Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

And the problem for those who subscribe to Arminianism is how God remains in control. Genuine choice means an ability to not be predetermined...at which point God loses control.

It would seem that God's foreknowledge becomes critical if we are to explain this seeming impasse.

LOL. Eenie meenie miney mo. Now your paradox means God is not God.

 

[Sonnet]

If you are not a Christian, why are you concerned about denying him?

I can't really adequately respond.

 

[Sonnet]

I am not sure why you posted that scripture and what you are trying to use it for; however, that scripture is about having to believe we have to believe that we have to obey.

It affirms the order you affirmed - faith then H Spirit.

 

[Lon]

Only in part. The point I was making is that if Calvinism is the Gospel (it is according to Spurgeon), then you have not believed the Gospel since you believe Christ died for all.

As I said, I believe I and Spurgeon reconciled this, but it'd take more time than I think you are willing. You are on a crusade. My question: What will you gain when it is finished? Mark 8:36 Matthew 16:26

I'm thinking there is a hollow victory for you here, if victory at all. It is a huge bite to chew and I'm much more concerned over the elephant in the room than the straw in the corner...

Scripture telss us that Christ died for all without exception and Calvinist deny it. It's a fifth column crucifixion of the Gospel.

...I truly think it the lesser if not least of what should be of more concern.

The outrage has been going on for 500 years.

I never did get outraged at Calvinists. Rather, I simply compared ideas to scriptures. Imho, this is what you should be doing much more than voicing on a debate website. Is this site for that? Yes. Best for you? I don't think so. Not at this time.

It was one element.

Sad to see. I never know what gets in the way of man and his God, unless there always was something in the way. In that case, you'd have to realize things were always in the way. John 6:66-69

 

[Sonnet]

As I said, I believe I and Spurgeon reconciled this, but it'd take more time than I think you are willing. You are on a crusade. My question: What will you gain when it is finished? Mark 8:36 Matthew 16:26

Lon - I'm just putting my two penn'orth in, that's all. Not sure it's about gain, but an automatic reaction to refuting views that are not substantiated by scripture.

Calvinist say that there is a sine qua non regarding faith - that faith will not occur otherwise.

Paul says something quite different:

Romans 10:5-9
Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Deuteronomy 30:111-14
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Calvinist: Faith? Without which NOT (ie regeneration)
Paul: Faith? Not too difficult for you or beyond your reach...

 

[intojoy]

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness; because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse: because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves: for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”
**Romans‬ *1:18-25‬ *ASV‬‬
http://bible.com/12/rom.1.18-25.asv

This has manifested itself from the beginning of mankind.

Those civilizations like the Mayan, Polynesian (I'm half), and others that worshipped idols and practiced human sacrifice were given to a reprobate mind.

Also involved in these cultures were demonic powers that the shamans tapped into. According to the God of Abraham Isaac and Israel the sin of occult practice could be passed down to the fourth generation. What's that 160 years? And if multiple generations were guilty of the sin of demonism then that might be why no one was saved during those times before the missionaries showed up.


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[intojoy]

*the judgement for occult practice could be passed down


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[Sonnet]

*the judgement for occult practice could be passed down


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Thanks for email.

 

[Sonnet]

An example of a Calvinist (John Piper) disingenuously offering salvation to all unbelievers:

"...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."

But this is what he really believers:
"We do not deny that Christ died to save all in some sense. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:10 that in Christ God is “the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that the death of Christ is for all men in the same sense."

Piper fails to tell unbelievers this whilst preaching.

 

[Cross Reference]

An example of a Calvinist (John Piper) disingenuously offering salvation to all unbelievers:

"...embrace the gospel that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the righteous one, died for your sins..."

But this is what he really believers:
"We do not deny that Christ died to save all in some sense. Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:10 that in Christ God is “the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.” What we deny is that the death of Christ is for all men in the same sense."

Piper fails to tell unbelievers this whilst preaching.

And that because of their failure to understand the difference between the event of redemption and it being but the enablement for salvation. The one being monegeristic while the other, synegeristic in origin.

 

[Cross Reference]

Intercessory prayer doesn't seem to have any effect, even in the biblical accounts. You have Abraham and Moses praying for their people, but that was part of God's plan anyway. When the early church prayed for Peter, he was still nevertheless martyred.

Nothing shows that intercessory prayer works, only that God is immutable.

Two things from Biblical history from the wriiten word:

Though God can surely make man willing to be willing,

1. Man's will, for himself by design, is stronger than God's. That is why it is always tested before God fulfills His promises and thus the reason for man needing a freewill..

2. The Spirit is subject to the prophet. That is why God picks/chooses those through whom He will speak. That is why the words: "Whom shall I send" were uttered by Him to Isaiah.

 

[Cross Reference]

Which provokes the accusations that Reformers do not really know if they are elect, until the end. Perseverance becomes the litmus test of salvation, rather than faithful endurance being the promise of God.

No! The issue is you keep stating such things as being the word of God when, in actuality, they are fabrications born in unbelief. Where is it stated that perservance of the saints is a "promise of God" rather than a requirement of the saint, in the scriptures?

[I think I just provoked a "no response" time for Nang]

 

[Cross Reference]

A final thought (maybe a little indulgent, but...) - it occurs to me that the scripture that says that there is a way that seems right to a man but the end there of is the ways of death (Prov 14:12) is speaking about man sincerely going wrong. Man THINKS he knows what is right, but he doesn't. And the thing is, it isn't often clear that it is death he is following until he gets to the end of that work. So judging a work to be of God or of man is, I think, something that often takes time to be able to do.

Question: In general, who is more quilty of "running ahead of God" than the non-Pentecostal?

Question 2: Who is more equipped to hear from God than the Pentecostal?

 

[Cross Reference]

=Sonnet;4732665] ... And the problem for those who subscribe to Arminianism is how God remains in control. Genuine choice means an ability to not be predetermined...at which point God loses control.

. . . . at which point God simply passes over that one He "promised".... perhaps merely sets him aside on a Spiritual 'shelf'.

It would seem that God's foreknowledge becomes critical if we are to explain this seeming impasse.

I believe I just did if we don't forget we were created in His image and likeness with capabilities. I.e., created as He is but without intimacy that would bring forth from us our allegiance as Jesus demonstrated we must have, which would release His Life to us.

 

[Cross Reference]

Romans 9:22
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This would be every man, I believe.

What I believe is missed in that verse is that man without God prepares himself for destruction who then, after the patience of God runs out, become the object of His wrath that He uses for His ends.. Pharaoh is a perfect example of this. God never hardened his heart before Pharaoh had hardened it himself, the same with Judas.

 

[nikolai_42]

Question: In general, who is more quilty of "running ahead of God" than the non-Pentecostal?

Question 2: Who is more equipped to hear from God than the Pentecostal?

I will answer if you will clarify with this : was John Knox a "Pentecostal" in the sense you use it? Were any of the Reformers of that age "Pentecostal" in the same sense you are using the term?

 

[Cross Reference]

I will answer if you will clarify with this : was John Knox a "Pentecostal" in the sense you use it? Were any of the Reformers of that age "Pentecostal" in the way sense you are using the term?

Knox? No. Reformers? At that point time and earlier, probably not.

Question for you: What do you believe is the "Spiritual" and "spiritual" condition of the todays church and why?

 

[Crucible]

1. Man's will, for himself by design, is stronger than God's. That is why it is always tested before God fulfills His promises and thus the reason for man needing a freewill..

Man's free will is depraved, only improved by God. One could easily say that a test of the will is really just the shaping of it. This doesn't work with 'double predestination', but is applicable in traditional Calvinist theology.

2. The Spirit is subject to the prophet. That is why God picks/chooses those through whom He will speak. That is why the words: "Whom shall I send" were uttered by Him to Isaiah.

Sometimes God simply speaks what is on His mind. It's part of the Person of God- many make the mistake of perceiving everything He says as a command or judicial inquiry.


The thing to understand about predestination is that it doesn't apply to God- because He is eternal, His words are eternal- they echo from the beginning of man.

 

[God's Truth]

It affirms the order you affirmed - faith then H Spirit.

Only those who obey by having faith with obedience receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[nikolai_42]

Knox? No. Reformers? At that point time and earlier, probably not.

Then by what power did he (thinking Knox, specifically) prophesy? Just one example :

The intelligence of this massacre {the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1572}(for which a solemn thanksgiving was offered up at Rome by order of the Pope) produced the same horror and consternation in Scotland as in every other Protestant country. It inflicted a deep wound on the exhausted spirit of Knox. Besides the blow struck at the whole Reformed body, he had to lament the loss of many individuals eminent for piety, learning, and rank, whom he numbered among his acquaintances. Being conveyed to the pulpit [in his old age], and summoning up the remainder of his strength, he thundered the vengeance of Heaven against that cruel murderer and false traitor, the King of France, and desired Le Croc, the French ambassador, to tell his master, that sentence was pronounced against him in Scotland, that the divine vengeance would never depart from him, nor from his house, if repentance did not ensue; but his name would remain an execration to posterity, and none proceeding from his loins would enjoy that kingdom in peace. The ambassador complained of the indignity offered to his master, and required the Regent to silence the preacher; but this was refused, upon which he left Scotland.
(From The Life of John Knox by McCrie)

Charles IX died within 2 years at the age of 24 - and had no heir.

There are other examples, too...

And did he realize he was prophesying or was he being "carried along" by the Holy Spirit?

My point is that the whole idea of being led by the Spirit in the Charismatic milieu is very centered in man's own intent rather than God's moving - and so centered in man's perception of it rather than the moving itself (which often is not noticed). Knox was a man of prayer and she is quoted (I believe) as having said she fears his prayers more than the armies of England and Scotland. But if he isn't Pentecostal in any sense of the word? Does that then invalidate his apparent ability to hear from God?

Question for you: What do you believe is the "Spiritual" and "spiritual" condition of the todays church and why?

If by distinguishing between "Spiritual" and "spiritual" you mean general condition of man's spirit (men in the church, that is) vs. how full of the Spirit of God the church is, I don't think there is a distinction. I think one is a direct reflection of the other and the two cannot be separated. It is, I think, reflected in the affluence of Western Society generally and the development of a spiritual malaise - as compared with men of earlier generations who were not so constantly distracted by...distractions. The quote that comes to mind is not only reflective of the leaders of the church, but the church (in general) itself (in the Western world, that is) :

Once we had wooden chalices and golden priests; now we have golden chalices and wooden priests.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson