program

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You're wrong Nang, one must first place their faith in Christ after hearing
the word preached, then the Holy Spirit cleanses them of all their sins, seals
them and indwells them! You've got it all reversed!

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

One does not, become born again and then is able to believe! One must first
believe, then become born again!

 

[Lon]

How can anyone deserve something when they have no choice?

Scenario: I played in the neighbor's yard as a child. They came out and spanked us for hurting their bushes. I had no idea what I was doing was 'wrong' but I was still culpable. Were the neighbors bad or wrong (not to spank persay) to correct my behavior and protect their investments?

When I sinned, as a sinner, I knew I was sinning, after I heard scripture. When I heard scripture, that those who do such things deserve death, I believed it. Not only had I committed sins, I had made others my whole life by omission. Every motivation was for 'me' alone. I couldn't have done anything for God until I learned He existed and what His Son provided. Before then, I didn't have a choice, I was a slave to sin. How could I choose to love God before meeting Him? Yet, I was guilty. Paul in Romans says the Law gave us an understanding of the infraction of sin.

When I was ruining the neighbor's bushes, I had no idea they were expensive nor that this was a 'bad' thing. Romans says that the Law, after being heard, is what made awareness and sin utterly sinful.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Scenario: I played in the neighbor's yard as a child. They came out and spanked us for hurting their bushes. I had no idea what I was doing was 'wrong' but I was still culpable. Were the neighbors bad or wrong (not to spank persay) to correct my behavior and protect their investments?

When I sinned, as a sinner, I knew I was sinning, after I heard scripture. When I heard scripture, that those who do such things deserve death, I believed it. Not only had I committed sins, I had made others my whole life by omission. Every motivation was for 'me' alone. I couldn't have done anything for God until I learned He existed and what His Son provided. Before then, I didn't have a choice, I was a slave to sin. How could I choose to love God before meeting Him? Yet, I was guilty. Paul in Romans says the Law gave us an understanding of the infraction of sin.

When I was ruining the neighbor's bushes, I had no idea they were expensive nor that this was a 'bad' thing. Romans says that the Law, after being heard, is what made awareness and sin utterly sinful.

Bad scenerio to support calvinism, because once corrected you are capeable of changing behavior.

To say we have no will to be corrected - and also say someone deserves hell, is more like this scenerio:

Parent: I command you to break that lamp.
Child: breaks the lamp
Parent: I am punishing you for breaking that lamp. You deserve it.

Or this one:

Person born with no arm. (obviously they cannot change this)

God: You deserve hell because you have one arm.

How can someone deserve hell - if they cannot seek God?

In your story, the child can change his behavior after being corrected. So the child can use his will to do the right thing.

We can use our will once corrected by Gods law and seeing our need for a Savior, to come to Christ for salvation.

If we know the law condemns us, and we refuse to come to Christ, THEN we would deserve hell.

Since Calvinism basically says one cannot do anything BUT sin, and cannot seek God, then how on earth can they deserve to be punished for what they cannot help?

You might as well punish a crippled person for being unable to walk.

Where is there mercy and grace there?

 

[Nick M]

:think: He adamantly denies it and has argued/debated Calvinism with me in PM's. He also has only about 6 threads he's started, two of which are MAD.

This is all I need to know from him. The link is now dead from purging, or if he deleted it to hide it. I don't know.

Does God want all men to be saved?

The answer is obviously "no," unless you believe God is a Big Pathetic Loser. And before you start quoting 1Ti 2:4, consider first the use of the Greek word "pas" in the following verses, noting how the word is translated by the 17th-century translators: Mt 4:23; 5:11; 10:1; 12:31; Lu 11:42; Ac 10:12; Ro 7:8; 1Pe 1:15; Re 18:12; 21:19. [Hint: instead of simply using "all" to translate the word, the translators used "all manner of." Why do you suppose that is?]

He really just called God a big pathetic loser.

 

[Nick M]

And last I checked, VC (the cowpoke-not the commie guerillas) is also MAD.

 

[Nang]

And last I checked, VC (the cowpoke-not the commie guerillas) is also MAD.

Has he admitted it yet?

 

[Lon]

Batty? Is that what you libertarians call wickedness?

Well... let's see: :think:

Yes. In fact, until one is born again from above, they cannot comprehend ("see") the kingdom (John 3:3) or respond to the gospel. (I Corinthians 2:11-14)

I don't say "born again" but rather quickened or initiated. God, of course has to initiate. Not one of us said "Hello God, I'd like to introduce myself and meet you." Even a synergist is going to see eye-to-eye on such.
As to "Born Again" the term, comes from John 3 here:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

"Lord Jesus come into my heart" is actually a reference to Revelation 3, not here so we have to be careful with our christianese. I think Nang defines 'born again' differently here. When we hear and respond to the gospel, When do I become a new Creation? At which point? Can the old man/flesh respond to Christ? How is it possible if I am spiritually dead from birth? Isn't it like needing a jolt to start breathing when we are born? We haven't breathed a day in our 9 months of life until that moment when another gives us a jolt. Similarly, we have to have God and scripture bring us to the point of conversion. For most of us, I think, it was a matter of seconds after hearing that we were sinners and Christ died for us that we went through the whole salvation process. I was only seven so I couldn't really tell you each step but I do know God brought the right people. He was introducing Himself to me, it wasn't the other way around. I would and will argue nobody came to Christ until Christ first initiated and came to them. To me, monergism (All God) makes the most sense.

Well, I believe God Almighty is running the universe, down to every detail, according to His predetermined will and good pleasure.

Do you disagree?

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 15:5b ...apart from me you can do nothing.
1Co 4:7 What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?

Question: What 'can' we do without Christ? Anything?

It is those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life that are reprobate and who will deservedly suffer hellfire.
Revelation 13:8
Nang

Er, what aren't you agreeing with on this one? Doesn't this verse say that?
Help please?

Do you need to have the dots connected? He created them to send them to hell to suffer, and they deserve it.

There is a difference between what God decrees and what He prescribes.
He can decree everything and so folks give double-pred creedence, but I'm not double-pred. I do, however, think sinners deserve consequences, for all actions require them.

This is why I say she is outside the faith. She does not believe the gospel.

I'm not seeing it. I believe she'd use the same verse you and I would:
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[Christ's Word]

I am:

Protestant

Baptist

Calvinist (As far as TULIP goes, at any rate)

Libertarian

A guy with your intellectual horsepower buys off on TULIP? I am so disappointed....

 

[Nick M]

You're wrong Nang, one must first place their faith in Christ after hearing the word preached, then the Holy Spirit cleanses them of all their sins, seals
them and indwells them! You've got it all reversed!

It isn't an accident. She knows what it says and rejects it.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

People usually quote the second part, but the first part by Isaiah is just as important.

Galatians 3:2

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

 

[Nang]

It isn't an accident. She knows what it says and rejects it.

Romans 10

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

People usually quote the second part, but the first part by Isaiah is just as important.

Galatians 3:2

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

No sinner can believe the gospel preached unless God is drawing them to the Son (John 6:44) and until they are gifted with faith by the saving grace of God. Ephesians 2:8-9

Regeneration precedes faith. John 3:3

 

[Angel4Truth]

No sinner can believe the gospel preached unless God is drawing them to the Son (John 6:44) and until they are gifted with faith by the saving grace of God. Ephesians 2:8-9

Regeneration precedes faith. John 3:3

Romans 1:5
Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith

John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Shows we are all granted a measure of faith, and we can be both willing or unwilling to use it.

All means all. It would be weird for Christ to be getting on people for not coming to Him if they were unable.

 

[Lon]

Bad scenerio to support calvinism, because once corrected you are capeable of changing behavior.

Once you are enlightened in Christ, your newly created nature desires Christ too, so it is a rather fittting one, imho.

To say we have no will to be corrected - and also say someone deserves hell, is more like this scenerio:

Parent: I command you to break that lamp.
Child: breaks the lamp
Parent: I am punishing you for breaking that lamp. You deserve it.

No, that's a hyperview of Calvinism and even they wouldn't say it like this (most of them wouldn't but a very few).
Rather it is: "Your parents died in the street and you'll die there too because they chose to have you there. The owner of that place also owns you and I cannot get you out, so you will all die there. I told your parents this would happen and they did it anyway."

Or this one:

Person born with no arm. (obviously they cannot change this)

God: You deserve hell because you have one arm.

How can someone deserve hell - if they cannot seek God?

Paul, in Romans, says it is because we 'know' it is wrong. We simply do not know all the reasons it is wrong to God. We know what it is wrong for us. He also goes a great deal into the 'law' that reveals a thing to be wrong. A sign that says "stay off the lawn" might not give you the 'reason why it is wrong' but it at least tells you as a fact, it is. Similarly, without God's Spirit cannot know 'why' it is wrong or against God, but this doesn't mean he/she is free to do as he/she pleases without consequences. Paul continues to say, such a sin, even without knowing all the infraction seriousness nor all the parties involved in the infraction; sin is still a known infraction by our own fallen/broken conscience. We at least knew their was a sign not to do it.

In your story, the child can change his behavior after being corrected. So the child can use his will to do the right thing.

Again, the intervention was needed to change the behavior. I still have to pay for ruining bushes. Only a forgiven debt would prevent that responsibility. "Deserved" is a difficult concept when discussing these matters but the consequences of sin, are indeed death.

We can use our will once corrected by Gods law and seeing our need for a Savior, to come to Christ for salvation.

Yep, on the same page here. It required God's intervention.

If we know the law condemns us, and we refuse to come to Christ, THEN we would deserve hell.

Forgiveness for ruining bushes is great, but I still owe for the ones ruined unless someone else pays that debt. Sin has a terrible debt.

Since Calvinism basically says one cannot do anything BUT sin, and cannot seek God, then how on earth can they deserve to be punished for what they cannot help?

Same way I have to pay for those bushes. Maybe I didn't deserve the spanking, but I still have to face the other consequences of 'my' wrongful actions. It doesn't matter if I know or knew they were wrong or not. I'm legally guilty.

You might as well punish a crippled person for being unable to walk.

Where is there mercy and grace there?

Again, the cross. Every human being has several indicators that sin is sin. One is their broken imago deo. They do not understand it as relating to God, but they do realize a sense of 'right/wrong.' Another is social, as a society, they understand and learn in such a context, somethings hurt others and should not be done. Another is from seeing and observing the way God made other things in the world, where inferences can be made and drawn (Romans 1). Many also hear scriptures. Jesus Himself said rocks would cry out if need be. Romans 1:20

 

[Lon]

This is all I need to know from him. The link is now dead from purging, or if he deleted it to hide it. I don't know.
He really just called God a big pathetic loser.

Well, no, by inference, he was saying if you believed that, 'you' would be calling or seeing God as a big pathetic loser because not 'all' are saved (with neither of you believing in universalism {all}).

 

[Lon]

All means all. It would be weird for Christ to be getting on people for not coming to Him if they were unable.

You have to 'meet' Him and He has to come to you first, for that to happen though. We are merely arguing what happens first here in the salvation process. By Total Depravity, we mean not able to come to Christ and say "Hi, I'm Angel, could you please save me?" Christ first comes to us, not vise versa so I'm very much monergist in understanding how I was saved.

When the Coast Guard saves people, the guy/gal holding onto the life raft doesn't get a 'cooperative' medal. We see even that human effort of saving as strictly monergist (one-sided).

 

[Lon]

A guy with your intellectual horsepower buys off on TULIP? I am so disappointed....

Wow. I've gotten a few backhanded comments before but....

 

[Angel4Truth]

Once you are enlightened in Christ, your newly created nature desires Christ too, so it is a rather fittting one, imho.

Wrong, the context we were talking about was the ones you claimed deserve hell while being unable to be corrected.

If you are unable to be corrected and cannot do anything else - why would you deserve punishment?

Paul, in Romans, says it is because we 'know' it is wrong.

Very good, if you know its wrong and then do it anyway, you deserve it, that is why the law was given so we could know what we did was wrong, which is what condemns us.

Christ said untill He had spoken to them, they had no sin. In other words untill they knew the truth, they weren't held accountable for it. But once they knew, they became accountable - they have to come to Him.

What reason would there be to correct anyone who was uncorrectable?

We simply do not know all the reasons it is wrong to God. We know what it is wrong for us. He also goes a great deal into the 'law' that reveals a thing to be wrong. A sign that says "stay off the lawn" might not give you the 'reason why it is wrong' but it at least tells you as a fact, it is.

Ok, but if you get on it when you know better, then is when you would deserve punishment.

Similarly, without God's Spirit cannot know 'why' it is wrong or against God, but this doesn't mean he/she is free to do as he/she pleases without consequences. Paul continues to say, such a sin, even without knowing all the infraction seriousness nor all the parties involved in the infraction; sin is still a known infraction by our own fallen/broken conscience. We at least knew their was a sign not to do it.

Why doesn't always have to be known, just knowing its wrong is enough.

Why would God correct the uncorrectable?

Again, the intervention was needed to change the behavior. I still have to pay for ruining bushes. Only a forgiven debt would prevent that responsibility. "Deserved" is a difficult concept when discussing these matters but the consequences of sin, are indeed death.

One doesn't deserve punishment when they do not know something is wrong.

Yep, on the same page here. It required God's intervention.


Forgiveness for ruining bushes is great, but I still owe for the ones ruined unless someone else pays that debt. Sin has a terrible debt.

Same way I have to pay for those bushes. Maybe I didn't deserve the spanking, but I still have to face the other consequences of 'my' wrongful actions. It doesn't matter if I know or knew they were wrong or not. I'm legally guilty.

I agree and Christ paid it for everyone. Unfortunately some do not want that payment and reject it. We do not go to hell to pay for our sins, we go for rejecting the payment.

Does the law as we know it hold someone demonstrably mentally ill/brain damaged accountable to be punished? No.

Because they did not know what they were doing was wrong. If one has no will to choose right or wrong, then how can they be held accountable, (remember God says each will give an account) or deserve punishment? To deserve it, you have to know its wrong. If you know its wrong, then you can know the opposite.

Again, the cross. Every human being has several indicators that sin is sin. One is their broken imago deo. They do not understand it as relating to God, but they do realize a sense of 'right/wrong.' Another is social, as a society, they understand and learn in such a context, somethings hurt others and should not be done. Another is from seeing and observing the way God made other things in the world, where inferences can be made and drawn (Romans 1). Many also hear scriptures. Jesus Himself said rocks would cry out if need be. Romans 1:20

You just argued against your own position.

 

[Lon]

Wrong, the context we were talking about was the ones you claimed deserve hell while being unable to be corrected.

If you are unable to be corrected and cannot do anything else - why would you deserve punishment?

Sin feels good or we'd not do it. A drug baby desires the same drug it has in its system. It will kill it if it doesn't get off it. We are born steeped in sin. We will die because of it. At a certain age, everyone knows he/she is sinning. Deserve is when we do something wrong and do it anyway.

Very good, if you know its wrong and then do it anyway, you deserve it, that is why the law was given so we could know what we did was wrong, which is what condemns us.

Yes, but it is the law on all levels. You and I could not become 'new' creations if we didn't come to Christ. Here's a question: Why do we need to be made 'new' creations? What's wrong with the old one (trying to help you answer some of this without need of me)?

Christ said untill He had spoken to them, they had no sin. In other words untill they knew the truth, they weren't held accountable for it. But once they knew, they became accountable - they have to come to Him.

Verse please?
There are all kinds of ways (laws) that show us we are sinners. I gave a few such as laws in nature, society, internally from being made by God, and the written law as a few.

What reason would there be to correct anyone who was uncorrectable?

We have a death penalty for exactly this, right? Why?

Ok, but if you get on it when you know better, then is when you would deserve punishment.

Jesus had to die on the cross. Why, if as you say, all God had to do was make sure we didn't know any better? The tree that brought sin was called 'knowledge of good and evil.' You are sort of giving me hypotheticals that aren't true. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Falling short is a good term. It is like asking all of us to do a high jump of 15 feet. None on earth can do it but unless we can, we all die. The necessity of the cross is that He decided to do something about it. The wages of sin, Romans 6:23.

Why would God correct the uncorrectable?

To point to Christ.

One doesn't deserve punishment when they do not know something is wrong.

A child, playing in the street, doesn't know cars kill, but is still going to be killed. You don't have to 'know' a car kills to be killed by a car. Sin is a condition that kills us.

I agree and Christ paid it for everyone. Unfortunately some do not want that payment and reject it. We do not go to hell to pay for our sins, we go for rejecting the payment.

Verse? Romans 6:23 ?

Does the law as we know it hold someone demonstrably mentally ill/brain damaged accountable to be punished? No.

If they are a danger, they are still getting locked up. They are still facing consequences. "Deserve" and "Punishment" aren't the best Calvinist descriptors. I rather use "Consequence" instead for both considerations.

Because they did not know what they were doing was wrong. If one has no will to choose right or wrong, then how can they be held accountable,

Again, law is given to us on a number of levels, not just scripture. Even marriage is a picture, aliteration to Christ and His Church.

(remember God says each will give an account) or deserve punishment? To deserve it, you have to know its wrong. If you know its wrong, then you can know the opposite.

Consequences aren't always know, but it doesn't stop the car from creaming us, or any other consequence from happening from our actions. If we keep with "deserve" I agree and we are talking about knowledge of right and wrong, the very thing learned in the garden. If we are talking about punishment, I agree as well. I try not to reflect either idea when talking about sin when "Consequences" conveys the ideas, I hope/think, in a better understood way.



You just argued against your own position.[/quote]

 

[Nick M]

No sinner can believe the gospel preached unless God is drawing them to the Son

John 12

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

He draws all people to him. You have been shown this over and over and over.

 

[Nick M]

Well, no.

Well yes. Only a loser would want all men to be saved.