Roy Moore, OJ Simpson, And why I don't believe you.

ClimateSanity

New member
They're lucky to have you as their spokesperson.

Obviously nothing would convince you. You've got 8 accusers and a retired police officer corroborating the mall story and how they wanted him to stay away from cheerleaders at the school.

Try not to get any in your eyes.



What part of no one is being charged with a crime don't you understand?

You just keep repeating that though.
He is not being charged, but you are demanding that people keep him out of office based on hearsay. Is that the kind of country you wish to live in?

He doesn't have to be charged to demand that we see evidence before we convict him in the court of public opinion. Do you want to see every candidate the GOP brings forward brought down on charges that are pure hearsay without any requirement of evidence?

Do you realize that's exactly what the Democrats will do if they are successful with this Salem witch trial?
 

ClimateSanity

New member
A retired police officer is a very compelling and reliable witness. She has no horse in the race. She is simply corroborating the events that some of these accusers have put forth.

Do you the officer is lying or making it up? Why would she do that? :think:
A police officer is above being corrupted? Seriously?

Why would she do it?

Money for one. The DNC and the GOP establishment have very powerful people with great influence and ability. Do you really think they have nothing to offer this officer for this statement? Do you really think she has no skeletons her closet that can't be used against her?
 

WizardofOz

New member
So you believe if 8 people corroborate a story it makes it true?

It makes it likely to be true.

You don't see a possible problem with that?

No. If a person is running for public office, he should be examined closely. I find it more likely that he is guilty of at least some of these accusations than these women all conspiring together to lie about him.

But, you want to know what really convinced me that Mr. Moore is full of it? His own words. His interview with Hannity convinced me that he is being less than forthcoming with the facts.

So you believe in the court of public opinion that guilty until proven innocent is acceptable? Is that good for democracy?

Keeping a possible sexual predator out of the senate is good for democracy. No one is finding him guilty of anything. This is simply knowledge informed voters will take with them to the polls.

It's not complicated. Accusations were made. Mr. Moore agreed to an interview with Sean Hannity in an attempt to defend himself. He came across as dishonest in the interview. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that at least some of the accusations are true.
 

ClimateSanity

New member
It makes it likely to be true? If there is no reason to think collusion is involved. 8 people who corroborate a story also makes the possibility of collusion highly likely.
 

WizardofOz

New member
He is not being charged, but you are demanding that people keep him out of office based on hearsay. Is that the kind of country you wish to live in?

Stop the dramatics. I am not demanding anything. The voters in Alabama will decide who will represent them in the senate. His name will still be on the ballot and if he wins, off to D.C. he'll go.

He doesn't have to be charged to demand that we see evidence before we convict him in the court of public opinion. Do you want to see every candidate the GOP brings forward brought down on charges that are pure hearsay without any requirement of evidence?

Information is evidence. The women's stories are evidence. The police officer's recollection is evidence. There is no thing as a court of public opinion. He's not on trial but people should take all information into consideration when heading to cast their vote.

Do you realize that's exactly what the Democrats will do if they are successful with this Salem witch trial?

:noid:
Democrats are not immune to accusations.

Why aren't you defending Al Franken with the same vigor? We both know why...

A police officer is above being corrupted? Seriously?
:doh:
Do you have evidence that this is the case or are you just making up anything you can out of desperation?

You'll insinuate that this officer is corrupt based on nothing at all but you doubt the corroborating stories of 9 people regarding the character of Roy Moore.

You don't see any problem there, do you?
 

WizardofOz

New member
Why would she do it?

Money for one. The DNC and the GOP establishment have very powerful people with great influence and ability. Do you really think they have nothing to offer this officer for this statement? Do you really think she has no skeletons her closet that can't be used against her?

Do you have any evidence that this officer has been paid to lie about Roy Moore?

Do you have any idea how backwards and hypocritical your position has become?

It makes it likely to be true? If there is no reason to think collusion is involved. 8 people who corroborate a story also makes the possibility of collusion highly likely.

Or...:idea:...it makes it more likely that there is truth to these women's stories.

You really think a vast conspiracy is more plausible than this is actual truth coming out.

Your position is quickly becoming untenable.

You're now saying it is more likely that this officer has been paid by democrats to make up lies about Roy Moore and that these 8 women are also involved in a conspiracy to discredit Moore than it is he actually engaged in some of these questionable behaviors when he was in his 30s.

Do you think we faked the moon landing too? Flat earther perhaps?
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Stop the dramatics. I am not demanding anything. The voters in Alabama will decide who will represent them in the senate. His name will still be on the ballot and if he wins, off to D.C. he'll go.



Information is evidence. The women's stories are evidence. The police officer's recollection is evidence. There is no thing as a court of public opinion. He's not on trial but people should take all information into consideration when heading to cast their vote.



:noid:
Democrats are not immune to accusations.

Why aren't you defending Al Franken with the same vigor? We both know why...


:doh:
Do you have evidence that this is the case or are you just making up anything you can out of desperation?

You'll insinuate that this officer is corrupt based on nothing at all but you doubt the corroborating stories of 9 people regarding the character of Roy Moore.

You don't see any problem there, do you?

He will probably win. He is not best for Alabama; makes us look like backward rednecks. Here is the funny part , the only people he might help are Alabama's millionaires. Does this seem like the Alabama majority?
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
It makes it likely to be true.



No. If a person is running for public office, he should be examined closely. I find it more likely that he is guilty of at least some of these accusations than these women all conspiring together to lie about him.

But, you want to know what really convinced me that Mr. Moore is full of it? His own words. His interview with Hannity convinced me that he is being less than forthcoming with the facts.



Keeping a possible sexual predator out of the senate is good for democracy. No one is finding him guilty of anything. This is simply knowledge informed voters will take with them to the polls.

It's not complicated. Accusations were made. Mr. Moore agreed to an interview with Sean Hannity in an attempt to defend himself. He came across as dishonest in the interview. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that at least some of the accusations are true.
You hear a knock at the door but you're not expecting anybody. It's two police officers looking for YOU. (let's assume the statute of limitations hasn't expired), They want to ask you some questions because three neighborhood girls make some accusations of varying degree. You will be charged and booked pending bail and a court appearance to make a plea. In the meantime, you are shocked and dismayed, confused and kind of freaking out because you're innocent The accusations are new to you and you go on live TV to state your case. Would you be relaxed and confident when the cameras start to roll? Would you possibly hesitate, stutter and stammer or seem unsure of yourself? Could you possibly not be clear and concise in your refute of these false accusations? It turns out that the girls didn't like your daughter and made up the stories, you're off the hook. But you lost your job and the rumors couldn't be stopped.

Let's say it's been 40 years and suddenly, one month before an election 9 women and a former cop (which means nothing) make accusations. Trump faced a similar situation, just before the election. We now know the DNC rigged the primaries on behalf of Hillary. They cheated in debates. They paid Russia for fake reports on Trump which paved the way for spying on a political rival and subsequently led to the bogus Russia collusion fantasy. They are doing anything they can to win at any cost. Anything. The list goes on and on and the libs don't care. Do you think it's beyond them to find a few willing liars? Anything. Anything to regain power and remove a duly elected President. You'll see eventually.
 

WizardofOz

New member
He will probably win. He is not best for Alabama; makes us look like backward rednecks. Here is the funny part , the only people he might help are Alabama's millionaires. Does this seem like the Alabama majority?

:chuckle: No, not at all. I wouldn't be shocked at all if he won. I don't think he should be forced out if he wins either, despite assumptions by a few here. If the voters want him to represent them, let him.
 

WizardofOz

New member
You hear a knock at the door but you're not expecting anybody. It's two police officers looking for YOU. (let's assume the statute of limitations hasn't expired), They want to ask you some questions because three neighborhood girls make some accusations of varying degree. You will be charged and booked pending bail and a court appearance to make a plea. In the meantime, you are shocked and dismayed, confused and kind of freaking out because you're innocent

:bang: No. One. Is. Going. To. Be. Arrested.

The accusations are new to you and you go on live TV to state your case. Would you be relaxed and confident when the cameras start to roll? Would you possibly hesitate, stutter and stammer or seem unsure of yourself? Could you possibly not be clear and concise in your refute of these false accusations?

Another person who didn't listen to the interview. Moore didn't hesitate, stutter or stammer. He made conflicting statements about his involvement with teenagers when he was in his 30s.

Credibility lost.

It turns out that the girls didn't like your daughter and made up the stories, you're off the hook. But you lost your job and the rumors couldn't be stopped.

You've got quite the imagination, don't you?

Let's say it's been 40 years and suddenly, one month before an election 9 women and a former cop (which means nothing) make accusations.

A cop coming forward does mean something. You don't find an officer of 30+ years to be a credible witness? Courts the world over do. It's just convenient for you not to at this time.

Trump faced a similar situation, just before the election. We now know the DNC rigged the primaries on behalf of Hillary. They cheated in debates. They paid Russia for fake reports on Trump which paved the way for spying on a political rival and subsequently led to the bogus Russia collusion fantasy. They are doing anything they can to win at any cost. Anything. The list goes on and on and the libs don't care. Do you think it's beyond them to find a few willing liars? Anything. Anything to regain power and remove a duly elected President. You'll see eventually.

I'll see what?

Do you have any evidence that any of these accusers lying at the behest of someone in the DNC or are you just grasping at straws?
 

drbrumley

Well-known member
He will probably win. He is not best for Alabama; makes us look like backward rednecks.

WUT?

Yes he may win....

Here is the funny part , the only people he might help are Alabama's millionaires. Does this seem like the Alabama majority?



I need some evidence for this that is beyond anything your previous elected senators have said or done.
 

Ktoyou

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
WUT?

Yes he may win....





I need some evidence for this that is beyond anything your previous elected senators have said or done.
Well, so do I, as it seems to me many folks in Alabama would do better with a Democrat.

I am a hard-line Republican, but I think Moore is too much a self promoting sex abuser. I do not believe what he says.
 

kmoney

New member
Hall of Fame
Two More Women Accuse Sen. Al Franken Of Inappropriate Touching


Two more women have told HuffPost that Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) touched their butts in separate incidents. These are the third and fourth such allegations against Franken in the past week. Leeann Tweeden, a radio host, wrote last week that Franken had kissed and groped her without her consent during a 2006 USO tour. On Monday, Lindsay Menz accused Franken of groping her at the Minnesota State Fair in 2010.

The two additional women, who said they were not familiar with each others’ stories, both spoke on condition of anonymity. But their stories, which describe events during Franken’s first campaign for the Senate, are remarkably similar — and both women have been telling them privately for years.



Might be time to resign...


https://www.vox.com/identities/2017...clinton-roy-moore-sexual-harassment-democrats

Democrats are facing an important test with Al Franken. They’ve failed it before.


But Democrats have a referendum on their hands too. Though the cases are different, the way Democrats respond to reports of unwanted touching and advances by Sen. Al Franken (D-MN) and Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), is just as important as how Republicans respond to Moore.

Democrats have already failed in this regard at least once, continuing to embrace and defend former president Bill Clinton even after an inappropriate relationship with an intern and reports of sexual assault. If they want to maintain the trust of their constituents and become a better, stronger party, they can’t make the same mistake this time.

Democrats are criticizing Franken — but some say it’s bad strategy for him to resign
Two women have now come forward to report inappropriate behavior by Sen. Franken. Last week, radio host Leeann Tweeden wrote that when she was performing with Al Franken on a USO tour in 2006, before he was a senator, Franken pressured her to rehearse an onstage kiss, aggressively put his tongue in her mouth, and later groped her while she was sleeping. A photograph shows Franken either groping or pretending to grope Tweeden while her eyes are shut. On Monday, CNN reported the story of Lindsay Menz, who says that Franken grabbed her butt during a photo op in 2010, when he was serving his first term in the senate.

Franken has apologized to Tweeden, but said he doesn’t remember their rehearsal the same way. In response to Menz’s account, he told CNN that he doesn’t remember the incident, but that “I feel badly that Ms. Menz came away from our interaction feeling disrespected.”

Meanwhile, BuzzFeed News reported this week that Rep. Conyers settled a complaint in 2015 by a woman who said she was fired for turning down his advances. Former staff members said in documents from the complaint that Conyers “repeatedly made sexual advances to female staff that included requests for sex acts,” BuzzFeed reported. Conyers has denied the allegations.

Progressive reactions to women’s accounts of Franken’s behavior have generally fallen into two camps. Some — including Michelle Goldberg at the New York Times and Minnesota State Auditor Rebecca Otto, who is running for governor in 2018 — have called for him to resign. Others, like Kate Harding at the Washington Post, have criticized Franken but argued that he shouldn’t resign, because the Republican Party does not demand the same of politicians accused of harassment.

If Democrats are forced to resign in the face of such allegations and Republicans aren’t, Harding writes, “the legislative branch will remain chockablock with old, white Republican men who regard women chiefly as sex objects and unpaid housekeepers, and we’ll show them how staunchly Democrats oppose their misogynistic attitudes by handing them more power.”

It’s worth noting that few if any Democratic officials have come forward to defend the practice of groping women. We have not seen, for instance, a Democratic equivalent of the Alabama state auditor who brushed aside the allegations against Roy Moore with a bizarre Biblical reference: “Take Joseph and Mary. Mary was a teenager and Joseph was an adult carpenter. They became parents of Jesus.”

Still, Democrats face a test. And they’ve already failed once.

In 1998, Democrats mixed up infidelity with abuse of power, and gave Clinton an undeserved pass
Reports of harassment and assault by Harvey Weinstein and other powerful men have prompted a reevaluation of several other powerful figures who should have been evaluated harshly in the first place. Prominent among these is Bill Clinton, who has been accused of sexual harassment and assault by multiple women, including Juanita Broaddrick, who says Clinton raped her in 1978. Clinton also admitted in 1998 to an affair with Monica Lewinsky. Their relationship was consensual, but she was a White House intern and he was president of the United States — Clinton abused his power and committed, as Vox’s Dylan Matthews put it, “textbook sexual harassment of a subordinate of a kind that would (or perhaps more accurately, should) get many CEOs fired from their companies.”

A boss having sexual contact with an intern puts her at a steep disadvantage — what if she wants to break off the affair? It also harms everyone else in the workplace — can the boss possibly be fair to the other interns if he’s having sex with one of them? How can he evaluate, support, or promote any of his employees fairly if he’s sizing them up as potential sexual partners? These questions become even more pressing when the boss is the commander-in-chief.

And yet Democrats, by and large, did not ask these questions when Clinton’s affair with Lewinsky came to light — or until very recently. Vox’s Matt Yglesias writes that in 1998, “my version of a sophisticated high schooler’s take on the matter was that the American media should get over its bourgeois morality hang-ups and be more like the French, where François Mitterrand’s wife and his longtime mistress grieved together at his funeral.” This was a common take at the time, among adults as well as teenagers. As Yglesias notes, the focus should have been on Clinton’s abuse of his power over Lewinsky, not his infidelity. But Democrats in Congress and voters alike decided to treat Clinton like a bad husband answerable to his wife, not a failed leader answerable to the American people.


Democrats in Congress were ready to force Clinton to resign over his relationship with Lewinsky, said William Chafe, a professor emeritus of history at Duke and the author of Bill and Hillary: The Politics of the Personal. But when Hillary Clinton stayed married to Bill and remained supportive of him, Chafe explained, “the people in the country said, if she’s willing to stand with him, then we will too.” Democratic lawmakers stood down, and Clinton eventually finished out his term.

His public image suffered for a while after his impeachment — Al Gore’s presidential campaign kept Clinton away from some key swing states for fear that voters would punish Gore for Clinton’s misdeeds. But it didn’t last long — Clinton spoke at the Democratic National Convention in 2004 and, of course, was active in his wife’s 2008 and 2016 presidential campaigns. One of the strangest moments I witnessed in 2016 was Chelsea Clinton’s appearance with both of her parents in Hudson, New Hampshire; it was impossible to watch the three of them together without being reminded of the pain Bill Clinton had caused his family and other women. A year and a half later, there he was at the National Book Awards, getting a standing ovation.

It’s become commonplace to speak of the current “moment” on sexual harassment as though before women began speaking out about Harvey Weinstein, no one knew it was wrong for men to kiss, touch, pressure, or intimidate unwilling women. But, of course, that’s not true. Tarana Burke started the Me Too campaign a decade ago. When Anita Hill testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 1991 that Clarence Thomas had talked to her about porn and pubic hair on a Coke can, she knew those actions were wrong. (At Rewire, Imani Gandy argues that Joe Biden’s recent apology to Anita Hill rings hollow given his role as chair of the judiciary committee at the time.) And many people saw Clinton’s behavior with Lewinsky, and reports by Broaddrick and others, for the serious issues that they were. Trouble is, the rest of America wasn’t listening.

Democrats can’t make the same mistake twice
America is listening now. And while Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) made headlines last week when she said Clinton should have resigned the presidency, no Democrat that prominent has said that Franken should step down. Gillibrand’s comment was certainly controversial, but it’s easier to criticize a 71-year-old former president whose career — even as a supporter of his wife’s campaigns — is over than it is to pass judgment on a sitting senator whose future still matters for his party.

 

WizardofOz

New member
Is it strange that [MENTION=17591]ClimateSanity[/MENTION] [MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] et al are not desperate to defend Franken like they are Moore?

Probably not ;)
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Another person who didn't listen to the interview. Moore didn't hesitate, stutter or stammer. He made conflicting statements about his involvement with teenagers when he was in his 30s.
Key word, teenagers. I think Moore dated 17,18 or 19 year olds when he was in his "30s", above age of consent. Early 30s I hope. He dated according to Christian standards he says and asked parental permission. Unsavory perhaps but not predatory or deviant. I'm not so sure about this 14 year old's credibility.
 
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