Why not????? Isn't that part of having fellowship?
Because that is not the normative way things work between the spiritual realm and the physical realm. Shoot, I don't know if I've ever even heard God speak to me audibly...and He could if He wanted to. And He does sometimes, to people. And usually they are asked to undertake a great task for Him. But that isn't normative.
Let's define fellowship (from
Merriam-Webster online):
1. a friendly relationship among people
2. the relationship of people who share interests or feelings
I don't think you are able to do either of those things with those that have passed on. They ceratinly don't share their interests or feelings with you if you don't listen to them.
Merriam-Webster most probably isn't considering the spiritual technology that we have brought up before.
They share in the only interest that ultimately really matters. Salvation.
But you don't have to trust that I hear you when you ask. I can actually respond and say, "Yes, I will pray for you." And I hopefully will ask you, "What is it you would like me to pray for you about?" Despite the assertion you make that they know what's going on down here (they might, but we don't know if or how much they know), we are never told they can hear everything we say just by us saying it. So, for us to get the message to them, what do we have to do? In a sense, we have to summon them. I agree that the technology of the spirit world is a mystery to me, but some have endeavored to tap into that technology over the years. It's called a seance.
I have to trust that God can hear me. And I can trust Him that the saints can hear me. If Christ is the vine, we are the branches...and we are still part of the branches when we die.
A seance is completely different.
On the other hand, if you are saying we don't need any word back from them that our petitions to them (to petition God for us) are working, then the practice seems to be of little use. It's more of a "Hail Mary" play, like in football, if you'll pardon the expression and pun.
Love the pun! :thumb: Getting word back that someone is praying isn't the most important or even necessary part of prayer. It is the prayer going to God on my behalf whether I know about it or not. I've heard some people pray for decades for their spouses. It isn't the spouse knowing about it that matters. It's the prayers themselves.
Ok.
From Merriam-Webster again:
conjuration of the spirits of the dead for purposes of magically revealing the future or influencing the course of events
Isn't that what prayer is? At least a good part of it? We are seeking to influence the course of events--which isn't wrong to do.
No. Because you are leaving out the word "magically". Prayer has no magic to it.
"entreating spirits of the dead earnestly for the purpose of influencing the course of events"[/COLOR] Isn't that exactly what you are suggesting is a good thing to do?
No. Because you left out the word "magically". There is no magically revealing the future or magically influencing events.
"St. Paul, please pray for us to become better followers of Jesus Christ." No magic involved there.
I don't know that that is a problem, as long as we aren't seeking information from them or "conjuring to influence the outcome of events". Some people feel Paul prayed for mercy for a dead man in 2 Tim 1:16-18.
Interesting verses there. Kind of unclear to me.
Why should we limit our search to the early Church?
I didn't mean just the Church and not the Bible. I didn't mean either/or. I meant both/and. I meant the early Church and the Bible.
Maybe the ancient Egyptians have something to say about this? Or Bhuddists? Or Satanists?
They could. But Jesus said in Matt. 16 the He would build His Church. He left if with His authority. Paul says in 1 Tim. 3:15 that the Church is the "pillar and ground of the truth." So I'll stick with Jesus' Church and the Bible that it recorded, preserved, and protected for centuries.
The reason we limit our search to the bible is that we trust it as a source.
I trust it too. And I trust Jesus and His Church. Because He is in charge of it.
Maybe you don't, as you seem to indicate you think the bible is missing something.
Nope. I do. I don't think the Bible is missing anything. I just understand that Christ's Church survived for along time without any writings and without a Bible as we know it. Because it is His Church. But that is a different topic.
But you've confirmed what we are saying--the bible doesn't talk about asking spirits to pray for us, and to justify it, you need to go outside the bible. That can be a dangerous thing to do, for various reasons.
No I don't. It's all in the Bible. (verses were listed earlier).
As mentioned before: We are connected as the Body of Christ, He has one Body, death doesn't separate us, and we are called to love and pray for each other. He is the vine, we are the branches and still branches after death.
You have to go outside of the Bible to say, "Paul meant that only for people living on earth."
Yes! Maybe he is tempting you to commit necromancy, when you desire to communicate with departed ones!
"St. Paul, please pray for us to become better followers of Jesus Christ." (no magic there, no magically influencing the course of events or seeing the future etc. So no necromancy.)
Just one member of the Body of Christ requesting another member of the Body of Christ to pray.
I never said they had no awareness. But are they here attempting to change things on earth? No, they are not. They are asking the Lord about how things are going to play out, recognizing that He is just and will not allow them to go unavenged forever.
Thanks a bunch for your willingness to "talk" with me, Derf. I think everyone else avoided certain questions that I had and ignored them. But you answered them and I respect you for that. I enjoyed our conversation.
And I'm tired. I think I'll not return to this thread.
I started this thread because I heard Mr. Enyart say that praying for others was a "perversion of intermediaries" and why don't we just go straight to God?
Thanks to Jefferson, I see it is biblical to pray for each other. As I see no biblical limitations on that connection between Christians...death doesn't separate us and all that...I will conclude that Mr. Enyart was simply wrong.
Thanks again Derf, and also Tambora, Musterion (no hard feelings), patrick_jane, Jefferson, and others who chimed in.
God bless.
