Ben Masada
New member
Cal hacavod, Bradley. There are more cheers in heaven for a repentant sinner than for a just one who never needs to repent.
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
- Thread starter Ben Masada
- Start date
Cal hacavod, Bradley. There are more cheers in heaven for a repentant sinner than for a just one who never needs to repent.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
Listen Interplanner could you quote to me an evidence that the apostles of Jesus did not validate the Law? Jesus himself validated the Law for them all when he said that as long as heaven and earth remain, not a single commandment of the Law will pass away. (Mat. 5:17-19) Heaven and earth are still out there. It means that the Law still remains just as in the day it was decreed.
Listen Interplanner could you quote to me an evidence that the apostles of Jesus did not validate the Law? Jesus himself validated the Law for them all when he said that as long as heaven and earth remain, not a single commandment of the Law will pass away. (Mat. 5:17-19) Heaven and earth are still out there. It means that the Law still remains just as in the day it was decreed.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
1 - I am Jewish.
2 - I believe none because of their credibility. I believe in the existence of God from studying the Scriptures with Physics.
3 - That's not my case because I do not appeal to authority to believe in God by understanding.
4 - Nothing is to be believed but to be considered; ...and to be believed only if we choose to.
5 - Poor evaluation of someone's beliefs.
1 - I am Jewish.
2 - I believe none because of their credibility. I believe in the existence of God from studying the Scriptures with Physics.
3 - That's not my case because I do not appeal to authority to believe in God by understanding.
4 - Nothing is to be believed but to be considered; ...and to be believed only if we choose to.
5 - Poor evaluation of someone's beliefs.
Ben,
Where are those who follow the Law? If they were then they would have the blessings that were promised with obedience yet there has been no blessing.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The purpose of the Law has never changed. It was given to show men what sin is and to lead them to Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Galatians 3:23-25
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Wick Stick
Well-known member
1 - I know.
2 - The fact that it does NOT coincide with your beliefs is the reason for mentioning it in the first place. If you want to talk about New Testament verses (whether you believe them or not), you really ought to evaluate them for what they actually mean.
3 - Huh? We appear to be talking past each other. Not sure how this is relevant to what I said.
4 - Whether you believe the Bible or not, basing an argument on a faulty interpretation of a text isn't kosher.
5 - Not an evaluation of your beliefs. I already know what they are. Simply suggesting that your misuse of the word is understandable, since half the Christians do the same.
Jarrod
Ben Masada
New member
We do not obey the Law with a mind in rewards. Only dogs obey for treats. We obey simply because it is a Jewish thing to obey.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
1 - Glorydaz, if you open the Tanach , anywhere, and quote to me wherefrom you got that definition for the reason the Law was given, I promise you to become a Christian just the way you are. Yes Glorydaz, just the way you are. Please, the Tanach I said, not the holy book of another religion; in your case, the NT.
2 - Who would use the Law not lawfully? Perhaps only Paul who would serve the Law of God only in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. That's in Rom. 7:25.
3 - For all that have committed a sin on earth. Oh yes because, there has never been a man upon earth who has done only good and has never sinned. (Eccles. 7:20) And that includes Jesus, mind you, who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life.
4 - Glorydaz, let nothing misguide you, honey, into thinking that there is justification anywhere else but in the obedience of God's Law. Repentance and obedience of the Law is the only way to set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red, become as white as snow. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus himself implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)
5 - What a disingenuous hope Gloridaz! There are only three dimensions as the Law is concern. a) Above the Law which only God is; b) Under the Law which only law-abiding citizens are; and c) Outlaws which are those who claim not to be under the Law aka the criminals. Justification is reserved only to those who are under the Law. Sorry to rain on your parade, if you expected to achieve justification by faith without obeying the Law. Such a faith is as good as dead; just like a body without its breath of life if you know what I mean. (James 2:26)
1 - Glorydaz, if you open the Tanach , anywhere, and quote to me wherefrom you got that definition for the reason the Law was given, I promise you to become a Christian just the way you are. Yes Glorydaz, just the way you are. Please, the Tanach I said, not the holy book of another religion; in your case, the NT.
2 - Who would use the Law not lawfully? Perhaps only Paul who would serve the Law of God only in his mind while serving the law of sin in his flesh. That's in Rom. 7:25.
3 - For all that have committed a sin on earth. Oh yes because, there has never been a man upon earth who has done only good and has never sinned. (Eccles. 7:20) And that includes Jesus, mind you, who was a man upon earth for 33 years of his short life.
4 - Glorydaz, let nothing misguide you, honey, into thinking that there is justification anywhere else but in the obedience of God's Law. Repentance and obedience of the Law is the only way to set things right with God so that our sins, from scarlet red, become as white as snow. (Isa. 1:18,19) Jesus himself implied that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)
5 - What a disingenuous hope Gloridaz! There are only three dimensions as the Law is concern. a) Above the Law which only God is; b) Under the Law which only law-abiding citizens are; and c) Outlaws which are those who claim not to be under the Law aka the criminals. Justification is reserved only to those who are under the Law. Sorry to rain on your parade, if you expected to achieve justification by faith without obeying the Law. Such a faith is as good as dead; just like a body without its breath of life if you know what I mean. (James 2:26)
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Faith is the instrument of one's justification, not the cause. The faith is in the object, Our Lord, whose perfect active and passive obedience met all the requirements of the law. He is the cause of our justification. His righteousness is imputed by declaration of God the Father to those for whom He came to redeem—the believing ones.
AMR
AMR
Ben Masada
New member
1 - Good! That's important.
2 - They mean to replace the Theology of Judaism.
3 - It is my friend. In fact, the NT per se is not relevant to us but it has become through the works of Christianity throughout History. Jesus did warn us in his Sermon of the Mount when he blessed us by saying that many would revile us and persecute us, and say all manner of evil against us falsely for the sake of Jesus. (Mat. 5:11)
4 - Please, point to me what is not kosher about me.
5 - Please, show to me where I am misusing the Word. I thought we were not the ones vandalizing the NT but Christianity the Tanach. Now, I believe what you said above that we seem to be talking past each other.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
1 - Faith is just a concept until it becomes an act of faith in the obedience of God's Law. If that won't happen, faith will be as good as dead. (James 2:26)
2 - No one can meet the requirements of the Law but the sinner through repentance and obedience to the Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) Such an intervention would contradict the Prophets in Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20.
3 - Only the agent of Freewill is the cause of his or her justification. Since we have been granted with Freewill, justification has become up to us to want and to achieve. (Gen. 4:7)
4 - No one's righteousness can be imputed so that we achieve justification. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20) If we repent and obey we shall be justified; if not, sin shall lie at our door and justification shall be held from us till we reactivate our own Freewill to turn our potential into an act of faith. (Gen. 4:7)
1 - Faith is just a concept until it becomes an act of faith in the obedience of God's Law. If that won't happen, faith will be as good as dead. (James 2:26)
2 - No one can meet the requirements of the Law but the sinner through repentance and obedience to the Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) Such an intervention would contradict the Prophets in Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20.
3 - Only the agent of Freewill is the cause of his or her justification. Since we have been granted with Freewill, justification has become up to us to want and to achieve. (Gen. 4:7)
4 - No one's righteousness can be imputed so that we achieve justification. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20) If we repent and obey we shall be justified; if not, sin shall lie at our door and justification shall be held from us till we reactivate our own Freewill to turn our potential into an act of faith. (Gen. 4:7)
If God needs you to cut His heavenly grass, he'll find a way to get you on His yard, instantly. So don't run around telling what God can do and not do or he'll have you to scrub the saint's toilets for eternity.
All mankind failed to keep the law. They became unable. How do the unables save themselves from the lake of fire when all of mankind were sentenced to hell?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
How do you seriously use the New Testament as if it is valid and then discredit its validity?
If you think about the fact that the so-called "New Testament" was not considered scripture when some statements in there were made such as....
2 Timothy 3:16 KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
It should be obvious that the Word here refers specifically to the Torah, but includes the prophets, ect. This is why 80% of the "NT" is either quotes from the Word, or based on some part of it in understanding. Which is also why most Christians don't really see the Hebrew roots of a book that was first written in Hebrew in the first place.
Knowing that then, it should also be obvious that He who was the Word made flesh, was ALSO this Word.
And testament is a poor translation. A testament is a will denoting a beginning and an end. A covenant, particularly a blood covenant, is ongoing but can be added to down the road.
So in this, I agree with you. :thumb:
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Replace? Who? Not Jesus. He was there to reform Judaism, trying to bring it back to an interpretation and practice closer to Moses than Maccabees. If you read what is attributed to Him, He comes off as conservative, if a bit "end-is-nigh." We can forgive that last bit, since, well, an end actually was nigh.
Paul perhaps? If he were writing to Jews I might say yes, but he just... wasn't. Paul preaches to Goyim of adoption unto Father Abraham, and a practice of justice that pre-dates Moses. Essentially he would make them Israelites of the days prior to the exile.
Well, in most of his letters he does. I confess there are some things there that make me wonder if they weren't added later.
I think it a tragedy of Judaism that Akiba essentially ostracized every other tradition than Hillel-ite Pharisee-ism. Is there no room for any other view? Dogmatic interpretation doesn't seem very Jewish to me.
Oh, interesting take on that verse. I had never read it that way.
Forgive me, I couldn't help but choose that word for its ironic value. :chuckle: I am only commenting on your hermeneutics vis a vis the New Testament.
As nearly as I can tell, both groups use both groups of texts outside of what we might call the author's intent, rather freely.
But, then, are we entirely sure that isn't what was intended?
Jarrod
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
Totally wrong! According to Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20, no one can fulfill the Law on behalf of another.
Totally wrong! According to Jer. 31:30 and Ezek. 18:20, no one can fulfill the Law on behalf of another.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
Are you implying that Jesus was a liar when he said that to escape hell-fire one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law? Read again Luke 16:31 before you continue the silliness to contradict what he said.
Are you implying that Jesus was a liar when he said that to escape hell-fire one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law? Read again Luke 16:31 before you continue the silliness to contradict what he said.
Ben Masada
New member
Salvation by the Law or by Faith?
I have said here more than several times. Not all the NT is wasted. 20% of it is worthy learning something from and about Jesus. Now, the other 80% is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. What I use from the NT to enhance my views is from the 20% the Fathers of the Church missed to erase before closing the Canon.
I have said here more than several times. Not all the NT is wasted. 20% of it is worthy learning something from and about Jesus. Now, the other 80% is composed of anti-Jewish interpolations to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. What I use from the NT to enhance my views is from the 20% the Fathers of the Church missed to erase before closing the Canon.