REPORT: Should Gays Adopt? - by Bob Enyart

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
Greer, for the record, putting someone on "ignore" is a genuine function of this board. [/b]."

First you are amused with my message as "the most enjoyable as you've read in a long time, thank you!", but then again it is 'low level'.
Talk about a contradiction.

I've often wondered why homosexuals often point to most animal species as having homosexual behavior, yet when someone points out other disgusting animal behavior you find it a 'low level', childish, 'five year old' mentality and 'the most entertaining I've read in a long time". Answer me that, while you continue to tag line your responses in this and other forums, Wendell and Cass Live! I'm so glad I can associate my behavior with them, I want the world to see? I have behavior like penguins!"

There was a question in there. In case you missed it:
Why do homosexuals seek to justify their homosexual behavior as a natural thing, by pointing to other animal species that have homosexual behavior, yet get offended when animal behaviors are pointed out to be perverted and disgusting?

Do you have an answer for that?

AND:
Talk about not following a thread, you haven't responded to any Biblical point I've made recently.

BTW, I really don't care if you read them or not.
"An offended homosexual", I would have thought that to be a contradictory term. I think I'll use that as my tag line from now on.

Oh and PS: Please use my full log in, it is an acronym not a name. Be like me saying, 'ill, .....blah blah blah'

 

[Prisca]

Symbolism of the Tree

Symbolism of the Tree

Projill, you said (in reference to Adam and Eve), “Yet their mom and dad got into pretty big trouble for eating a piece of fruit. God needs to fix his priorities.”

You say you have read through the Bible a couple of times (I have no reason to doubt you) however, your lack of understanding indicates to me that perhaps this was something you did as a child rather than as the adult, English major you are today. If you don’t mind my asking, when did you read it?

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil symbolizes the law. At that time, there was only one law, “You shall not eat of it.” But they broke the one and only law that was given to them. It was basically a “door” leading away from a relationship with God. God is not the kind to lock us in a room with no way of escape. Fortunately, He also provided a door to get back to Him, if one so chooses. That door was provided by the sacrifice of Jesus.

Gen. 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’: Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, and you shall eat the herb of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”

Gal. 3:13-14 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Notice how these two events are tied together by the symbolism of the tree. It’s all about making a choice to live with God and have a relationship with Him or to live without Him. It is quite uncanny how these “primitive” writers were able to express such profound ideas through the use of these symbols. This idea of making a choice is reiterated in the following verse:

Deut. 30:19 “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live.”

Keep in mind, “life” means to be alive to God in the sense that you have chosen to be with Him. “Death” is the separation from God for those who choose not to be with Him. You commented, rather facetiously, that God needed to fix His priorities, but what could be more important than choosing to love and respect the one who gave you life?

 

[Prisca]

Projill

Projill

While we are on the topic of symbolism, let me run another one past you. This one comes in the form of what I would call a “prophetic event.” When I borrowed a Bible in order to read it for the first time, this event was a huge stumbling block for me. (I was still an atheist at the time) Ultimately, this very “prophetic event” led me to buy my own Bible to read it through a second time, this time with a very different understanding.

You recall the story of Isaac and Abraham? Where God commands that Abraham take Isaac to a certain mountain to sacrifice him? Well that mountain turns out to be the very same mountain where Solomon built the Temple and where Jesus was sacrificed. Keep the symbolism in mind as you read through it again:

Gen. 22:1-14 Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” So Abraham rose early in the morning and saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he split the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you.” So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering.” So the two of them went together. Then they came to the place of which God had told him. And Abraham built an altar there and placed the wood in order; and he bound Isaac his son and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. And Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.” And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” Then Abraham lifted his eyes and looked, and there behind him was a ram caught in a thicket by its horns. So Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up for a burnt offering instead of his son. And Abraham called the name of the place, the-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of The LORD it shall be provided.”

Think about it, 2000 years later, Jesus Christ was sacrificed on this same mountain. God called Jesus His “beloved Son.” Jesus carried the cross on His back. His head was entangled in thorns. He was the sacrificial “ram” provided by God to redeem us from the curse of the law. To top it all off, God provides us with the testimony of three eyewitnesses, Matthew, Mark, and John.

Deut. 19:15 “One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.

It is a stretch of the imagination to think that this all happened by coincidence. God is a brilliant author who weaves symbols into the fabric of history so that those who seek Him out can find Him.

 

[Flipper]

Becky,

You seem to be making a big assumption here, in that you appear to be presenting both incidents in the bible as historical fact.

I have no doubt that you are aware that authors are prone to use symbolism in fictional tales, often to make an illustrative point of some kind.

 

[wcgreer]

Becky,

Becky,

Originally posted by Becky
It is a stretch of the imagination to think that this all happened by coincidence. God is a brilliant author who weaves symbols into the fabric of history so that those who seek Him out can find Him.

Have you studied any of the numberology comparisions of the Bible? It is full of them too, by coincidence some would say.
God is 1, but also the trinity, 3
Man is 6, 666 is man representing himself to be a god (3),
And so on, there is someone who went through the whole bible adding number reprensentations of each word, it was fascinating.

(BTW, I'm not talking about that 'Bible Code' business.)

 

[Zakath]

Re: Projill

Re: Projill

Becky,

Originally posted by Becky
...Think about it, 2000 years later, Jesus Christ was sacrificed on this same mountain.

Oh really? Where is your support for such a claim?

Linking the alleged site of the two events is the work of medieval writers, not any historical or geographical fact.
The site of the execution is named Golgotha in Matthew, Mark and Luke's gospels and "the skull" (greek-kranios) in Luke's. According to my sources, it has never been conclusively located. Several sites around Jerusalem, each with their own supporting evidences, compete for the claim to be the location. All that is probably certain from the narratives is that it was likely outside the walls of Jerusalem in the first century CE since the Jews would have considered executions of criminals within the city limits as a desecration.

God called Jesus His “beloved Son.” Jesus carried the cross on His back. His head was entangled in thorns.

This may have less to do with the actual events and more to do with the gospel writers and later editors searching for metaphors and symbols to enhance the church's claim to the messiaship of Jesus of Nazareth.

He was the sacrificial “ram” provided by God to redeem us from the curse of the law.

Not true. I think someone is reaching pretty far for that one. Jesus is never referred to in the Bible as a "ram" (an adult male sheep). He is symbolically referred to as the "lamb of God" or the "lamb that was slain".

To top it all off, God provides us with the testimony of three eyewitnesses, Matthew, Mark, and John.

If you are referring to the Mark who authored the gospel, he was not likely, according to many historians and church fathers (including Papias and Augustine), an eye witness of the crucifixion. He was believed to have been a disciple of Peter (according to Irenæus and Tertullian), who wrote down Peter's tales and preaching late in Peter's life when he was preaching in Rome or after his death. Irenæus asserted that the text was written after the death of Peter while Origen and others claim that Peter "approved" it prior to his death.

It is a stretch of the imagination to think that this all happened by coincidence.

For many of us it's an even larger stretch to think that it happened as written at all...

 

[wcgreer]

Re: Re: Projill

Re: Re: Projill

Originally posted by Zakath
(Mark) wrote down Peter's tales and preaching late in Peter's life when he was preaching in Rome or after his death. Irenæus asserted that the text was written after the death of Peter while Origen and others claim that Peter "approved" it prior to his death.
For many of us it's an even larger stretch to think that it happened as written at all...

Some of those speculations are the biggest reaches of all.

Some believe that the gospel of Mark was written after 70 a.d.
Reason? 13:2 foretells of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. and since Jesus couldn't have made such a prediction or prophesy, it had to have been written after that date. he could not have foretold this Jerusalem thing, but look at what Jesus says the end times will be like? Huh?
Hogwash. Jesus most certainly could have made such a prophesy. The chapter is entirely of the second coming, an entire book of prophesy. That is one such ridiculous reasoning I've read recently.

When you look at the reasons for their arguments, some don't even make sense.
I don't know specifically those references you made, but others that I have read make such leaps and assumptions, they aren't even realistic.

Originally posted by Zakath
For many of us it's an even larger stretch to think that it happened as written at all...

Are you an atheist too?

 

[Prisca]

Flipper

Flipper

You said, “You seem to be making a big assumption here, in that you appear to be presenting both incidents in the bible as historical fact.”

Can I say for sure that these incidents are historical fact? Perhaps not, but because the Bible has proven itself to be accurate on many other historical details, I am able to trust it as a reliable source of information.

You said, “I have no doubt that you are aware that authors are prone to use symbolism in fictional tales, often to make an illustrative point of some kind.”

Absolutely! I, like projill, was an English major. Studying symbolism and how to make use of it was a large part of my educational experience. But God, who is not the author of fiction, has used historical events, laws, feasts, etc. as symbols of Christ and His sacrifice.

The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by more than forty different authors. How did these kings, herdsmen, fishermen, physicians, rabbis, and tax collectors, put it all together?

Let’s say that the story of Abraham and Isaac turns out to be fictional. Does this present a problem? No. It was still written at least 1500 years before Christ was sacrificed. The Greek version of the OT, the Septuagint, was translated in around 250 B.C. Because there is overwhelming evidence that Jesus was sacrificed in the way the Gospels describe, the symbolism still stands, fictional or not.

 

[PastorDon]

Perhaps not, but because the Bible has proven itself to be accurate on many other historical details, I am able to trust it as a reliable source of information.

But has it proven itself true on any supernatural detail?

The Bible was written over a period of 1500 years by more than forty different authors. How did these kings, herdsmen, fishermen, physicians, rabbis, and tax collectors, put it all together?

Well, they didn't Becky. It was put together long after it was written.

 

[Prisca]

Wcgreer

Wcgreer

You said, “Have you studied any of the numerology comparisons of the Bible?”

A little bit. I’m sure they go deeper than any of us could imagine. Thirteen, I understand, is considered the number of rebellion. I suppose most parents of a 13 year old can attest to that fact! Did you know that this number appears 13 times in the Bible? I wonder how that happened?

I was also fascinated to find that the atomic number for carbon, the main mineral component of the human body, is 6, again the number of man. Coincidence or symbolism?

 

[PastorDon]

Re: Wcgreer

Re: Wcgreer

Originally posted by Becky


A little bit. I’m sure they go deeper than any of us could imagine. Thirteen, I understand, is considered the number of rebellion.

I wonder why that is? None of the appearances of the number 13 in the Bible seem to be associated with rebellion.

I suppose most parents of a 13 year old can attest to that fact! Did you know that this number appears 13 times in the Bible? I wonder how that happened?

Actually it appears 15 times.

I was also fascinated to find that the atomic number for carbon, the main mineral component of the human body, is 6, again the number of man. Coincidence or symbolism?

Does that mean that God is made of Nitrogen? It's number 7. Incidentally, carbon is the main component of all living things, not just humans. In fact it's pretty abundant all throughout nature.

 

[Prisca]

PastorDon

PastorDon

You said, “But has it proven itself true on any supernatural detail?”

The existence of the universe is proof of something supernatural occurring. The Bible claims that God created it while non-creation scientists call it a “singularity.” The Bible claims there was a world-wide flood that wiped out nearly all the land animals. Many non-creation scientists believe there were several mass extinction events that wiped out nearly all the land animals. These are merely different ways of explaining the same events. No one was there to see it, so each must accept his explanation by faith.

What do you make of the following?

A papyrus dating from the end of the Old Kingdom was found in the early 19th century in Egypt. It seems to be an eyewitness account of the events preceding the dissolution of the Old Kingdom. Its author, an Egyptian named Ipuwer, writes:

Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
*The river is blood.
*That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
*Trees are destroyed.
*No fruit or herbs are found...
*Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
*Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
*The land is not light [dark].
http://www.starways.net/lisa/essays/exodus.html#note6

Sounds a lot like the plagues of Egypt as described in the Bible to me. Supernatural? Fiction? Coincidence? Each of us can examine the evidence and decide for ourselves. Whatever we decide to believe, there is a true answer, regardless of what we, as individuals, believe.

You said, “Well, they didn't Becky. It was put together long after it was written.”

Want to give us your version of how it all came together?

 

[Prisca]

PastorDon

PastorDon

You said, “I wonder why that is? None of the appearances of the number 13 in the Bible seem to be associated with rebellion.”

I admit, I didn't know all the reasons for this, but you compelled me to look into it. If you’re interested, you can check it out for yourself at http://philologos.org/bpr/files/n018.htm.

You said (concerning the number of times “13” appears in the Bible), “Actually it appears 15 times.”

You are correct if you searched an Old King James version. On two different occasions, in the KJV, the number 22,273 is translated as “twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.” But that isn't exactly the number thirteen, is it. In the NKJV, the same number is translated “twenty-two thousand two hundred and seventy-three.” I’ll back away from this one since I’m not that familiar with ancient number systems. For now I’ll just have to chalk this bit of information up to mere coincidence.

You said, “Incidentally, carbon is the main component of all living things, not just humans. In fact it's pretty abundant all throughout nature.”

Yep, that’s true:

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” (Gen. 2:7)

I still think it is an interesting fact. You go ahead and think whatever you like.

 

[Prisca]

Zakath

Zakath

You said, “Linking the alleged site of the two events is the work of medieval writers, not any historical or geographical fact.”

Gen. 22:2, 14 Then He said, “Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you. 14) And Abraham called the name of the place, the-LORD-Will-Provide; as it is said to this day, “In the Mount of The LORD it shall be provided.””

2Chr. 3:1 Now Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem on Mount Moriah, where the LORD had appeared to his father David, at the place that David had prepared on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Doesn’t sound like the work of medieval writers to me, but maybe you can explain what you mean.

You said, “The site of the execution is named Golgotha in Matthew, Mark and Luke's gospels and "the skull" (greek-kranios) in Luke's. According to my sources, it has never been conclusively located.”

I think this is a pretty good candidate:

You said, “All that is probably certain from the narratives is that it was likely outside the walls of Jerusalem in the first century CE since the Jews would have considered executions of criminals within the city limits as a desecration.”

I have no argument with you here. If you view a topographical map of Mt. Moriah, you will see that Golgotha is actually the summit of the mountain at an elevation of 777 meters.

The topographic map shows that Mount Moriah is not a single peak, but an elongated ridge which commences to rise at its Southern end at the junction of the Kidron and Hinnom Valleys, at the original City of David, (elevation approximately 600 meters). The ridge then climbs in elevation to a maximum of 777 meters just Northeast of the present Damascus Gate of the Old City. The Temple Mount, prominent in most photos of Jerusalem occupies an area of about 45 acres. However the elevation of the bedrock outcropping on the Temple Mount within the Dome of the Rock Moslem shrine is only 741 meters. http://www.templemount.org/moriah2.html

I gotta go for now. It's really getting late! I'll try to get back to you soon.

 

[Zakath]

Becky,

I'm interested in carrying on the discussion, but will have to put things on hold for a couple of days.

Sorry about that.

NOTE:
I'll be away until Monday, crusin' the Chesapeake crewing the final voyage of the Wake Up call. Give us a call on the marine band if you're in the area...

'Till Monday, then...

"Come Monday, it'll be alright.
Come Monday, I'll be holdin' you tight.
I spent four lonely days in a brown LA haze; and I just want you back by my side..."
J.B. - Chief musician of COBO (Church of Buffet, Orthodox)
__________________

 

[Prisca]

No problem Zak. I'm going to be pretty busy as well!

 

[Prisca]

PastorDon

PastorDon

You said, “Does that mean that God is made of Nitrogen? It's number 7.”

Somehow I let this get by me. The number 7 is not the number of God. It’s the number of completion. Hey, did you notice that the summit of Mount Moriah, where Jesus was crucified, happens to have an elevation of 777 meters? Oh yeah, they didn’t use meters back then. Oh well, it’s still interesting…

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by firechyld

If you oppose abortion, and think it should be outlawed completely, would you allow non-nuclear family units to adopt unwanted children, as the numbers would surely rise? If not, how would you propose this situation be dealt with?

By "non-nuclear" family units, I mean everything from single parents to gay and lesbian couples to polygamous family units. Feel free to break that down in your response.

*grin*

Presuming someone deigns to grace me with their response this time....

firechyld

I oppose abortion and think it should be outlawed completely. I will answer your question. I think that children need two parents (a mother and a father). I don't think that single parents or gays and lesbians or polygamous family units should be allowed to adopt. There are plenty of married people who want to adopt. But, the laws vary from state to state. I know too many married couples who had to go outside this country to adopt a child because of the cost and red tape involved here.

And, before I'm asked, I have offered to adopt children to keep their mothers from aborting them before my husband passed away. One of those women was my own sister. She ended up not having an abortion and keeping the baby. She also ended up with four children. I pray everyday for the massacre going on in our world. These babies aren't even given a chance at live because women choose to use abortion as a reasonable form of birth control.

If the people in our country would worry more about their own integrity and morals, we wouldn't be fighting about abortion or whether homosexuals should be allowed to adopt. Families would stay together because "it is the right thing to do."

So what if someone is "born with homosexual feelings." They have to make the choice to act on the feelings just as I have to make the choice to act on my own feelings.

 

[Pilgrimagain]

ebenz, I have to say that I like your proactive stance. It is one thing to talk about thei ssue, it is quite another to step up to the plate and offer to help a hurting mother out.

 

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Pilgrimagain
ebenz, I have to say that I like your proactive stance. It is one thing to talk about thei ssue, it is quite another to step up to the plate and offer to help a hurting mother out.

Thanks, Pilgrim. The way I look at it, I'm just returning the favor. I was raped when I was 19 and thought I was pregnant. Abortion never entered my mind because I always thought it was murder. But, a very dear friend of mine who could not have children asked me to consider letting her and her husband adopt my baby. At the time, I wasn't sure if I was pregnant or not. But, because of her love for me and need for a child, I told her that if I was pregnant, I would give her the baby. I was too young to have a child (both physically and emotionally). It ended up that I wasn't pregnant. And, my friend adopted a baby from out of the country. But, six months after she adopted the baby, she got pregnant! Her doctors were as shocked as she and her husband were. I wasn't because I had been praying that she would be able to have a baby without having to adopt. Anyway, she and her husband now have 10 kids (6 adopted and 4 natural). And, to top this off, they live in California. When she goes out with the kids (ranging in age from 14 years to 6 months), she gets all kinds of weird looks. And, you wouldn't believe the comments she gets.