Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

[Ask Mr. Religion]

3 - Only the agent of Freewill is the cause of his or her justification. Since we have been granted with Freewill, justification has become up to us to want and to achieve. (Gen. 4:7)

As long as you cling to odd notions of free will, this is the end result. Man causes his own justification. Sigh.

AMR

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

If you think about the fact that the so-called "New Testament" was not considered scripture when some statements in there were made such as....

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

It should be obvious that the Word here refers specifically to the Torah, but includes the prophets, ect. This is why 80% of the "NT" is either quotes from the Word, or based on some part of it in understanding. Which is also why most Christians don't really see the Hebrew roots of a book that was first written in Hebrew in the first place.

Knowing that then, it should also be obvious that He who was the Word made flesh, was ALSO this Word.

And testament is a poor translation. A testament is a will denoting a beginning and an end. A covenant, particularly a blood covenant, is ongoing but can be added to down the road.

So in this, I agree with you. :thumb:

The reason for II Tim. 3:16 is the author. The whole of the NT constitutes the gospel of Paul. It is only obvious that he needed to include his gospel as inspired word of God. Don't forget though that Jesus never even dreamed that the NT would ever rise. ...or Christianity for that matter. So, the claims claimed to be rooted in the Tanach are no more than attempts at vandalizing the Hebrew Scriptures with the Hellenism of Paul.

 

[beloved57]

Totally wrong! According to Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20, no one can fulfill the Law on behalf of another.

We have different Faith!

Those Christ lived and died for have been made righteous Rom 5:19 !

 

[Ben Masada]

1 - Replace? Who? Not Jesus.

2 - Paul preaches to Goyim of adoption unto Father Abraham, and a practice of justice that pre-dates Moses.

3 - Well, in most of his letters he does. I confess there are some things there that make me wonder if they weren't added later.

4 - Oh, interesting take on that verse. I had never read it that way.

5 - As nearly as I can tell, both groups use both groups of texts outside of what we might call the author's intent, rather freely.

Jarrod

1 - No, not Jesus but his Faith which was Judaism.

2 - I am aware that Paul claimed to have been called for an apostle to the Goyim. Can you show me when he decided to go to the Goyim, because, what I have is that all his life since his first station in Damascus and until his last in Rome, he never left the Jews in peace. (Acts 9:1,2, 28:17)

3 - You are getting in there.

4 - Indeed, Jesus was so sure about future persecutions of the Jews falsely for his sake that the other day I caught Assad, the Syrian dictator on the TV saying that he could not understand why America was so friendly with Israel when the Jews had killed their god.

5 - In my case, drop the Jew Jesus and I'll drop the former Jew Paul.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

As long as you cling to odd notions of free will, this is the end result. Man causes his own justification. Sigh.

AMR

Thanks for sharing with me your understanding.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

We have different Faith!

Those Christ lived and died for have been made righteous Rom 5:19 !

As I said: No one can die for another and none can be made righteous by another. (Jer. 31; Ezek. 18:20) Freewill has given us the right to choose to be righteous or not.

 

[beloved57]

As I said: No one can die for another and none can be made righteous by another. (Jer. 31; Ezek. 18:20) Freewill has given us the right to choose to be righteous or not.

What you say means nothing, those Christ lived and died for are made righteous Rom 5:19 !

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

What you say means nothing, those Christ lived and died for are made righteous Rom 5:19 !

But of course! I understand why what I say cannot mean any thing to you. You owe your loyalty to the gospel of Paul. I owe mine to the gospel of Jesus.

 

[beloved57]

But of course! I understand why what I say cannot mean any thing to you. You owe your loyalty to the gospel of Paul. I owe mine to the gospel of Jesus.

Rom 5:19 you don't believe that, you don't believe in God period!

 

[RBBI]

As I said: No one can die for another and none can be made righteous by another. (Jer. 31; Ezek. 18:20) Freewill has given us the right to choose to be righteous or not.

You're absolutely right. But because our brothers have needed the pattern and didn't access it, they veered off the pattern and lost understanding. On the Day of Atonement, the sin offering WAS NOT EATEN by the priests. Yet, Yeshua said, to eat of His body and drink of His blood, symbolized by the bread and the wine. But because they couldn't see WHO was talking, they made it carnal understanding. So how is this fulfilled without breaking the law, since not a bone (law = bones of the body, the framework) of His was broken? There must be a way.

Let me explain with part of another post I made today.....

All you need is the revelation of who the Son of God IS. He is not just Jesus the man of flesh (son of man) that enrobed Him, He is the holy Seed of God, THAT IS A SPIRIT MAN. Remember all seeds must bear fruit after their own kind, and His own kind was the Father, WHO IS A SPIRIT.

Peter got it right, and Yeshua said FLESH AND BLOOD (including the flesh man standing there in front of him) hath not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven = spiritual revelation. And by the way, THIS revelation is the rock that Yeshua built His body on.

There was absolutely no reason for Peter to believe that Yeshua, a man, could even be a son of God, after all, Peter was a JEW, and it would have been a nearly blasphemous concept.

Just like everything else, the flesh veils the Spirit and it takes a spiritual revelation to perceive the Truth. Just like the one Paul had on the road. HE SAW NO MAN, but heard the Spirit Seed tell him he was persecuting HIS body. His body, which is SPIRIT also, in the flesh of the believers he was persecuting.

Reread the scriptures with this understanding, pressing past your carnal mind preconceived conclusions about WHO is talking, and it's quite eye-opening. After all, didn't He say He only spoke what He heard the Spirit speak?

Only HaShem can remove sin and He chose to do so through His holy Seed, which is like Him, ie. SPIRIT. This is why Yeshua said when you've seen ME (me=the Seed Spirit man), you've seen the Father, because HE IS, the express image of Him, and as such cannot be seen without receiving the opening of our spiritual eyes, which happens with being born from above (out of New Jerusalem, our mother, which is ABOVE), the heavenly counterpart for the natural.

See, He put Adam to sleep but you can't find where He ever woke him up, UNTIL He prophesies arise and shake off the DUST (Adam was taken from the dust) and Messiah will give you light. Light is understanding; His "yoke" is light, understanding/authority rests upon the shoulders via the mind of Yeshua.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

Rom 5:19 you don't believe that, you don't believe in God period!

What do you mean, that I am an atheist? Hardly!

 

[beloved57]

What do you mean, that I am an atheist? Hardly!

If one doesn't believe Gods words, they don't believe in God!

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

So how is this fulfilled without breaking the law, since not a bone (law = bones of the body, the framework) of His was broken? There must be a way.

Believe me, the NT has done a mighty good work at showing us how badly Jesus broke the Law. Take a look at Mat. 23:13-33. Only in that text Jesus broke the Law more than several times by breaking the Golden Rule which covers the whole second part of the Decalogue.

Let me explain with part of another post I made today.....All you need is the revelation of who the Son of God IS. He is not just Jesus the man of flesh (son of man) that enrobed Him, He is the holy Seed of God, THAT IS A SPIRIT MAN. Remember all seeds must bear fruit after their own kind, and His own kind was the Father, WHO IS A SPIRIT.

As I can see, you are a loyal follower of the gospel of Paul. Did you know that Paul was the one who fabricated the idea that Jesus was the son of God? Read Acts 9:20. Do you know why? First because he was a former Hellenist Jew from birth. And second because he needed to replace the Jewish concept of Israel as the son of God for the individual one of Jesus. (Exod. 4:22,23) "Israel is My son."

Peter got it right, and Yeshua said FLESH AND BLOOD (including the flesh man standing there in front of him) hath not revealed this to you, but My Father which is in heaven = spiritual revelation. And by the way, THIS revelation is the rock that Yeshua built His body on.

Yeshua was a Jewish man and not a Christian Hellenist. He was loyal to his Faith which was Judaism. He never had any thing to do with the gospel of Paul. He never even dreamed that it would ever rise.

There was absolutely no reason for Peter to believe that Yeshua, a man, could even be a son of God, after all, Peter was a JEW, and it would have been a nearly blasphemous concept.

Now, here you are mistaken. Every Jew thinks of Israel as being the son of God according to Exod. 4:22,23. There is nothing blasphemous about this. Rather the individual concept is blasphemous. (Acts 9:20)

Just like everything else, the flesh veils the Spirit and it takes a spiritual revelation to perceive the Truth. Just like the one Paul had on the road. HE SAW NO MAN, but heard the Spirit Seed tell him he was persecuting HIS body. His body, which is SPIRIT also, in the flesh of the believers he was persecuting.

Well, there is a change here. I was waiting for the word "Christians". That Paul was persecuting Christians as all other Christians claim.

Reread the scriptures with this understanding, pressing past your carnal mind preconceived conclusions about WHO is talking, and it's quite eye-opening. After all, didn't He say He only spoke what He heard the Spirit speak?

If you are referring to Paul, the Spirit of God could have never spoken about a son of His without a biological father. That's why Acts 9:20 is akin to the Greek myth of the demigod.

Only HaShem can remove sin and He chose to do so through His holy Seed, which is like Him, ie. SPIRIT. This is why Yeshua said when you've seen ME (me=the Seed Spirit man), you've seen the Father, because HE IS, the express image of Him, and as such cannot be seen without receiving the opening of our spiritual eyes, which happens with being born from above (out of New Jerusalem, our mother, which is ABOVE), the heavenly counterpart for the natural.

Elohim the Father has no image, if you read Isa. 46:5 and Deut. 4:15,16. BTW, it is an act of idolatry to refer to Jesus as the expressed image of the Almighty.

See, He put Adam to sleep but you can't find where He ever woke him up, UNTIL He prophesies arise and shake off the DUST (Adam was taken from the dust) and Messiah will give you light. Light is understanding; His "yoke" is light, understanding/authority rests upon the shoulders via the mind of Yeshua.

I know, light is understanding. That's why Paul wanted his followers to walk by faith and not by sight aka understanding. (II Cor. 5:7) He probably would not take wise guys hanging around him. Hence, to walk by sight is to walk with understanding while to walk by faith is to leave the understanding with Paul.

 

[Bright Raven]

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

If one doesn't believe Gods words, they don't believe in God!

I believe God's Words according to the Tanach and not the NT. Every time Jesus referred to God's Words he had the Tanach in mind. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

 

[beloved57]

I believe God's Words according to the Tanach and not the NT. Every time Jesus referred to God's Words he had the Tanach in mind. The NT he never even dreamed would ever rise.

You don't believe Rom 5:19 you don't believe Gods Word!

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

Ephesians 2:8-9 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Faith causes no salvation if it does not come along with obedience of God's Law. If not under that condition, faith becomes like a body without the breath of life. (James 2:26) Dead if you know what I mean. All gifts of God are conditional to the obedience of God's Law.

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

You don't believe Rom 5:19 you don't believe Gods Word!

Rom. 5:19 is Paul's words, not God's. Those kinds of words you find only in the gospel of Paul. They even contradict the words of the Prophets of God who say that no one is supposed to be made righteous by the obedience of another. The responsibility is personal.

 

[beloved57]

Rom. 5:19 is Paul's words, not God's. Those kinds of words you find only in the gospel of Paul. They even contradict the words of the Prophets of God who say that no one is supposed to be made righteous by the obedience of another. The responsibility is personal.

You don't believe Rom 5:19 you don't believe Gods Word!

 

[Ben Masada]

Salvation by the Law or by Faith?

You don't believe Rom 5:19 you don't believe Gods Word!

That's right. Rom. 5:19 is in the gospel of Paul and I don't believe in Paul's word.