Last edited:
Yep to that also.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Are you going to argue that even though Paul told them this that they were not yet saved?:
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement" (Ro.5:11).
glorydaz
Well-known member
I would have gotten saved, too, if I'd just read the first four chapters of Romans. The "we" is speaking of all those who now received the atonement. It may have just happened...I'm sure Paul expected many would be saved from what he was writing, else why write it at all? Surely you don't think everyone in Rome believed before he preached his gospel to them. In fact, Romans 10 is very powerful and many hear that and confess Jesus as Lord....although you have denied that in the past, as I recall.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Not only were they told that they have received the atonement but this as well:
"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together" (Ro.8:8-9,15-17).
Are you willing to argue that Paul would tell the unsaved that they are in the Spirit and have received the Spirit of adoption and are the children of God and are joint-heirs with Christ?
heir
TOL Subscriber
quips are witty/ funny. It's a snide remark.
That is your projection into the intended sense of my words.
Quips are funny to those who are fine with whether or not they are agreed with.
On the other hand, although snide remarks are also in the eye of both sides of beholders, those who easily take issue with those who do not agree with them, tend to easily see a snide remark, where a quip was intended.
Besides, its not like I am off. Your view does share some aspects similar to what the Acts 28ers have attempted to solve for, how they have approached doing so, and what some of their conclusions have been.
Just as all groups who hold to Paul as our Apostle to begin with cannot but share some similarities in that.
You put your view out there. Well, some are bound to notice, at the very least, similar recurrent patterns between both schools of thought.
Me, I'd find that interesting. I would not take offence to having that pointed out.
musterion
Well-known member
I've been doing a lot of reading up on the 28 position. One thing I get from them, either implied or stated outright, is that Paul himself must be rightly divided; meaning a lot of the content from his earlier epistles cannot be taken as doctrine for us today. The point: they can correct me on this but I have never seen Heir or STP take anything that even resembles such a position on, say, Romans, Galatians or 1 Thess. If my read on them is right, then any such comparison to 28 for its own sake is simply not necessary. Even if you mean it in jest, it's not always coming across that way.
I meant it in jest because I do not take issue with them in our differences in understanding of these things.
They are similar in some ways. Not the same.
Both start out asserting a very similar understanding about the Romans for example.
Their point of departure being that the 28ers do not view the Romans going from Israel's program to the Body's.
Whereas the more standard acts 9 view does not begin the Romans in Israel's program to begin with.
The 28ers also view Romans 16:26 as a reference to a Mystery hidden in the OT.
Where the standard Acts 9 view does not.
And so forth, and so on...
Again, its to be expected that some will see these similar patterns at work in both views.
Especially someone like me; I have long been a student of what principles, or general rules of thumb behind how things work, their recurrent patterns point back to and so on.
This; simply because I am very curious about how all kinds of things work...
glorydaz
Well-known member
You don't see that part "if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you..." Does that sound like Paul thinks the Spirit of God does dwell in every listener? And please tell me how Paul is able to see that every reader has the Spirit dwelling in them. He has already explained about false brethren....he knows they exist, doesn't he?
Study out Paul's use of "if so be" "if ye be" in Romans through Philemon.
Try to identify and operating principle as to which means what when, given what he is talking about where and he is.
Case in point, Col. 2:
20. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col. 3:
1. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
In other words, look outside of Romans, as well as inside. Seek out recurrent patterns in his use of words and phrases.
Then, pick up your phone, call your kid and say "if you are my kid, you won't talk to me that way..."
"If ye" is not always a condition. Keep in mind, Paul was a Jew.
Think early Barbra Streisand movies - she is so Jewish in them.
"How she makes statements as if asking a question?," as many kids do today? lol
glorydaz
Well-known member
Study out Paul's use of "if so be" "if ye be" in Romans through Philemon.
Try to identify and operating principle as to which means what when, given what he is talking about where and he is.
Case in point, Col. 2:
20. Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col. 3:
1. If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
In other words, look outside of Romans, as well as inside. Seek out recurrent patterns in his use of words and phrases.
Then, pick up your phone, call your kid and say "if you are my kid, you won't talk to me that way..."
"If ye" is not always a condition. Keep in mind, Paul was a Jew.
Think early Barbra Streisand movies - she is so Jewish in them.
"How she makes statements as if asking a question?," as many kids do today? lol
That's cool, but in the case I cited I think it means exactly what Paul is saying. Paul is not so naïve that he believes everyone in any assembly is saved. That would be an impossibility...so like every preacher, he speaks to those who are saved and those who aren't saved yet. He lays out the case for both...not just here but most everywhere that I can think of.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
And I'm sure our understanding of, for example, verse 13 will differ.
We just look at these things differently.