Robert's Gospel According to the Apostle Paul

[glorydaz]

His work in me is to desire to voluntarily TAKE UP my cross as the WANTS to kill me...I bare that cross daily not to save myself but well because I am already saved and NOW hated...the world would not want to crucify me if I wasnt saved...you know more like Him...and telling others “you should too” “ya gotta try this” etc...and establishing the gospel and its law into all nations...


SO AGAIN AND AGAIN...works NOT to be saved but BECAUSE I AM SAVED...

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​

Always turning back to the flesh and law. Christ has become of no effect for you as you keep running back to the law. Cross bearer = worker. You can't even begin to accomplish what Christ did. His desire is to do HIS work through you. Try that...it's called walking by faith. Trust.

 

[Jacob]

Ex? That is no surprise...jews were to be jealous of us...and yet you thinking they had their own way preferred them...replacing the very wall He tore down seperating jew and goyim

I do not know what you are saying. When you see a Jew you should glorify God. We are His Chosen People. It is different from how Gentiles ought to glorify God so that Jews would come back to Him. What is no surprise to you?

 

[Jacob]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Is Caught Up the same as Raptured?

The word rapture is not here.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB - 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of [the] archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

from verse 17 we see a Greek word.

will be caught up

PHRASE
g726

ἁρπάζω
harpazō

 

[clefty]

2 Corinthians 5:16-17
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.​

How do we live henceforth but unto Him...like our former selves when we lived for ourselves? Or is this New Life different somehow? Why?

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

yup new creatures do new things not their former old things...what new things do new creatures do?

Always turning back to the flesh and law.

turning FROM the flesh and the law of death to Him His Law unto life...

Christ has become of no effect for you as you keep running back to the law.

cuz He asked me to “if you love me”...and well after what He did I do duh...

Cross bearer = worker.

yup but not towards salvation...because the world HATES me now cuz I am saved...

You can't even begin to accomplish what Christ did.

not reworking His works...He said we would do even greater things than He...different things new things works He will bring His reward for...

His desire is to do HIS work through you.

duh...I am HIS TO USE...to do works that manifest the Father...His will be done

Try that...it's called walking by faith. Trust.

yup...and how different is this walk than the world or your former self? Trust in Him...faith in Him...more like Him...His way...

 

[clefty]

There is one God, the God of the Jews, who had a Son.

jews dont believe their god had a son...that would make them christian...

No. We have our Messiah. Yeshua.

nope you are no longer jewish but a messianic jew but since you were religiously jewish you were not genetically jewish you now annulled your jewish religion with that belief the messiah has come already...

No.

Okay. Did.

nope.

Okay. Accept the Messiah. What is the name of the God of the Muslims?

Allah had no son

The God of the Jews is YHVH

yes and had no son

the God of Christians.

but had a Son...

Correct.

so now that makes Him different than the god of the jew...

Not necessary but potentially a good point.

?

Correct.
No. I don't hate the gospel at all.

because you are not a real jew...but messianic...go to another synagogue and declare you love for the messiah already come...you are exactly the type of goyim the early synagogues did not want crowding in...so changes were made to seperate you from true jews that did not love the messiah that already came...

 

[tetelestai]

Since the Lord has not returned to place His feet on the mount of Olives per Zechariah 14:4 (with Acts 1:11), Zechariah 14 is yet future.

It's not literal, just like the "living waters" was not literal.

It's metaphoric language found elsewhere in the OT.

Example:

(Micah 1:3-4) For, behold, the Lord cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Notice the following:

1) God comes down to earth

2) God walks on top of mountains

3) The mountains melt

4) The valley split

Does all this sound familiar? Sounds a lot like Zech 14 to me.

So what really happened in Micah 1:3-4?

Answer: The Assyrians invaded the Northern Nation of Israel, and removed the 10 tribes from their land.

God didn't come down out of heaven, and walk across mountains. There was no melting of mountains, or valleys splitting.

Same thing with Zech 14. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman army. God didn't come down from Heaven and stand on a mountain, and no mountains split in half.

 

[Dartman]

oh my ok...lost you at Jesus leaves heaven permanently...

Heaven is going to be empty. A little more than 1,000 years after Jesus leaves, God Himself is coming to dwell on the earth, in the Holy City New Jerusalem.

and something about immortality...and coming to conquer...sounds dispenSENSATIONAL...

..... so?

And oh...we were never immortal not even created that way but dependent on the tree of Life...which we lost access to...had we been immortal being banned from the garden would be no big thing...ya dig?

Did you think I said we WERE immortal??

A desire to be immortal seduced them to begin with...”you will not die”

That's one of the most mainstream Christian doctrines today ..... you don't REALLY die. It came first from Satan. It's still a lie.

The Scriptures, in stark contrast, teach Dead = NOT live.

And useful for a church to collect monies for those poor immortals locked in purgatory...

Well, useful for the BIGGEST Christian Church anyway.

We will also not become immortal but PUT ON immortality like a coat...

"We shall be CHANGED";

1 Cor 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Cor 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

... is why in the New Earth the tree of life is available again for the healing of ALL NATIONS...

Nope. Go back and re-read that. The tree of life WAS (PAST TENSE) for the healing of the nations. It's talking about during the 1,000 year reign of Jesus.

Yup that New Jerusalem with His throne FINALLY comes down...on earth as it is in heaven...crushing any man made construct in its path...

Agreed!

Oh my...you got all that from ‘There remains therefore a Sabbatismos for the people of Yah”?

Nope. We are to compare ALL Scripture on ANY topic, BEFORE we come to any conclusions.

Sabbath was given to WHOSOEVER left egypt with them...the only commandment to list strangers as included in its keeping...the IRONY

The Lord of the Sabbath made it quite clear that Sabbath was given to MAN not just jews...

No he didn't say "not just Jews". His point was the Sabbath was made a commandment precisely to give man rest, and NOT to keep man from eating, rescuing his sheep, or oxen, or healing the sick.

I guess no murder no stealing no coveting no LYING etc was just given to Isreal during the Mosiac Law too...lol

Incorrect. All of those commandments are repeated in the New Covenant/Testament/Law.

The entire Mosaic Law was completed, as in fulfilled, and finished, on the cross. Jesus "took it out of the way", he "broke down the middle wall of partition."

Jesus' instructions regarding the Sabbath and the destruction of the temple was mercy, inspite of Jewish belligerence .... it was not a repeat of the Sabbath commandment, which Jehovah/YHVH had taught to Israel at Sinai.

By contrast, the apostles, and the holy spirit, concluded that the ONLY aspects of the Mosaic Law that were to be kept did NOT include the Sabbath, nor did it include the dietary laws, or the priesthood, or Capital punishment, or ANY kind of corporeal punishment to be administered by the Church.

 

[clefty]

I do not know what you are saying. When you see a Jew you should glorify God.

oh I do...I glorify He allowed me to graft in where they were rejected...

We are His Chosen People.

sure He chose you but you rejected Him...killed Him actually

It is different from how Gentiles ought to glorify God so that Jews would come back to Him.

well through Him there is no other way...so Paul was hoping jealousy would do it since that is what they do....

What is no surprise to you?

that you went from replacing the wall He tore down between jew and gentile...to joining them...you chose them...good luck getting them to choose you your style of messianic jewishness....

 

[tetelestai]

I am an ex-Dispensationalist. rapture just refers to being caught up. There is no seven year tribulation.

Paul said that when a believer dies, the believer is present with the Lord.

Prior to 70AD, believers had to go to Paradise. Post 70AD, believer immediately go to Heaven. That's what Paul was teaching in 1 Thess 4.

That is why Paul said "we who are alive and remain". Paul said this before 70AD. Meaning, believers who died after 70AD were "caught up" to Heaven with the believers who are already there.

No one goes to Paradise anymore.

 

[Jacob]

The early church was entirely Jewish.

jews dont believe their god had a son...that would make them christian...

Jews accept the Torah. It was given to us. In it we find God's name.

nope you are no longer jewish but a messianic jew but since you were religiously jewish you were not genetically jewish you now annulled your jewish religion with that belief the messiah has come already...

I am not Messianic because I disagree with Messianic doctrine. No. A religious Jew or a Jew who lives his life religiously might be different. It depends on who is doing the observing, and trying to understand the Jew. Yes, of course Messiah has come. I still keep God's commands, His commandments.

nope.

You are correct already.

Allah had no son

I believe that. If Allah is a god's name.

yes and had no son

Incorrect. Of course He had a Son. Jesus. Yeshua. The only begotten Son of God.

but had a Son...

Yes.

so now that makes Him different than the god of the jew...

Is your difference between Jew and Gentile Jew and Greek or Jew and Christian? If it is Jew and Christian you potentially do not accept Jews who believe in Jesus or Yeshua as the Messiah.

?

Jews and Israel. There is a difference between an Israelite and a Jew, but same thing.

because you are not a real jew...but messianic...go to another synagogue and declare you love for the messiah already come...you are exactly the type of goyim the early synagogues did not want crowding in...so changes were made to seperate you from true jews that did not love the messiah that already came...

I have been in a synagogue. I see nothing wrong. The problem I have had is a website that I study the Torah from that said we don't even talk about Jesus. I understand no Christmas. I don't celebrate Christmas. But no Jesus I don't understand.

 

[Dartman]

It's not literal, just like the "living waters" was not literal.

The living waters are literal.

Ezek 47:8-11 Then said he unto me, These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed.
9 And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.
10 And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.
11 But the miry places thereof and the marishes thereof shall not be healed; they shall be given to salt.


The "Roman army" doesn't even begin to fulfill Zech 14!!
The "Roman army" is NOT "All Nations". What we see TODAY, is ALL NATIONS prepared to go to war in the Middle East. Russia has already come down .... Just like the Bible foretold. The US is up to it's eyebrows in the Middle East. (Given Obama's attitude toward Israel, you should be able to imagine the position any FUTURE replacement for Trump might take!)
The Romans didn't have their flesh melt as a plague.
The Romans WON, and Israel was scattered to every nation on the planet.
By contrast, the armies of "all nations" are going to be utterly defeated, and ISRAEL WILL BE RESCUED!

Your reading skills are ....... lacking.

 

[tetelestai]

Heaven is going to be empty. A little more than 1,000 years after Jesus leaves, God Himself is coming to dwell on the earth, in the Holy City New Jerusalem.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The kingdom exists right now, and it's not of this world.

Christ Jesus isn't coming back to sit on a man made throne in the Middle East to oversee animal sacrifices for sin atonement.

The kingdom is now!

(Luke 17:21) You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."

 

[Jacob]

oh I do...I glorify He allowed me to graft in where they were rejected...

Interesting. Maybe English is not your first language. You said you glorify He allowed you...

The following may help you.

Romans 11:23 NASB - 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

sure He chose you but you rejected Him...killed Him actually

No. There is a Christian song that says it was my sin that put or place Him there. We are all responsible. But we are not responsible for what we did not or have not done.

well through Him there is no other way...so Paul was hoping jealousy would do it since that is what they do....

No. It is not meant in a negative sense.

that you went from replacing the wall He tore down between jew and gentile...to joining them...you chose them...good luck getting them to choose you your style of messianic jewishness....

Interesting. Well thank you for your approval or well wishing. I do feel that I live a Torah observant lifestyle.

 

[Jacob]

Paul said that when a believer dies, the believer is present with the Lord.

Prior to 70AD, believers had to go to Paradise. Post 70AD, believer immediately go to Heaven. That's what Paul was teaching in 1 Thess 4.

That is why Paul said "we who are alive and remain". Paul said this before 70AD. Meaning, believers who died after 70AD were "caught up" to Heaven with the believers who are already there.

No one goes to Paradise anymore.

Interesting. Well, no arguing with you. Still I think Paul was talking about something that was already a present reality, before the destruction of the temple. And yet, what then of the resurrection and this being caught up?

 

[tetelestai]

The living waters are literal.

Nope.

Jesus made it crystal clear that the Living Water was the Holy Spirit.

The "Roman army" doesn't even begin to fulfill Zech 14!!
The "Roman army" is NOT "All Nations".

The Roman army of 70AD consisted of men from many nations:

"Early in this year Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father to complete the subjugation of Judaea, and who had gained distinction as a soldier while both were still subjects, began to rise in power and reputation, as armies and provinces emulated each other in their attachment to him. The young man himself, anxious to be thought superior to his station, was ever displaying his gracefulness and his energy in war. By his courtesy and affability he called forth a willing obedience, and he often mixed with the common soldiers, while working or marching, without impairing his dignity as general. He found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th, all old troops of Vespasian's. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied by twenty cohorts of allied troops and eight squadrons of cavalry, by the two kings Agrippa and Sohemus, by the auxiliary forces of king Antiochus, by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbors…" —Tacitus The History New Ed edition Book 5.1 Editor: Moses Hadas, Translators: Alfred Church, William Brodribb (Modern Library; New York, 2003)"

 

[tetelestai]

What we see TODAY, is ALL NATIONS prepared to go to war in the Middle East. Russia has already come down .... Just like the Bible foretold. The US is up to it's eyebrows in the Middle East. (Given Obama's attitude toward Israel, you should be able to imagine the position any FUTURE replacement for Trump might take!)

Dispensationalists like yourself have been saying this same rhetoric for decades.

The Romans didn't have their flesh melt as a plague.
The Romans WON, and Israel was scattered to every nation on the planet.
By contrast, the armies of "all nations" are going to be utterly defeated, and ISRAEL WILL BE RESCUED!

Israel was rescued. The believing Jews (The Israel of God) fled to the hills, just like Jesus told them to do.

Your reading skills are ....... lacking.

No, it's just you being blinded by Dispensationalsim.

 

[tetelestai]

I do feel that I live a Torah observant lifestyle.

Completely impossible without the Levitical Priesthood and temple.

Not to mention the fact that there hasn't been a perfect red heifer since 70AD.

 

[Jacob]

Completely impossible without the Levitical Priesthood and temple.

No. You can live a Torah Observant Lifestyle as much as is possible without the temple and call it Torah Observant. There are 613 Mitzvot.

 

[tetelestai]

No. You can live a Torah Observant Lifestyle as much as is possible without the temple and call it Torah Observant. There are 613 Mitzvot.

(Numbers 19:2) This is a requirement of the law that the Lord has commanded: Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke.

How do you observe the above commandment?

 

[Jacob]

(Numbers 19:2) This is a requirement of the law that the Lord has commanded: Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke.

How do you observe the above commandment?

I know about the red heifer and don't have one of my own. Great question! Have you researched about it? I guess there have been eligible red heifers in recent times.