Real Science Radio: Plate Tectonics. Not.

[Stripe]

The point? Do you mean the strain or the stress? Plastic deformation of the rock allows it to bend without cracking (it flows) which REDUCES the stress. The tensile stress is not the limiting factor here, but the strain (level of deformation). Plastic flow depends on both the pressure (due to depth) and the strain rate (think 'silly putty').

Asserting it is so ain't helping your case.

Rock suffers things called shear stress, compressional stress and tensional stress. They have numbers on those things because they break when the number is exceeded. That number is not time dependent.

The assumed criterion for fracture initiation is that a crack will propagate from the boundary of the elliptical flaw when the tangential stress σ_b reaches a limiting value equal to the tensile strength of the material at that point...

Rock fracture in compression.
The condition for the onset of shear movement may be expressed by the following equation:

τ_xy = τ_o + µσ_y​

-source.

The same goes for any paper or calculation of fracture of rocks. Water content can change the energy required. Pressure and heat can change it. Pre-existence of faults can change it. Lots of potential conditions need to be considered before we can predict the failure point of a material. But what is never included is a measure of how quickly the stress is applied.

No mention of time - unless you have something for us.

 

[gcthomas]

Asserting it is so ain't helping your case.

Rock suffers things called shear stress, compressional stress and tensional stress. They have numbers on those things because they break when the number is exceeded. That number is not time dependent.

The assumed criterion for fracture initiation is that a crack will propagate from the boundary of the elliptical flaw when the tangential stress σ_b reaches a limiting value equal to the tensile strength of the material at that point...

Rock fracture in compression.
The condition for the onset of shear movement may be expressed by the following equation:

τ_xy = τ_o + µσ_y​

-source.

The same goes for any paper or calculation of fracture of rocks. Water content can change the energy required. Pressure and heat can change it. Pre-existence of faults can change it. Lots of potential conditions need to be considered before we can predict the failure point of a material. But what is never included is a measure of how quickly the stress is applied.

No mention of time - unless you have something for us.

I think you still have stress and strain confused, and you are also now presenting a civil engineer's paper in lieu of a geologists for rocks under extreme conditions. You might know that the failure of rock can be delayed by plastic flow since the movement of the rock REDUCES the stress. A focus on stress, when you are describing changes in shape (strain) will continue to mislead you.

The permanent folding of rocks without large scale faulting can be made by crystal dislocations, small scale fractures of individual crystals or larger scale ones, and by plastic flow.

You say I'm asserting rocks can flow: didn't you read my post #77? Experimental evidence of large scale plastic deformation of rocks, when exposed to the high pressure of deeply buried rocks, easily enough to allow the formation of folds caused by tectonic activity.

 

[Stripe]

You might know that the failure of rock can be delayed by plastic flow since the movement of the rock REDUCES the stress.

Of course it does. But that has nothing to do with the time over which the energy is applied.

The permanent folding of rocks without large scale faulting can be made by crystal dislocations, small scale fractures of individual crystals or larger scale ones, and by plastic flow.

No, it can't. Rock has a failure point far before it can be folded anything near like what we see in the rock record.

Only unconsolidated sediment could be folded like we see. Cementation followed.

You say I'm asserting rocks can flow: didn't you read my post #77?

:dizzy:

Of I course I am saying you assert rocks can flow. I know rocks can flow. I will assert that too!

Experimental evidence of large scale plastic deformation of rocks, when exposed to the high pressure of deeply buried rocks, easily enough to allow the formation of folds caused by tectonic activity.

What experimental evidence?

 

[gcthomas]

Of course it does. But that has nothing to do with the time over which the energy is applied.

No, it can't. Rock has a failure point far before it can be folded anything near like what we see in the rock record.

Only unconsolidated sediment could be folded like we see. Cementation followed.

Of I course I am saying you assert rocks can flow. I know rocks can flow. I will assert that too!

What experimental evidence?

If you know rock can flow, why don't you believe that they can fold like we see? Plastic deformation of 30% allows a LOT of folding before it fractures on a large scale.

 

[The Barbarian]

No, it can't. Rock has a failure point far before it can be folded anything near like what we see in the rock record.

Only unconsolidated sediment could be folded like we see.

And yet there are formations in which some of the strata are nicely folded, and others shattered at bends. Clearly the folded strata were rock at the time the shattered strata broke, since there is no flow of the folded strata into the shattered rock.

Mechanisms for folding of solid rock are well-known and measurable. No point in denying it.




Cementation followed.

 

[Stripe]

If you know rock can flow, why don't you believe that they can fold like we see?

Because rock also has a failure point. And that failure point is well before the deformation we see.

 

[Nick M]

I think you still have stress and strain confused.

Considering his career field, I don't hink he is confused at all.

 

[gcthomas]

Considering his career field, I don't hink he is confused at all.

Career field? His profile has him as a sports coach.

In any case, I suspect the confusion is deliberate to avoid accepting the bleeding obvious.

This image of Stair Hole in Dorset, England, where I have carried out some geological field work, shows examples of both plastic folding AND fracture assisted folding ...

Stripe is dissembling as usual, pretending technical objections, when in reality his objections are narrowly driven by his faith.

 

[Nick M]

He isn't the first to walk away from a career because of intellectual dishonesty.

 

[The Barbarian]

His, that is.

 

[The Barbarian]

This image of Stair Hole in Dorset, England, where I have carried out some geological field work, shows examples of both plastic folding AND fracture assisted folding ...

So you're going to believe the evidence, instead of Stipe's new religion? Shame on you. WFTH-I

 

[Lordkalvan]

So you're going to believe the evidence, instead of Stipe's new religion? Shame on you. WFTH-I

Indeed. If 'Professor Toddles' has spoken, that should be sufficient for anyone.

 

[Stripe]

Career field? His profile has him as a sports coach.

I dabble in a lot of things.

In any case, I suspect the confusion is deliberate to avoid accepting the bleeding obvious.

What confusion? Rock failure is determined by energy added and there is no time component.

This image of Stair Hole in Dorset, England, where I have carried out some geological field work, shows examples of both plastic folding AND fracture assisted folding ...

Implying that your assessment is true doesn't provide any evidence.

Stripe is dissembling as usual, pretending technical objections, when in reality his objections are narrowly driven by his faith.

Math, in fact.

He isn't the first to walk away from a career because of intellectual dishonesty.

Well, to be fair, it's not a geology career I'm walking away from at the moment because it is dishonest.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Stretched Oceanic Ridges. The topography along oceanic ridges is best explained by stretching the ocean floors in two perpendicular directions. How could that happen? HP: [Hydroplate Theory suggests] As the Atlantic floor and Mid-Oceanic Ridge rose, they stretched in all directions, for the same reason an expanding balloon stretches in all directions. PT: Plate tectonics describes this stretching as seafloor spreading—movement of the ocean floor away from the ridge.

Here is a topographic render of the Atlantic Ocean basin:

Does it look more like expansion-driven stretching? The wrinkle-like ridges being highly concentrated around these oceanic ridges is consistent with seafloor spreading. However one would not think that stretching would result in "wrinkling" at these ridges.


Here is the "wrinkling" effect explained by Plate Tectonics:

Spoiler

It's the build-up of escaped magma.

Also we see from experiments that the seafloor closer to the ridges consistently return back a younger age for the seabed, which is exactly what we would expect if Seafloor spreading were true.

Here are two other effects explained by Seafloor spreading:


Magnetic reversal strips along Oceanic ridges

The Zig-zag Transform Faults:

Discovery, prediction and cause of transform faults


SUMMARY: Seafloor spreading effectively explains the "wrinkling" of the oceanic plate, age measurements of the seafloor, Magnetic reversal strips found along ridges, and the Zig-zagging of transform Faults that we see from the topographic render.

A response would be nice.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I dabble in a lot of things.

You're so full of it. You didn't even know geology concepts taught in primary school, you're a geologist like I'm George Washington. I'm in a completely unrelated field (Sociology), and even I knew that plate subduction was a cyclic process.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Or maybe your arguments will continue to stack up and I'll be forced to concede every point.

Tempting, no?

Or if my arguments continue to stack up you'll just ignore them....it's been several days now and still no response.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Still waiting for stripe to address the evidence....

 

[Frayed Knot]

Is the podcast feed for the show still working? I haven't gotten a new episode since January 3.

 

[Stripe]

I have been. :idunno:

Through iTunes and Google Reader.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

I have been. :idunno:

Through iTunes and Google Reader.

Hey, how about addressing the argument that you said you would?