REPORT: Should Gays Adopt? - by Bob Enyart

[Projill]

Originally posted by wcgreer


Oh I don't think I'll follow him there. ;-)
I don't get much time to read and post, usually when I get to, I'm pages behind. Will probably just skip 'em if they are more than just a little old from now on.

Whelp, I've been coming here for well over a year and it's always really great debate. I've actually learned a lot on both sides though coming into this forum a pagan and leaving an atheist probably wasn't what it was designed to do...but the people, for the most part, are good people and I enjoy my time here.

 

[Prisca]

The Physics Behind the Creation

The Physics Behind the Creation

Projill, I once heard a quote from a physicist who said, “If you go back far enough, the origin of the universe always becomes a theological question.” (Sorry, but I don’t recall who said it.) Since you seem to have a fascination with science, I thought you might find the following information a bit interesting. It came from a website I researched for a post on TOL about 3 years ago. As you consider the information, keep in mind the current theories of the origin of the universe. I just watched a program on the Discovery Science Channel called Universe 2001. This program reiterated the claim that all the matter in the universe was once smaller than a grain of sand (http://cmb.physics.wisc.edu/tutorial/bigbang.html). In any case, I don’t see how this theory could be more acceptable than what you are about to read. In fact, the following is a more plausible explanation. It, at least, provides a reason (a greater cause) for the existence of the universe….

Analysis of Genesis 1:1 - 1:19 , day by day:

FIRST DAY
Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
[Here we have the creation of space and matter. Notice that the earth was without form. The matter from which earth was made was present, however it was not yet formed.]

Genesis 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
[Now we have an infusion of energy, or movement. The universe was taken from an inactive state, possibly "absolute zero" to a state of activity. From a theological standpoint, this correlates with John 1. The source of this energy being the entrance of the Son of God into the universe:
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Genesis 1:4-5 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
[If you study physics, you learn that matter and energy are interchangeable, so the division of the "light from the darkness" may be a description of energized matter being organized in some fashion. This would, naturally, leave "darkness" or the absence of matter/energy within regions of the universe. This becomes even more interesting if you study anti-matter. Our Milky Way galaxy appears to be made up of particles, yet it is thought that for every particle that exists, there is an antiparticle.]

SECOND DAY
Genesis 1:6-8 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
[Now God turns His attention to describing the actual formation of the earth, its water and its atmosphere. (the "firmament" BTW, is the atmosphere. Many people are confused and mistakenly think that the "firmament" is land.) This is an in-depth study in and of itself, so I won't go into much detail at this time.]

THIRD DAY
Genesis 1:9-10 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
[God now forms the inner structures of the earth and separates the water from the other elements to form the oceans and the dry "super continent” called Pangea]

Genesis 1:11-13 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the third day.
[God has created a fertile new land from which life springs. The sun's light energy was most likely present, yet still not contained in one place.]

FOURTH DAY
Genesis 1:14-19 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; “and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
[Perhaps only hours after the plant life was brought forth, God formed the sun, the moon, and the stars. (The Hebrew word for light can be found in a Strong's concordance with an index number of 3974. mDaøwr maor or maor or meorah or meorah [22c]; from 215; a luminary:—bright(m)(1), light (12), lighting(2), lights(3), shining(1).) This word also can mean "light holders" or "chandeliers.") In other words, God created some objects to be holders of light energy that was already present in the universe. The sun was given to cast concentrated light on the earth. These heavenly bodies were also to be "time keepers" for us, and indeed, that is what man has used them for throughout the centuries.]

I have one parting thought for you which comes from Hebrews and which ties in nicely with the above explanation:

Hebrews 1:1-6 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by HIS SON, whom He has appointed heir of all things, THROUGH WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

I don't expect this to "knock your socks off." I'm just trying to provide more food for thought.

 

[Prisca]

Why bad (and good) things happen to all people...

Why bad (and good) things happen to all people...

You said, “How could any god allow 9/11 to happen? So many innocent lives dying in a hail of smoke and fire.”

Presume for a moment that the Bible is true and that there is an afterlife. Imagine that there is a creator who made us all and desired that we have the gift of free will. How could He intervene in all of life’s tragedies without infringing on the gift He so liberally gave? He would have to violate the very gift of liberty He created us with that allows you to say, “There is no god,” and me to say, “Thank you for making me!”

Yes, we do live with tragedy, but we also possess the freedom that is so treasured by each of us. The freedom to make choices, to love, and to hate. Would you give up your freedom and everyone else’s in order to prevent the possibility of another tragedy from befalling human beings? God does not want us to suffer or experience pain, but that was the risk He was had to take in order to give us our wonderful free will.

 

[Zakath]

Re: Why bad (and good) things happen to all people...

Re: Why bad (and good) things happen to all people...

Originally posted by Becky
Presume for a moment that the Bible is true and that there is an afterlife.

What does this premise have to do with your arguement that follows?

Imagine that there is a creator who made us all and desired that we have the gift of free will. How could He intervene in all of life’s tragedies without infringing on the gift He so liberally gave?

How do you suppose that intervening in say, an earthquake, or volcanic eruption, or a meteor strike violates human free will?

He would have to violate the very gift of liberty He created us with that allows you to say, “There is no god,” and me to say, “Thank you for making me!”

Not so. If there were indeed a single omnipotent deity, his presence should be as unmistakable as the star around which our planet rotates and the gravity which holds us to the earth's surface. Unfortunately for religionists arguments, if he exists at all, he's not plainly visible, universally knowable, nor accessible on a regular basis.

Yes, we do live with tragedy, but we also possess the freedom that is so treasured by each of us. The freedom to make choices, to love, and to hate. Would you give up your freedom and everyone else’s in order to prevent the possibility of another tragedy from befalling human beings?

Human beings possess a limited freedom of choice based on their innate abilities, local circumstances, and the era in which they live.
Since none of us can actually give up this "freedom", what you suggest is an impossible scenario. We can merely choose not to make choices, we cannot give up the "freedom" to do so. It's sort of like asking "Would you make a circle a square".

God does not want us to suffer or experience pain, but that was the risk He was had to take in order to give us our wonderful free will.

If your "God" truly felt that way, then why devise a universe where the exercise of his "gift" (free will) has as one of its possible consequences unending torture? It seems rather silly to attribute that kind of motive to a being that, according to many Christians, plans on sentencing the vast majority of the human race to eternal damnation.

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
The only way the human race is going to survive (if we don't blow ourselves to kingdom come first, anyway) is if we eventually get off this rock.

Huh? Overpopulation? Too many people? I'm sure life on Mars will be much better, no bad people will be allowed to go? Overpopulation is a myth. The entire population of the world could fit inside whatever Oklahoma county you live in, then we'd have the rest of the world for raising food and recreation. Even the Godless U.N. predicts that by 2040 (? I think that's right) the world will be de-populating.

Originally posted by Projill
Science has done more good for the world than the Bible has.

I think not. The Bible has kept more people in check for thousands of years, true or not, than any dribble of science. Imagine what it would have been like a 100 yrs ago before DNA or blood typing, murder, rape, and general lawlessness to a high degree. God showed us this with the example of Sodom and with Noah. Crime was not punished. Cain killed Abel but wasn't punished. No more punishment, you humans are basically good, you can do the right thing. Well we aren't all good, we became evil and wicked, no crime nor punishment.

Originally posted by Projill
You don't know nor can you provide proof that God exists without going into some emotive argument.

Not true. It is funny, how someone can dig up a bone fragment, and tell us it was a man or woman, what they wore, how they lived, what they ate, what they looked like, what their family life was like. Yet you can look at a thick book with details galore and ignore it as fantasy. If a few details of the Bible were painted on a cave somewhere, it would result in volumes of 'facts' and forensic evidence.

City of Ramesses, we know all Egyptian cities and that isn't one of them, sorry. Wait the Nile used to be over there, lets look there, well what do you know, here it is. What's this writing, plagues, frogs and such? What's this, letting slaves go?
Yeah but no king had 500 horses and chariets. Wait, here are stables. How many? For over 500 horses, wow. But that water moving back business is just nonsense. Wait what are these lava rocks doing on top of this mountain? Volcano? Let's go talk to the people on this island there. Yep, thousands of years ago the water just left and many went and started gathering
fish, baskets full, but then the water came back and many drowned and were killed by the great wall of water. (Tidal wave sucks up the water, it goes out before coming back.) It happened again around 1940 but we remembered what happened and we didn't go get the fish this time ;-). Oh well you're right then, but that wasn't God, it was just natural occurances.
OH, so maybe the Bible isn't so wrong after all, but it is a good historical document, nothing more.

How about your scientific proof? Radiometric dating: One of the biggest frauds of the scientific community. I can't send a rock to be dated. Let's say I was a Ph.D. evolutionist, where did you find this rock? How deep was it? What fossils were found with it, or near it? Why would you need to know this? If it is so exact, put it in the machine, burn it- gas it- blow it up, whatever you do to it, and have it spit out a number. We can't do that. Question: Why? Answer: Because it is a guess! They won't take samples from the general public because they've been embarrased too many times.

Evolution: Another fraud. No evidence, so let's make some up. "Lucy" look this knee, it is the missing link we need to prove we first walked upright. What knee, your book and notes didn't say anything about a knee, Oh.....we found that somewhere else. Huh? Where? Oh it was on another dig about 1 mile away, about 20 feet deeper, but we're sure they go together. How on earth did you figure that? Answer: Fraud! fake. But hey, these are scientist. This is your science.

'The universe couldn't have been created from nothing, that's against the laws of thermodynamics. It is impossible to create something from nothing. That Bible business is just nonsense.'
There was the swirling gas and it exploded and there we have the 'Big Bang'. Where did the gases come from? Oh, Stephen Hawkings can explain it. The Time/space Bubble Theory. Quote: "These bubbles rise up, most fall back on themselves, but every once and a while, one will survive, and in an instant, entire universes are created from nothing"
Wait--you said something from nothing wasn't possible? Oh yeah, but it wasn't God, it's just theoritical physics. Umm, okay.

What about all of those stars? All stars fall within a range, in size, density, gravity, etc. A light source is half as bright at the square of half it's distance, (not correct math formula)
but at 100 yards a flashlight will be half as bright as it is at 50 yards, (or something like that, (don't make me go look it up)). The largest star is 100 times bigger than the small ones,
about like Mercury or Venus compared to say Jupiter, etc. Well if that particular star is the distance you say it is, how can we see it? Well it's billions of times brighter. A star no more than 100 times the smallest size is billions of times brighter? That doesn't make any sense. Well sure it does, we can see it can't we, so I must be correct on this. That's your science?

Originally posted by Projill
It's funny that when theists convert their testimonies are all emotional and "full of the spirit" but when an atheist de-converts it's through logic and reason. If the Christian god is real, why would he bother creating logic and reason? There would be no point.

There is no logic or reason behind the guesses or speculations of your science. But I love science. If I could take a rock and pop it in a machine and it spits out 2 million years, great. I can send it to another machine and I'll get the same results right? Well.....no. How deep was it, where did you find it? Why does it matter?
I roll a ball and it stops due to gravity, friction, etc. That is science. Plants convert sunlight to food with complex chemical processes, that is science. The sun is burning hydrogen, carbon, etc. that is science. How did the sun get here? OH yeah, it came from a bubble in space time and just popped out of nothing. But that wasn't God, it's just physics. We don't believe that hocus pocus stuff in the Bible, just the space-time warp bubble popping up out of nothing theory.

Take each cell in your body. When evolution was first accepted, cells were just round things that used energy and expelled waste. But now we know, the are highly complex systems.
We're hungry, let in some glucose, better push out that waste, OH btw, we need a protein made, lets go down that DNA strand and find out how to make it...oh here it is, grab me a hydrogen
molecule, get a calcium ion, two of this and three of that, wait, the cell wall is caving in, lets go fix that, How? Look on the strand, oh here it is, we need a few of these and a couple of those, and on and on and on. Very complex the inner workings of every cell. But hey, they were smart enough to decide to figure out a way to split, and again and again. We're getting a blob here, better make some vessels to carry nutrients to everybody we keep loosing cells over there. Somebody figure out how to make insulin, we'll be growing legs and needing to eat food. You guys become bone, you red blood cells and I'm going to be a brain cell. You guys there, you can be a colon, we don't like you much and somebody has to do it. We need to figure out how to keep this going, you know, reproduce, we can't keep this up forever...we'll die soon.
Okay, everybody thinks we should just split say 'I', wait wait wait, Mr. Brain has an idea, lets create two types while we're at it, and some of will make sperm and some eggs, We'll make breast milk. I don't know. I think every summer we should just start to split down the middle. Yeah but then everybody will say, look they split twice last year, and we won't need a sex, we're so good at this splitting business. I like this combining stuff, we can all intermingle.
Even Stephen Hawkings writes, 'DNA is just so complex it is unlikely to have just developed'. It must have come from another planet, an astroid perhaps. I didn't know DNA could survive the re-entry burn but I guess it can. 'That's why we look at Mars and these astroids to find out where we came from.' Huh? Isn't that a little like going next door to investigate a crime scene? Look here! This is where the life is? Oh we tried but we couldn't figure it out.

We study bacteria because we can get many generations in a short time, much quicker than waiting for my son to have a son to test for long term genetic problems, etc. How many pictures per second does a TV scan? You can't get bacteria to reproduce 30 or 60 times a second. Turn on your TV to a non-channel. You'll get millions of images, and soon billions and billions. How long will you sit there before you see a picture of yourself? Okay, too complex. How about a picture of a TV? How about a hammer? I'll settle for just a straight line? How long?
It will never ever happen. Ever.

We know, (by science) how much salt is erroded into the oceans each year and this was confirmed during the 50's and 60's. Each year the salinity content of the oceans was measured, yep it was confirmed. Well hey, how about we subtract this back and back and back until we reach zero, okay, 2, 5, carry the one, okay the answer is: 9000 years? Huh, that's not billions and billions. We'll the earth must not have had salt in the ground back then, it just started then. Huh? This is your science?

NASA thought the moon had so much space dust on it, the Apollo would sink, so lets put these pods on there to keep it from sinking. What? Only an inch? Oh our calculations must have been wrong, no, you're calculations are correct, you just need to stop at 6000 years or so and you would have nailed it. OH we didn't have much space dust much past 10,000 years ago. That's your science?

Originally posted by Projill
I just don't want to waste my life denying myself my sexual orientation...denying the wonderful pleasures and happiness of life in general...on a mythical war god...especially on one so cruel.

I see now, you're a homosexual. 'Since God calls me an abomination, and I want to be this way, God can't be right. I know more than God, so I'll just lash out and try to prove to myself he doesn't exist so I can feel better about my perversion?' God did not fly that plane on 9/11. God didn't get the U-Haul for the Ok. City bombing. Man did that to himself. As I say before, a point you seemed to have missed, I love my son more because I know I may not see him again. If we were all protected, it wouldn't matter if I hugged him or not today, I'll see him later. Our love and appreciation for life would be less meaningful. Besides, when God did miracles for people, they hated him for it. It would be the same as today, "God stop jumping in here all the time, let us live our own lives....Kay? Go make some more stars or something". Or better yet, OKay 5000 lives are too many, I'll stop that, how about my brother in a car crash? One isn't worthy. When you get into that, 5000 is worth it, but my life alone God doesn't think much of, therefore I'm insignificant.

As for proof. If I found a watch on the ground in the woods, or even something less complex, say a spring, what could we conclude? Someone dropped it here, placed it here, fell off of some machine going by. Never ever would you conclude that the iron in the ground just happened to form in this particular shape. Yet you believe you are nothing more than some chance chemical bonds that formed eyes, hearts, sperm, eggs, smell, and taste, it just happened.
You wouldn't think that of a spring, but you think that of yourself?

 

[Projill]

Sorry, wcgreer...I had to cut this down because most of what you talked about merits no response unless you want to cite a few sources first as far as the evils and frauds of the scientific community (which, by the way, has no motive to disprove the Bible.) You don't watch a lot of the Discovery channel do you?

Originally posted by wcgreer


I see now, you're a homosexual.

Nope. Technically I'm bisexual. I'm also a human rights activist and gay rights activist.

'Since God calls me an abomination, and I want to be this way, God can't be right. I know more than God, so I'll just lash out and try to prove to myself he doesn't exist so I can feel better about my perversion?'

Oddly enough, my sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with my atheism. I could still believe in God and be bisexual. If you don't believe me check out all the fabulous people at www.soulforce.org who seem to have very little problem with their spirituality...they just have a problem with the Southern Baptists (but hey, who doesn't? )

God did not fly that plane on 9/11. God didn't get the U-Haul for the Ok. City bombing. Man did that to himself.

No argument here.

As I say before, a point you seemed to have missed, I love my son more because I know I may not see him again. If we were all protected, it wouldn't matter if I hugged him or not today, I'll see him later.

Please don't tell me that that's your only reason.

Our love and appreciation for life would be less meaningful.

Without the fear of death? I agree.

Besides, when God did miracles for people, they hated him for it.

I didn't hear the leper complaining.

It would be the same as today, "God stop jumping in here all the time, let us live our own lives....Kay? Go make some more stars or something".

So your excuse for God no longer taking an active role in the community (which he seemed to like to do throughout both the old and new testament) is that we weren't grateful enough? Very convenient. My parents insisted on taking an active roll in my life even when I was a rebellious teenager and told them to leave me alone. I guess God's a pushover?

Or better yet, OKay 5000 lives are too many, I'll stop that, how about my brother in a car crash? One isn't worthy. When you get into that, 5000 is worth it, but my life alone God doesn't think much of, therefore I'm insignificant.

You're reminding me of an episode of Futurama.

As for proof. If I found a watch on the ground in the woods, or even something less complex, say a spring, what could we conclude? Someone dropped it here, placed it here, fell off of some machine going by. Never ever would you conclude that the iron in the ground just happened to form in this particular shape. Yet you believe you are nothing more than some chance chemical bonds that formed eyes, hearts, sperm, eggs, smell, and taste, it just happened.

Yup. You should really read Richard Dawkins' book The Blind Watchmaker. I'm wading through it myself right now in an effort to understand evolution better since I'm not a biologist (I'm an English major, actually.)

You wouldn't think that of a spring, but you think that of yourself?

I think if we were to do a bit of research we could figure out the intelligent origin of a watch or a spring. We have no proof of an intelligent designer of the universe. I've heard that one day the Milky Way galaxy (albeit eons upon eons into the future) will be in a hit and run with another galaxy.

At which point I'm certain God will say "D'oh!"

 

[Projill]

Huh? Overpopulation? Too many people? I'm sure life on Mars will be much better, no bad people will be allowed to go? Overpopulation is a myth. The entire population of the world could fit inside whatever Oklahoma county you live in, then we'd have the rest of the world for raising food and recreation. Even the Godless U.N. predicts that by 2040 (? I think that's right) the world will be de-populating.

That's good to hear. But that wasn't what I'm referring to. I'm not talking about getting off of this rock because of overpopulation. (BTW, where do you get your sources when you say we could fit the entire world population into one Oklahoma county? I want to see numbers.)

I was referring to the fact that eventually our sun will start to expand and it will engulf our planet along with the rest of the solar system. We'd better be long gone by then or we're dead. Again, we don't have to worry about this for a while...but this is inevitable.

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
merits no response unless you want to cite a few sources first as far as the evils and frauds of the scientific community (which, by the way, has no motive to disprove the Bible.)

There are several books out there that discuss it, or if you want, next time I'm at the bookstore I'll look for some for you? But it would be better if you looked for yourself. You don't seem to agree with anything you're told only what you find. If you'll keep that thought in your head while reading those evolution books, 'Does this make sense?'
And BTW it has every motive to disprove the Bible.

Originally posted by Projill
You don't watch a lot of the Discovery channel do you?

What has that to do with anything?

Originally posted by Projill
Oddly enough, my sexual orientation has absolutely nothing to do with my atheism. I could still believe in God and be bisexual. If you don't believe me check out all the fabulous people at www.soulforce.org who seem to have very little problem with their spirituality...they just have a problem with the Southern Baptists (but hey, who doesn't?)

Your sexual orientation has everything to do with it. You hate God, you hate what he stands for, and you try everything to prove to yourself he doesn't exist so you won't feel so bad. You try to demean his wisdom because it doesn't make sense to you, or it's not the way you would do it.
God said very specifically throughout the Bible, homosexuality is an abomination. He despises it. But I'm sure he'll change his mind when he judges the soulforse.org group. "OH you love me, but you ignored what I said, you know this makes me sick but you do it anyway? Then you didn't love me, you loved yourself more than me".
The Bible didn't suddenly change in 1985, oh I know, for thousands of years the perverse, the sodomites, well you know, we had that whole thing wrong. The Bible, if it is any truth at all, shouldn't be different 100 years ago than today because we want it to be. I admire the Southern Baptists for taking that stand: 'you know, if this was wrong 100 years ago, then it is still wrong today, if it changes this is a social group, not a true religion'.

Originally posted by Projill
So your excuse for God no longer taking an active role in the community (which he seemed to like to do throughout both the old and new testament) is that we weren't grateful enough? Very convenient. My parents insisted on taking an active roll in my life even when I was a rebellious teenager and told them to leave me alone. I guess God's a pushover?

God left people alone in the Bible for ages. The first example of this is Cain not being punished for killing Abel. No punishment, you make this place what you choose. Generation after generation, nothing. We can get along without him, we'll handle things. The world became wicked and evil. As for your parents, I suppose they still cut your meat for you? Make you eat one green vegatable? Doing your wash though, right? No? Surely they make you go to bed at a certain time? No, ok that was then. Do they micromanage your life now? But they should, just like God should? At some point your parents let you have your life. So they are a pushover now? No guts, no love for you now?

Originally posted by Projill
You're reminding me of an episode of Futurama.

You said there is no God because he didn't stop 9/11. I was just asking how many deserve intervention? It was not a Futuram question. It was your question.

I think one think is true, Barbie??? was right. Why are you here? Either to take others with you, or to convince yourself because you're not sure you really believe it or not. If God does exist, and you cause someone to turn away from him, God says you're to get not only your punishment, but theirs as well. You're really playing with something dangerous, if you're wrong.
You remind me of the 'morning star, the bright one, another who hated God, mocked him.
You do hate God, for what he stands for, for offering what you don't want, or can't have.
Your parents loved you unconditionally. God wants us to love him unconditionally. Why?
It is pure love. True love. Not because your parents bought you a hot wheels set to get you to love them. Are your parents mindless cowards now, did they offer you a big screen TV
and ask 'Do you love us now?' You expect that from God. A burning bush, A cosmic disturbance perhaps? What do you want? He sent his son get executed while bearing the sins of the world on his shoulders, and would have done if you were the only one here. Because he loved you, yet you spit in his face and turn your back on him. Well good riddance. More room for me in heaven.

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
BTW, where do you get your sources when you say we could fit the entire world population into one Oklahoma county? I want to see numbers.)

Gak, I have to go break out the text books? Please can't you look that up?
Ok, check any Almanac and Book of Facts at your library.
Unless I missed one, Murray county has 420 square miles.
That's about 11,708,928,000 square feet. Current estimates at 6 billion people, everyone with 2 sq. ft. each will fit inside just fine. Although, I saw some guy tonight at a Chinese buffet, gosh he was easily 600 lbs. He'll need more than 2 sq. ft, but with all the tall skinny, the eating disorders, etc. they'll have some left over from their 2 sq. ft. It should all work out. Imagine that, the entire world population in an OK. county? Not the state, just one county! Everytime I get on a plane and fly somewhere, I look down and see green squares, everywhere, for hours and hours.
Where are all the people?

Originally posted by Projill
I was referring to the fact that eventually our sun will start to expand and it will engulf our planet along with the rest of the solar system. We'd better be long gone by then or we're dead. Again, we don't have to worry about this for a while...but this is inevitable.

So the sun expands? Is it getting bigger? Why is the moon an exact multiple of the size of the sun, and that exact multiple of distance from the earth to the moon as from the earth to the sun?
The moon, exactly, perfectly cover the sun during an eclipse. Is it getting an inch an eon bigger? I'm sure a few million miles away, we'll notice that for sure! How long will that expanding sun thing take? Trillions of eons? If it ever gets big enough to take over the earth, we're not very safe on Mars then. With that much heat and gravitational mass it's sure to pull, this whole solar system will get sucked in. If we're leaving, better be looking for a class M planet a few thousand light years away.
Thousands of light years? Oh gosh, we can't travel at the speed of light, we'll turn to energy, so we'd better leave now.

 

[Projill]

*sigh* Against my better judgement, I'm going to address this now rather than in the morning.

There are several books out there that discuss it, or if you want, next time I'm at the bookstore I'll look for some for you? But it would be better if you looked for yourself. You don't seem to agree with anything you're told only what you find. If you'll keep that thought in your head while reading those evolution books, 'Does this make sense?'

Give me a few titles. I know how to order off of Amazon. Currently I'm trying to make it through A People's History of the United States, The Blind Watchmaker, and the Harry Potter books but I can probably add more.

And BTW it has every motive to disprove the Bible.

What motive would that be?

What has that to do with anything?

Well, there's a lot of science-type stuff available on that channel. They do a lot of stuff with the BBC. Did you happen to catch the Blue Planet documentaries? Those more than the dinosaur programs reaffirm my belief in evolution.

Your sexual orientation has everything to do with it.

What part of that bit about Soulforce didn't you get?

You hate God, you hate what he stands for, and you try everything to prove to yourself he doesn't exist so you won't feel so bad.

I don't hate God...come to think of it I don't hate Santa Claus either. I hate what Christianity has come to stand for, however: hatred, bigotry, prejudice, superstition, self-loathing, and fear.

You try to demean his wisdom because it doesn't make sense to you, or it's not the way you would do it.

You're right that it's not the way I would do it. I wouldn't have invented Hell for one thing. However there would be a not nearly as glamorous area of Heaven set aside for those people who blindly follow 2000 year old antiquated books blindly even when reason, humanity, and common sense teach otherwise.

God said very specifically throughout the Bible, homosexuality is an abomination. He despises it.

So why'd he make homosexuals? Bare in mind that humans aren't the sole creatures on this planet who display homosexual tendancies. My very signature at the end of every post has "Wendell and Cass Live!"...a reference to the gay penguins up in New York.

But I'm sure he'll change his mind when he judges the soulforse.org group. "OH you love me, but you ignored what I said, you know this makes me sick but you do it anyway? Then you didn't love me, you loved yourself more than me".

There's more of that unconditional God-love you Christians like to espouse.

The Bible didn't suddenly change in 1985, oh I know, for thousands of years the perverse, the sodomites, well you know, we had that whole thing wrong.

The Bible didn't suddenly change in the 1860's...he approves of slavery.

The Bible didn't suddenly change overnight...God approves of the Inquisition.

Your Bible seems to approve of a great many things that most Christians now say was a "misrepresentation" of God's word. I wonder what else might be thrown out in the next hundred years.

The Bible, if it is any truth at all, shouldn't be different 100 years ago than today because we want it to be. I admire the Southern Baptists for taking that stand: 'you know, if this was wrong 100 years ago, then it is still wrong today, if it changes this is a social group, not a true religion'.

I wouldn't know. I left the Southern Baptist church at the age of fourteen and never looked back (funny enough...I didn't even really realize that I was bisexual at the time.)

I apologize as I continue to deal with your posts (which are exhausted...try proof reading for the love of Pete.) It's storming here and the power might go out.

 

[Projill]

God left people alone in the Bible for ages.

When he wasn't drowning them all or killing all the first-born of Egypt.

The first example of this is Cain not being punished for killing Abel.

Yet their mom and dad got into pretty big trouble for eating a piece of fruit. God needs to fix his priorities.

No punishment, you make this place what you choose.

Finally! Something I agree with!

Generation after generation, nothing.

Just don't start reciting who begat who.

We can get along without him, we'll handle things.

Seems to work just fine.

The world became wicked and evil.

I thought we were born with original sin. We were always wicked and evil. That's why God sacrificed himself to himself to save all of us from a place he invented just to torment us.

As for your parents, I suppose they still cut your meat for you? Make you eat one green vegatable? Doing your wash though, right? No? Surely they make you go to bed at a certain time? No, ok that was then. Do they micromanage your life now? But they should, just like God should? At some point your parents let you have your life. So they are a pushover now? No guts, no love for you now?

Are you comparing the 9/11 incident to a parent sitting back and letting their kids do their own laundry? What an odd world you inhabit.

 

[Projill]

I think one think is true, Barbie??? was right. Why are you here?

Check two or three pages back. I already answered that question.

Either to take others with you, or to convince yourself because you're not sure you really believe it or not.

Either/or doesn't work. Try the third option: I came here well over a year ago and I stuck around because I made some friends and I like to debate.

If God does exist, and you cause someone to turn away from him, God says you're to get not only your punishment, but theirs as well.

When I was a Christian I heard a variation of that only it was "If you can't convert your friends their blood will be on your hands." Scared me when I was twelve...but variations of the "punishment" factor don't work too well on me anymore.

You're really playing with something dangerous, if you're wrong.

Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe we have Pascal's Wager. (Or did I jump the gun, Zakath?)

You remind me of the 'morning star, the bright one, another who hated God, mocked him.

I'm not mocking God. You're being overly reactionary and and using every tired old argument in the book. I'm just waiting to hear something original that I have to think about.

You do hate God, for what he stands for, for offering what you don't want, or can't have.

What would those things be?

Your parents loved you unconditionally.

Yup. They still do. My mother loved me so much she actually drove me to the very first Tulsa Gay Pride march four years ago because I didn't have a car that could make the trip. I know they like to hit me up side the head sometimes, though.

God wants us to love him unconditionally. Why?

Because he's been known in the past to act very needy? Not to mention he's done some pretty mean and unforgivable things in his life. So only through our unconditonal love would we forgive him.

It is pure love. True love.

Please, don't. I'm gonna get a song stuck in my head.

Not because your parents bought you a hot wheels set to get you to love them.

Not true...they bought me my doll house to get me to love 'em.

Are your parents mindless cowards now, did they offer you a big screen TV
and ask 'Do you love us now?'

My parents are middle class...they don't have that kind of money. Though I did tell my mother that one day I'd buy her a chalet in Colorado. I hope to make good on that promise.

You expect that from God. A burning bush, A cosmic disturbance perhaps?

Well, if Moses got one...

What do you want? He sent his son get executed while bearing the sins of the world on his shoulders, and would have done if you were the only one here.

How very noble of him to sacrifice himself to himself in order to keep me from going to a place that he created for the sole purpose of torturing his own creation.

Because he loved you, yet you spit in his face and turn your back on him.

Okay...I'll admit to being somewhat mocking of your posts...but that's because you seem to be inviting it. You notice that I don't treat everyone on here that way.

I honestly do not believe in a God! And no one has been able to give me proof other than Becky's arguments of both nature and scripture. I respect her arguments but I still don't see that as proof. You might think that I spit in your God's face. But I no more spit in your God's face than you yourself spit in the face of Allah, Visnhu, or any of the world's other deities that have just as much validity and fact behind them as yours does.

Well good riddance. More room for me in heaven.

Now I'm taking my toys and going home.

 

[Projill]

Gak, I have to go break out the text books? Please can't you look that up?
Ok, check any Almanac and Book of Facts at your library.
Unless I missed one, Murray county has 420 square miles.
That's about 11,708,928,000 square feet. Current estimates at 6 billion people, everyone with 2 sq. ft. each will fit inside just fine. Although, I saw some guy tonight at a Chinese buffet, gosh he was easily 600 lbs. He'll need more than 2 sq. ft, but with all the tall skinny, the eating disorders, etc. they'll have some left over from their 2 sq. ft. It should all work out. Imagine that, the entire world population in an OK. county? Not the state, just one county! Everytime I get on a plane and fly somewhere, I look down and see green squares, everywhere, for hours and hours.
Where are all the people?

Concentrated in the cities, most likely. The thing about this is that humans aren't just the sum whole of the space they physically take up. There's more concern over us using up our natural resources and land than anything else. I'm not an environmentalist so I couldn't get numbers. I think that's part and parcel with the over-population argument. I think there are a number of factors.

So the sun expands? Is it getting bigger?

Stars only have a certain amount of life in them. You do remember that the sun is a star, right? When they are coming upon the end of their lifespan they flair up before burning out. So it will eventually.

Why is the moon an exact multiple of the size of the sun, and that exact multiple of distance from the earth to the moon as from the earth to the sun?
The moon, exactly, perfectly cover the sun during an eclipse. Is it getting an inch an eon bigger?

You really don't know too much about stars and planets, eh?

I'm sure a few million miles away, we'll notice that for sure! How long will that expanding sun thing take? Trillions of eons? If it ever gets big enough to take over the earth, we're not very safe on Mars then.

Wait...have I mentioned Mars at all? We're probably close to 50 years away from even having a manned mission to Mars. I never considered Mars a viable option in the long run...so I never mentioned it.

With that much heat and gravitational mass it's sure to pull, this whole solar system will get sucked in. If we're leaving, better be looking for a class M planet a few thousand light years away.
Thousands of light years? Oh gosh, we can't travel at the speed of light, we'll turn to energy, so we'd better leave now.

Thank goodness we don't have your thoughts when it comes to interstellar travel. I've mentioned a time or two on this thread that we don't have to worry about this for a couple million years or so (I can check some more exact figures if you want but they'll probably be from NASA so you wouldn't trust them anyway.)

Hopefully, if we're still here, we'll have mastered some process with which to ensure human safety at close to light flight speeds or we'll have found some way to travel long distances...As I've said...this is not something anyone in my blood line will probably live to see. Right now, sadly, it's still in the realm of science fiction.

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
I honestly do not believe in a God! And no one has been able to give me proof other than Becky's arguments of both nature and scripture. I respect her arguments but I still don't see that as proof.

You will never find the proof, neither for evolution or creation that you seem to demand. You could be the one to find "The Missing Link". Yet you would say: 'That doesn't mean he found a mate', 'that doesn't mean he fathered any children', 'that doesn't mean he just didn't have a birth defect of some kind'. All of those statements would be true. But, it is a piece to the puzzle that seems to fit. It makes sense. You said we would find it, we did. That's pretty good evidence.
For almost my entire life I heard the City of Rameses didn't exist.
"We know all Egyptian cities, this Bible nonsense is just fantasy".
Well what do you know, we did find it, right where the Bible said it was. The hieroglyphs told of the plagues, letting people go, etc. But that wasn't God. No way waters could part, oh wait a huge tidal wave? That wasn't God either, that was just a volcano.
Well okay, maybe not, but isn't it strange how all of the pieces fit.

You seem to have a different standard of proof for science and another for the Bible. These pieces fit, those don't, yet you put your belief in the ones that don't.

 

[firechyld]

wcgreer: I've been kinda following this, kinda not. I want to throw in some comments, but I'm not going to do it at the moment as it's the middle of the night.

I'm sorry if this seems kinda rude, but I have one request.... can you possibly check your posts before clicking OK? They seem to be a bit "stream of consciousness" and are a bit tricky to follow.

Thanks...

firechyld

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
So why'd he make homosexuals? Bare in mind that humans aren't the sole creatures on this planet who display homosexual tendancies. My very signature at the end of every post has "Wendell and Cass Live!"...a reference to the gay penguins up in New York.

So you should be a homo because a penguin does?
Next time you go to the mall, and you have to potty, just pull down your pants and go right there, horses do, cows do, my dogs do, they don't care if you watch.

Next time you go get groceries and run across a homo buddy, you two just start going at it right there, no other animal seems to mind.

I used to take care of a neighbors dog, was kept inside. I went over twice a day to let her our, but she never went. I found out she was eating it. Gag. I find out, there is special pills they gave her to stop it. It is so common they even make pills for it. Maybe you should take some crackers next time you go, it might be pretty tasty.

My two dogs are mother and son. Before they were fixed, as the son got older and bigger every time they would play and he would get atop her, he'd start humping her. Next time you see your Mom, give her a little humping action, let her know you care.

If you want to be like an animal, be like an animal. Animals are perverted creatures, why would you want to compare youself to them?

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
Concentrated in the cities, most likely. The thing about this is that humans aren't just the sum whole of the space they physically take up. There's more concern over us using up our natural resources and land than anything else

The Bible says this planet is being used up, it has a finite amount of resources and that's it. You're correct on the resources part, just not the land part. In the USA Today-Weekend Edition, a few weeks ago, had an article in there where the entire world population could fit with Texas and each man, woman, and child would have 1300 sq. ft of property. A family of four would have a lot parcel of 100' wide, by 520 feet deep. Heck of a lot more than most subdivisions give you these days.

As for watching the Discovery Channel, yes. I almost watched nothing else for several years. "New Detectives" show, now that is science. Someone killed with a shotgun, it's cleaned up, walls repainted. Shine a light with different wavelengths at the wall and you can see it, through the paint. Why? Different substances luminess at different wavelengths. That is science.

A body found beside the road, we think he did it. Nope nope, I wasn't anywhere near there. Seeds in the back of his truck are the same type of seeds from trees all over town. Let's do a plant version of DNA test on several trees around town with those found in the back of the truck. Only one matchs the truck seeds, the tree by the dead body. That is science.

But when some dolphin needs better senses and decided to develop sonar, or a fish decided one day to grow legs and lungs instead of gills to walk on land, it's just abserd.

Perhaps you missed the Discovery Channel's show on Moses and finding those lost cities, tidal waves and all that? Must have missed that one huh?

How many dinosaurs died at the beginning of the ice age?
Millions? Billions? Well there are 6 billion people, and if each one of us were a dinosaur, that would be a lot. But okay, 6 bil. how many died in these certain spots? Well okay, they all saw the astroid and got scared and all ran together. They waited there to die, one by one. So I'll give you, none of them rotted, or was eaten, they all made it to Texas, the Middle east, Alaska, etc. All 6 billion of them intact.
How much crude do you get from a dinosaur? A cup? Gallon?
It rots, decays, cooks down, well, okay, a barrel. A whole barrel for each one, and remember none was eaten, rotted, they all converted to fossil fuel. That's 6 billion barrels. The U.S. alone used that much in April and May. Where did the rest come from?
Oh okay, better include all the plants too. To get crude though, the trees have to be wet, green. A dried tree won't give you much in the way of decay. I've never seen a dead green tree being buried are carried away by other sad trees.
Oh yes, they were frozen. Then comes the big thaw. They get floated down the rivers, amassing here and there, bunches of dead trees, and billions of dead animals remain in these basins. Oh wait, sorry I was quoting the Bible there, forgive me, that flood business and receeding waters and all that.

Why are there none, nada, zero petrified trees with roots? Answer: They were snapped off at the ground.

How did Moses know you can find sea shells on top of every mountain in the world? Oh I know, it was poor little clams trying to climb mountains to get warm in the ice age. The mountains would be the first to freeze! How could they get there if they were already frozen? How did they get water up that high to climb in the first place? Why would they climb to the coldest places to get warm? Oh it was that big thaw thing, lots of water then. Wait the water high enough to cover the mountains?

 

[Projill]

Hahaha! This was easily one of the most entertaining posts I've read in a long time. Thanks for that. Dude, you didn't even answer my question: why'd God make homosexuals? You got so caught up on Wendell and Cass that you completely ignored the question. And you should really take firechyld's advice and check your posts. They do appear stream of conscience and you are coming across as both immature and ignorant. How old are you?

Originally posted by wcgreer


So you should be a homo because a penguin does?

Nope. I'm bisexual because I was born that way. I remember being attracted to both boys and girls from a very young age but I didn't really figure out what I was until I was in my mid teens...it just wasn't something I thought about.

Next time you go to the mall, and you have to potty, just pull down your pants and go right there, horses do, cows do, my dogs do, they don't care if you watch.

Aaaah...so mature on your part. Why bother to pull down my pants, though?

Next time you go get groceries and run across a homo buddy, you two just start going at it right there, no other animal seems to mind.

I'm not sure if you realize this: I'm female. If I were to run into a "homo buddy" in the supermarket I wouldn't do anything with him because gay men typically aren't attracted to women.

I used to take care of a neighbors dog, was kept inside. I went over twice a day to let her our, but she never went. I found out she was eating it. Gag. I find out, there is special pills they gave her to stop it. It is so common they even make pills for it. Maybe you should take some crackers next time you go, it might be pretty tasty.

Hey, here's a quarter...go buy some class.

My two dogs are mother and son. Before they were fixed, as the son got older and bigger every time they would play and he would get atop her, he'd start humping her. Next time you see your Mom, give her a little humping action, let her know you care.

Not only are you a class act you have no respect for the parents of the other posters. Nice.

If you want to be like an animal, be like an animal. Animals are perverted creatures, why would you want to compare youself to them?

What makes you think that you can attribute human morality (judging something as perverse or not) to animals? Never mind...I don't feel like reading any more of your posts. If this is the level you wish to function on, you'll be doing it all by yourself on this thread.

*and with that Projill puts little greer on "ignore" until he can get a clue and a little tact*

 

[wcgreer]

Originally posted by Projill
Nope. I'm bisexual because I was born that way

Bisexual is a polite way of saying homosexual.
When you have sex with another of the same sex, you are a homosexual. It becomes irrelevant if you also choose to also have sex with the opposite sex.

You were the one pointing out that homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom, look at Wendell and Cass, see they do it.

I applogize, I thought you wanted to be like them, if they are homos, you can be also. I just didn't know you wanted to pick and choose which disgusting animal behavior you wanted to mimic. You didn't make that clear.

As for your many points I fail to respond to, yes I forget some here and there, you bring up so much, then the Fire Child and you want to know why I don't follow along. Go figure, if I'd forgot something else, you'd hammered me on that.

Why did God create homosexuals? He didn't. You choose to be that way. And although contrary to popular, slanted, biased,
unscientific homo studies that show otherwise, you yourself show in your denial of this, you are attracted to males, (as opposed to others that claim they never were attracted to the opposite sex), yet you choose to have sex with other females. It is your choice, not destiny, not genes, not anything other than your choice.

 

[Projill]

Greer, for the record, putting someone on "ignore" is a genuine function of this board. If your most recent post was directed to me, I want to assure you that it currently will not show up on my computer screen. It shows up as "This person is on your Ignore List." With an option to click on a link to read your response only if I wish. When, through others responding to you, I can see that you are posting in a mature and intelligent manner, then I'll take you off my "ignore" list and we can continue this discussion at the level of adults...not five year olds.