I do.
It is apparent that the LORD did not want people that do those things to be among His people.
So you gotta wonder why the RCC encourages it's people to do it.
Questions about Mary from a recent BEL show
- Thread starter Bard_the_Bowman
- Start date
It is apparent that the LORD did not want people that do those things to be among His people.
So you gotta wonder why the RCC encourages it's people to do it.
musterion
Well-known member
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
Hey Tambora,
I don't think the interpretation that you hold to is correct. I don't see how it can be.
If it is, then Jesus Christ Himself committed a sin at His Transfiguration in Matthew 17. There He spoke with Moses and Elijah. Elijah was assumed into Heaven, but Moses was dead: "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab..." (Dt. 34:5)
So Jesus did what Deuteronomy forbids. If He didn't commit a sin there, then all communication with the dead isn't forbidden.
I think the context of the verses of Dt. show that it is necromancy that is forbidden. That isn't just talking to the dead, but talking with the dead with the intent to conjure up spirits, reveal the future or effect future events. In other words, failing to trust in God for our future lives and trying to trust in the divination of spirits.
That isn't what Catholics do. If you read my earlier posts it seems to have been established that it is biblical to ask others to pray for us and to pray for others. What I don't see in the Bible anywhere is where anyone is released from that command at death or because the person they want to pray for them has died. I do not see where a Christian who has died in Christ is disconnected from the Body of Christ.
Are they?
If it is ok for my friend to pray for me today because he knows I am struggling,
why can't I ask him tomorrow to keep praying for me if I am still struggling even if he died over night? I don't see a biblical precedent for cutting him off from the Body of Christ which we are still both part of.
Is there one?
Thanks.
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
Hey Tambora,
So you are saying that Jesus did something that for us to imitate would be sinful? Are there any other examples of Him doing things that for us it would be sinful or is that the only one?
I disagree with your last sentence for several reasons. First, God forbade necromancy. He didn't forbid asking the Body of Christ to pray for us. As a matter of fact, Paul exhorts us all over the place to pray for each other. It has been agreed that we can ask each other to pray for each other. And you haven't answered my questions yet:
1. Where does the Bible say that that only applies until death?
2. Where does it say that upon death there is this radical disconnection between people in the Body of Christ so that they no longer pray for each other or can ask each other to pray for each other?
Also,
3. Where does the Bible say that those who die in relationship with God are "dead"? It seems to say the opposite: "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living." (Matthew 22:32).
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob died. Yet Jesus uses them to indicate that God is the God of the living. In other words, those who die in relationship with Him...are alive, just like the three Patriarchs are.
So let's say I lived with the apostle Paul and asked him to pray for me. He would and he would probably ask me to pray for him. But tomorrow, after he died, he wouldn't/couldn't pray for me and/or I wouldn't/couldn't ask him to? Why not? What has changed other than his location? It is not necromancy to ask Paul to keep praying for me. It is not conjuring or divinization or enchanting or witchcraft or any of the other things you listed above from Deuteronomy.
It is one person in the Body of Christ asking another person in the Body of Christ to pray for him. God nowhere forbids that. The Bible nowhere releases Christians from the exhortation to pray for one another.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
Hey Musterion,
God said not to do necromancy and divinization and witchcraft etc. Period.
Yes. Amen. I agree with you 100%.
And I agree with you that we shouldn't "seek after" (i.e. try to summon??) the dead. That is spiritually dangerous. I agree.
However, asking a believer to continue to pray for us whether they are on earth or have moved on to be part of the "great cloud of witnesses" is not the same thing.
God said that Christians are to pray for each other and ask each other to pray for each other...but only up until death and then no more?
I don't see that. God did not say that. Can you show me where the Bible says that?
Can you show me where Paul's exhortation for us to pray for each other and ask each other for prayers ends at death? I can't find that.
The "dead" in relationship with God, well, Jesus calls those people "the living".
You are equating necromancy with asking a saint who loves God to pray for us. Those are not the same thing.
Also, Hebrews 12 tells us that we are "...compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses" when speaking of great people of faith that came before us. This seems to indicate that the saints are not dead and are not cut off from us and even care about what is happening with us on earth. In other words, the spiritual realm is not that far from us and those who have died in relationship with God care about us.
Claiming that asking Christians who have gone before us to pray for us is necromancy really doesn't make sense. That isn't necromancy. I really don't see anywhere in the bible that says we can ask for other's prayers....but only until they die.
BTW, if the Transfiguration is the only place that Jesus did something that isn't sinful for Him, but we can't do it because it is sinful us...well, if that's the only place that happened...I'd be skeptical and probably conclude that there is an interpretation problem. I don't think Jesus would do anything, say anything, or show us anything that is sinful for us to do. That would be misleading us and He wouldn't do that.
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Ummm.
I said the law was for mankind, not God.
Do you think the law was for God to obey?
Communicating with the dead.
Don't do it.
Wait.
You think Paul was telling the dead to pray for others??????
You gotta stretch it way out of shape to think Paul was preaching to the dead that they should pray for others.
But just for kicks, why don't you tell us how you ask dead people to pray for you.
Do you just speak into the air?
Tell us the motions you go through when praying to dead people.
Talking about those that are dead as in have physically died.
What did you think I was talking about?
Sure.
Since you are both living, you could ask Paul.
And you could see/know if Paul heard you.
Cause if he didn't hear you, then you asking him wouldn't do much good if he didn't hear you.
How are you going to tell if a dead person heard you or not?
Do you just assume dead people can hear everything we living folks say?
How does that work?
Can only the person you specifically name hear you, or do all dead people hear everything everyone says?
Does it have to be a prayer, or can you just chat about anything?
And does your prayer to a dead person only go one way, or do the dead people you talk to get to talk back to you?
Inquiring minds want to know!
I'll say it again .....
God gave the law to mankind, not to Himself.
I mean, how is God going to covet anything since all belongs to Him?
How is God going to honor His mother and father?
Why would God need to tell Himself not to have another god?
Why would God need to tell Himself not to bow to idols?
The law was not given to mankind to command how God should act.
Lon
Well-known member
Relationship: Philippians 2:4,5 A concept that is difficult for many Christians, who are not a part of a body, is that our Christianity isn't just "Jesus and me." Romans 12:5 Part of genuinely learning to love like God, is learning to love one another. In fact, "all the Law and the Prophets hang on these two. Regardless of who we are, Calvinist, Catholic, or MAD, we all hold to the two great commandments as an expression of our faith. Praying for one another is loving one another, and part of each member belonging to all the others. Will God listen to just my prayers? Yes, and He does. Not sharing, however, doesn't build up the faith in the body of which I am a part. We don't do a lot of body building on TOL (or other forums) so I think it cannot suffice for church or the assembling together of ourselves. That said, we have a prayer section and we have saints on here that do little else but encourage the body. -Lon
Derf
Well-known member
I'm quoting Tambora's post, but this is really for Bard_the_Bowman.
Hi Bard.
But here's an interesting twist--are they dead? The ones you are talking about are those that died in Christ, or "fell asleep" as it is often referred to.
And according to Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are NOT dead, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, Lu 20:38. And I guess that makes His talking to Moses unlike what Deut. warned about. And it suggests that those that have "fallen asleep", might be more able to hear and respond to our prayers than regular-old dead people.
So that makes it even more important, if for some reason one feels the need to pray to departed ones, how much confidence can you have that they WILL hear you (are they either omniscient or omnipresent?), and if they do, how confident can you be that they will be able to accomplish what you ask of them (are they omnipotent)?
If the answer is that they aren't all of those things, your confidence surely must wane a bit. But if the answer is that you think they ARE all of those things, then you seem to be treating them as God, which is blasphemous, and we've seen good evidence for how God feels when people accept others treating them as God (see Acts 12:23, as well as here for a gruesome, yet interesting, up-to-date analysis of Herod's condition--Actually that was the wrong Herod, apparently. But it sure could be effective for dissuading people from accepting God's praise as their own!)
Also, are you perhaps wanting to pray to those you know, rather than Jesus? I can see that--but it seems like it introduces something that will take your eyes off of Jesus and His work on our behalf to look more at someone else. Maybe it reduces your opportunity to get to know Jesus better. If He calls us His "friends" (Jn 15:15), why would we want to go to a different friend that can, at the most, just pass our requests on to Him.
Hi Bard.
These are good questions from Tambora. We acknowledge God's ability to hear everything we say and to make sense out of it, despite potentially billions of prayers being offered at once. Do dead people have the same ability?
But here's an interesting twist--are they dead? The ones you are talking about are those that died in Christ, or "fell asleep" as it is often referred to.
And according to Jesus, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are NOT dead, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, Lu 20:38. And I guess that makes His talking to Moses unlike what Deut. warned about. And it suggests that those that have "fallen asleep", might be more able to hear and respond to our prayers than regular-old dead people.
So that makes it even more important, if for some reason one feels the need to pray to departed ones, how much confidence can you have that they WILL hear you (are they either omniscient or omnipresent?), and if they do, how confident can you be that they will be able to accomplish what you ask of them (are they omnipotent)?
If the answer is that they aren't all of those things, your confidence surely must wane a bit. But if the answer is that you think they ARE all of those things, then you seem to be treating them as God, which is blasphemous, and we've seen good evidence for how God feels when people accept others treating them as God (see Acts 12:23, as well as here for a gruesome, yet interesting, up-to-date analysis of Herod's condition--Actually that was the wrong Herod, apparently. But it sure could be effective for dissuading people from accepting God's praise as their own!)
Also, are you perhaps wanting to pray to those you know, rather than Jesus? I can see that--but it seems like it introduces something that will take your eyes off of Jesus and His work on our behalf to look more at someone else. Maybe it reduces your opportunity to get to know Jesus better. If He calls us His "friends" (Jn 15:15), why would we want to go to a different friend that can, at the most, just pass our requests on to Him.
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Is it possible YOU have been duped?
musterion
Well-known member
Making positive doctrinal claims based upon the white areas of the Bible's pages, that is, arguments from silence, is undesirable. It's not good enough to say such and so was not expressly forbidden, therefore it is ok.
So what you have to do is consider similar evidence, which Tambora has already done for you, or do the following.
The burden of positive proof is on you to show where Christians are instructed, encouraged or exemplified in seeking intercession, with God's approval, from a person who is dead.
Did you catch that? What you need to do isn't to show that prayers to dead Christians wasn't expressly forbidden, but show that it WAS allowed by showing where it WAS taught and practiced.
If you can show that, this discussion can continue
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
Jesus walked this earth as fully God and fully man. He could have chosen to sin. He was like us in all things except...He never sinned. Satan tempted Him to, but He didn't. He kept the 10 commandments perfectly. He did honor his father and mother, perfectly. He could've been tempted to covet things. After all, He, Mary, and Joseph were quite poor, but He didn't. He could've fallen into any sins that we do, (after all, He still had His free will.) Including necromancy. But He didn't. He could talk to Moses because that wasn't necromancy and Moses isn't dead.
You seem to be using the phrase : "the law was not given to mankind to command how God should act" to mean "Jesus, as a man, didn't have to obey God's laws while on earth". I disagree. As fully human, He did. And He did so perfectly. Which is why talking to Moses was no sin.
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
For Jesus, as fully human, yes...He had to obey the law...or else He sinned. Which He didn't.
Jesus did.
I disagree. No stretching necessary at all. Paul's writings are pretty clear. Jefferson put it this way earlier in this thread: "its biblical to ask for prayers and to pray for others." As a matter of fact, according to 1 Timothy 2:3 "..for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior."
Please answer this one question for me which you kind of seem to be avoiding:
Are people who die in relationship with God still a part of the Body of Christ or not?
Sure. I talk to them. Many people think all prayer is worship, but it is not. All worship is prayer, but not all prayer is worship. Prayer can simply be asking another believer to pray for me. Just talking to them. There is really no difference between that and talking to them on earth. The only thing that has changed is their location. It is a very one-way visit...but that shouldn't bother us. That is just sort of the norm for the "spiritual technology" as God has set it up. Sometimes it feels like I am the only one, but I don't hear God talk to me audibly either when I talk to Him.
The same way that you tell if God heard you or your guardian angel hears you. With Faith and trust in an all-powerful God. We have faith in God that He will hear us. And we have faith in God that through Him the saints can hear our prayers. That's not a faith in the saints, mind you. It is a faith in God.
Jesus says when we die we will be like the angels. He meant that to show that we wouldn't be married. But how else might we be like the angels? Well, the angels know what is going on here on earth. They rejoice over even one sinner who repents. Probably there is more than one sinner repenting at a time on the earth. Maybe thousands or even millions. How can the angels be aware of that if they are not omniscient or omnipotent or omnipresent? God lets them. It is through Him.
You are asking me if I can explain how the "spiritual technology" works. I can't. I don't know that. Heck, I don't even really understand how the technology of a telephone works, to be completely honest. But just because I can't explain it doesn't mean it doesn't work.Revelation 5:8 and 8:3 show bowls of incense being offered which are mingled with "the prayers of all the saints". That means that those in Heaven can hear our prayers and offer them to God for us.
Now: if you would please do me the favor of answering my question:
Are people who die in relationship with God still a part of the Body of Christ or not?
God bless.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Moses was dead? It doesn't appear that way. Moses was very well alive and talking to Jesus.
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
Hey drbrumley,
I agree with you. That is exactly my point. People who die in relationship with God are not dead. They are alive.
Moses did die. Deuteronomy 34:5 says so: "So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab..."
Yet Jesus is talking to him....because Moses is alive.
Thanks.
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
I'm quoting Tambora's post, but this is really for Bard_the_Bowman.
Hi Bard.
Hey Derf,
I agree that Tambora has asked good questions. It makes for a good conversation.
As far as your question above: Only God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. We all probably (hopefully
I agree. I brought up this very point in an earlier post. (I'm a terrible navigator right now or I'd refer you to a number.)
They don't need to be omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent. First of all, no matter how many prayers are directed to a saint it is never an infinite amount. It is always finite. Just like with the angels. The confidence I have that they can hear the prayers comes from faith that God lets them hear. It is confidence in God, not the saints. The only thing the saints need to accomplish is to pray for us. They have no power in and of themselves to accomplish things. A person in Heaven can pray for us just like they did when they walked the earth. Why wouldn't they? Do they stop loving us?
I think you've set up a false dichotomy here. The saints are not "omni" anything (to put it briefly). I agree with you that that would be blasphemous. And my confidence doesn't wane at all. Here's why:
1. Believers make up the Body of Christ. "For as in one body we have many members....so we, though many, are one body in Christ." (Romans 12:4-5 and elsewhere)
2. Christ has only one Body. "Saul,Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts. 9:4-5)
3. Death does not separate us from Christ.(see Romans 8)
4. We are told to pray for each other and ask others to pray for us. Period. The Bible nowhere says that believers are released from that responsibility at death.
In order to accept that those who have physically died no longer pray for us, no longer care about us, etc. I have to believe that they are disconnect from the Body of Christ at death.
But I don't see that anywhere in Scripture. I see the opposite. Especially in 1 Cor. 12 where one part of the Body cannot say to another part of the Body "I have no need of you". I don't see how part of the Body of Christ (on earth) can say to another part of the Body of Christ (those in Heaven): out of sight, out of mind (basically). "I have no need of you."
It isn't pray to others "rather" than Jesus. It isn't either/or but both/and. We established very early on in this discussion (I think Jefferson did) that it is completely biblical to pray for each other and to ask others to pray for us. Otherwise, when someone else asks us to pray for them we should say, "No. You need to keep your eyes on Jesus and ask Him only. The best I can do is just pass your request on to Him." But we say yes to each other all of the time for that. We say, "Of course I will pray for you...AND you keep praying to Jesus, too!"
Thanks a lot for your thoughts, Derf. I am kindof looking for someone to answer my main question at this point, I guess:
Are those who die in relationship with God still a part of the Body of Christ or not?
And I guess one more:
Where does the Bible say we can only pray for each other while we walk the earth?
Thanks.
Right Divider
Body part
Better yet, where does it say that we should?
Bard_the_Bowman
New member
I love how you said that...based upon the "white areas" :thumb: (Although, I wonder what you think of inference?)
Here's some stuff from the black areas:
1. Believers make up the Body of Christ. "For as in one body we have many members....so we, though many, are one body in Christ." (Romans 12:4-5 and elsewhere)
2. Christ has only one Body. "Saul,Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts. 9:4-5)
3. Death does not separate us from Christ.(see Romans 8)
4. We are told to pray for each other and that it is "good and acceptable" to God. (1 Tim. 2:1-4)
To say, think, or assume that the above only applies to believers on earth seems to me to be reasoning from the "white areas" of Scripture.
I have considered what Tambora has said.
I think the 4 points above speak for themselves. And remember, the dead in relationship with God are alive.
I think the burden of proof is upon you to show why being a member of the Body of Christ in Heaven changes the fourth point above. It seems to me that the crux of the issue is that there is an assumption that leads to a contradiction with 1 Cor. 12. Paul says that one part of the Body of Christ (for example the believers on earth) cannot say to another part of the Body of Christ (for example the believers in Heaven) "I have no need of you." Unless the believers in Heaven are cut off from the Body of Christ. I don't believe they are.
Ok. Maybe.
How about right after you show me where it was allowed, taught, and practiced to call God the Trinity?
I've been waiting quite awhile now for someone to answer a couple questions for me. Maybe if you will answer them, the discussion can continue:
1. Are people who die in relationship with God still a part of the Body of Christ?
Number 2 might depend on how you answer number 1:
2. Where in the Bible does it say that point number 4 above ends at death or is no longer applicable to a portion of the Body of Christ?
Thanks for the talk, Musterion.
God bless.