ECT Principles of Spiritual Growth

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry will continue to ask the same question over and over.

Yes, and I am still waiting for your answer to my question in regard to what the Jews who lived under the law had to do to be saved and receive everlasting life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Do you still insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

 

[Aimiel]

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by miraculous.

I see healing, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, prophecies, etc. as miraculous.

Nor should we hold on to something that is no longer called for. As I noted, we don't see members of the body of Christ raising the dead, or drinking poison, etc. Why is that?

I don't believe that such things are done for sensationalism. God doesn't advertise or do parlour tricks. He loves to maintain His Mystery.

That's simply untrue. As believers, we recognize that God has ALL THE POWER, and man has none...just as it was meant to be. We are confident that HE WILL PERFORM....not we will perform.

Amen. He does, to this day. He will continue, as Paul said, until we are in incorruptible bodies (perfect). Believing otherwise is selling God short.

 

[Aimiel]

I made myself clear.

If you did, I might be able to discern what it is you want me to say or not say. I'm not a mindreader and have no idea why you keep asking the same thing over and over and over and over. :duh:

You said that God gave you faith. Since God wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and he gave you faith then why doesn't he give all people faith?

You'll have to ask Him, since I don't understand what you're driving at and I have given you all I can on this question.

You are totally confused.

I know you are; but what am I?

If God gives all people faith then why do not all people have faith?:

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith" (2 Thess.3:2).​

Some reject the very knowledge of God that is available to all. It's clearly seen. They see God, but ignore Him. They want nothing to do with Him. They put their faith in their own knowledge or in money or whatever... but leave God out of even their thoughts.

 

[glorydaz]

Yes, and I am still waiting for your answer to my question in regard to what the Jews who lived under the law had to do to be saved and receive everlasting life. The Lord Jesus told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Do you still insist that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works?

I have answered. You just didn't like my answer. Which should be a warning to Amiel and others.

Faith with works was required of the Jews.

Which is why Paul's Gospel is so much better.
Now, works are not only not required, but will not be counted toward salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Some reject the very knowledge of God that is available to all.

So according to you God gives all people faith but despite that not all people have faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Faith with works was required of the Jews.

Just as I thought. The following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law are above your understanding:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Despite the Savior's plain words you insist that "believing" was not enough for the Jews who lived under the law to be saved. You think that you know more than the Savior Himself.

You put more faith in what some people told you about the Scriptures than you do in the Lord Jesus' own words. You just deny what is said here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

You cannot even understand the meaning of the words "whosoever believeth."

 

[glorydaz]

Just as I thought. The following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law are above your understanding:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Despite the Savior's plain words you insist that "believing" was not enough for the Jews who lived under the law to be saved. You think that you know more than the Savior Himself.

You put more faith in what some people told you about the Scriptures than you do in the Lord Jesus' own words. You just deny what is said here:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

You cannot even understand the meaning of the words "whosoever believeth."

Sadly, you are stuck in the same old rut.

It was always faith that saves, but God required more from the Jews. It's why James speaks of Abraham offering Isaac. The faith of the Jews was made perfect by works. You may not like it, but the Jews knew exactly what was expected of them.

James 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

This is not the case with Paul's Gospel of Grace. So, you can continue to try and force the issue, but it's quite clear to me. BTW...Abraham was circumcised by the time he offered Isaac.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It was always faith that saves, but God required more from the Jews.

If more than faith was required from the Jews who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus mention only "believing" as the only requirement to receive everlasting life?:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

If it took more than faith for the Jews who lived under the law to be saved then why would the Lord Jesus tell them that His words are spirit and they are life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your strange ideas the words of the Lord Jesus were not enough to bring life to those who believed because His words were insufficient by themselves to bring life to the Jews who lived under the law.

The Jews who lived under the law were born of God when they believed in the Lord Jesus:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

If we are to believe your misguided ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and somehow trick our mind into believing that even though they were born of God they were not yet saved.

You may not like it, but the Jews knew exactly what was expected of them.

James 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You overlook what James wrote in the first chapter because he made it plain that faith is sufficient for salvation:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Of course the Jews who lived under the law knew exactly what was expected of them in order to be saved because the Savior Himself told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Denying His words saves no one and that is exactly what you are doing.

 

[glorydaz]

If more than faith was required from the Jews who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus mention only "believing" as the only requirement to receive everlasting life?:

Spoiler

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

If it took more than faith for the Jews who lived under the law to be saved then why would the Lord Jesus tell them that His words are spirit and they are life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your strange ideas the words of the Lord Jesus were not enough to bring life to those who believed because His words were insufficient by themselves to bring life to the Jews who lived under the law.

The Jews who lived under the law were born of God when they believed in the Lord Jesus:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

If we are to believe your misguided ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and somehow trick our mind into believing that even though they were born of God they were not yet saved.



You overlook what James wrote in the first chapter because he made it plain that faith is sufficient for salvation:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Of course the Jews who lived under the law knew exactly what was expected of them in order to be saved because the Savior Himself told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

Denying His words saves no one and that is exactly what you are doing.

Try reading Hebrews 11, and then tell me what you see.

 

[glorydaz]

I see healing, words of knowledge, words of wisdom, prophecies, etc. as miraculous.

We certainly saw those things in the early church...during the times of the Apostles.

2 Cor. 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. Hebrews 2:3-5 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people. Acts 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. Acts 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

I don't believe that such things are done for sensationalism. God doesn't advertise or do parlour tricks. He loves to maintain His Mystery.Amen. He does, to this day. He will continue, as Paul said, until we are in incorruptible bodies (perfect). Believing otherwise is selling God short.

Really? Were all those things done on the quiet, you think?

Paul did not say those things would continue, and we don't see them continuing. We may call the saints together to pray for the sick...I'll grant you that. But, no healers to get any glory. We have the Scripture for our knowledge and wisdom. We have no need for some man to claim he has a word from the Lord. We have a direct line through the Spirit via the Holy Bible. Teachers use the Scripture. Evangelists preach the Gospel. We have no prophets predicting the future. The only ones who cast out demons are the Catholics and they have enough demons on their own payroll.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.​

 

[Clete]

My understanding is that those in the Body of Christ will partake in the "reign" mentioned in the book of Revelation:

"And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth" (Rev.5:10).​

From the time when living saints will meet the Lord Jesus in the air those in the Body of Christ will forever be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to reign from the throne of David all those in the Body of Christ will be with Him and will reign with Him (Rev.3:21).

It will be at that time when those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).

No. Kings and preists belong to the Kingdom dispensation, not the Body of Christ. Our calling is Heavenly and our citizenship is there. It is Israel who will inheret the Earth.

 

[Clete]

You're reading a word (dispensation) as meaning that a time of NO SUCH THING AS GOD MOVING WITH ANY POWER, rather than as meaning that Paul was told to preach The Gospel to those who need God's Grace and Mercy.

Aimiel,

Why Paul?

Where the Twelve not trained by the Lord Himself and then specifically told to go and preach the gospel?

The Twelve had barely gotten started and were extraordinarily enthusiastic and even indwelt by the Holy Spirit Himself, so where is the need for a thirteenth Apostle? And why would they have agreed with Paul to dispense with the great commission and remain in Jerusalem while he (Paul) went to the rest of the world? Also, what is the difference between the Gospel of The Circumcision and the Gospel of Uncircumcision? (Gal. 2:6-9).

Lastly, what does this passage mean...

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.​

Why didn't Jesus' prophecy come to pass?

Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Our calling is Heavenly and our citizenship is there.

The calling of those who received the book of Hebrews was also heavenly:

"Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus" (Heb.3:1).​

And since the Jews who believed in the Lord Jesus were born of God (Jn.1:11-13) then their citizenship is also in heaven. Besides that, the Jews who lived under the law received this everlasting life in heaven by faith and faith alone, as witnessed by the following words of the Lord Jesus:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

It is Israel who will inheret the Earth.

From the time when living saints will meet the Lord Jesus in the air those in the Body of Christ will forever be with the Lord Jesus (1 Thess.4:17). So when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth to reign from the throne of David all those in the Body of Christ will be with Him and will reign with Him (Rev.3:21).

It will be at that time when those in the Body will judge the world (1 Cor.6:2).

Then when the Messianic kingdom comes to an end that kingdom will be delivered up to the Father (1 Cor.15:24) and all believers will be transferred to the heavenly kingdom, the kingdom where people in their flesh and blood bodies cannot enter (1 Cor.15:50).

According to your ideas when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth those in the body of Christ will not be with Him even though Paul says that they will be with Him forever after meeting Him in the air.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Try reading Hebrews 11, and then tell me what you see.

I see nothing there which contradict the following words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law that only "faith" was required for their salvation:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

If it took more than faith for the Jews who lived under the law to be saved then why would the Lord Jesus tell them that His words are spirit and they are life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

I see nothing in Hebrews 11 which proves that it took more than His words to be saved. But according to your strange ideas the words of the Lord Jesus were not enough to bring life to those who believed because His words were insufficient by themselves to bring life to the Jews who lived under the law.

The Jews who lived under the law were born of God when they believed in the Lord Jesus:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

If we are to believe your misguided ideas we must throw our reason to the wind and somehow trick our mind into believing that even though they were born of God they were not yet saved.

You may not like it, but the Jews knew exactly what was expected of them.

James 2:21-22 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You overlook what James wrote in the first chapter because he made it plain that faith is sufficient for salvation:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Of course the Jews who lived under the law knew exactly what was expected of them in order to be saved because the Savior Himself told them the following:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life" (Jn.6:47).​

You think that you know more about salvation that the Savior Himself knows!

 

[glorydaz]

If more than faith was required from the Jews who lived under the law then why did the Lord Jesus mention only "believing" as the only requirement to receive everlasting life?:

Because He was speaking to circumcised people who were offering sacrifices for their sins according to the Law. What they lacked was faith. Heb. 4:2

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because He was speaking to circumcised people who were offering sacrifices for their sins according to the Law. What they lacked was faith. Heb. 4:2

So you are saying that in order to be saved the Jews had to offer sacrifices as well as believe?

If that is true then why did the Lord Jesus say that it is His words which are spirit and are life?:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to your ideas the words of the Lord Jesus were not enough to bring spiritual life to those who believed because His words were insufficient by themselves to bring spiritual life to the Jews who lived under the law.

You also failed to address the fact that the Jews who lived under the law were "born of God" when they believed in His name:

"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (Jn.1:11-13).​

Do you deny that once a Jew was born of God he was saved?

 

[Aimiel]

So according to you God gives all people faith but despite that not all people have faith.

Actually, it's according to Scripture:

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

God has shown everyone, but not everyone accepts knowledge of God or holds to faith in God. Many reject Him, whom God refers to as fools.

 

[Aimiel]

Aimiel,

Why Paul?

Where the Twelve not trained by the Lord Himself and then specifically told to go and preach the gospel?

I believe The Great Commission is for the whole Body of Christ.

Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.​

Why didn't Jesus' prophecy come to pass?

Clete

I believe it did, for each of them. I don't believe that a single one of the apostles went to all the cities of Jerusalem before they were martyred.

 

[Aimiel]

Really? Were all those things done on the quiet, you think?

I don't see any such miracles or any of the acts of the apostles reported in any history books, no. It's Christians who did such works and they're not for a show, it's God's Sovereign Will these things take place under.

Paul did not say those things would continue, and we don't see them continuing.

He didn't say that they wouldn't. Seeing isn't believing. Believing is seeing.

We may call the saints together to pray for the sick...I'll grant you that.

It's laying hands upon the sick believing that they'll recover that brings healing.

But, no healers to get any glory.

Amen.

We have the Scripture for our knowledge and wisdom.

God didn't write about every soul in His Word. He gave us the ability to move in His Gifts to bring to each individual what is needful as He wills. His Gifts and Ministries are for all.

We have no need for some man to claim he has a word from the Lord.

Okay. They're there, on the table in front of you, you don't have to have them; but they're there, nonetheless.

We have a direct line through the Spirit via the Holy Bible.

Getting a Word from God or moving in His Power or Authority has no comparison on this earth. If you haven't experienced it: you haven't lived.

Teachers use the Scripture.

So do Apostles, Prophets, Pastors and Evangelists.

We have no prophets predicting the future.

Prophets don't predict. They speak forth Words from The Lord. Sometimes they're taken at face-value, sometimes they're tossed aside.

The only ones who cast out demons are the Catholics and they have enough demons on their own payroll.

I've cast out demons, but I'm not Catholic. I've also given prophecies, words of knowledge and done many things you wouldn't believe, even if you saw them with your own eyes. Looking down on the moves of The Holy Spirit isn't how you come to The Lord or begin to grow your faith and begin to do His Works. You can stay behind and believe what little of His Word you've accepted and follow the doctrines you think hold Truth; I'll keep going where The Lord leads me and following His Spirit. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

I've cast out demons, but I'm not Catholic. I've also given prophecies, words of knowledge and done many things you wouldn't believe, even if you saw them with your own eyes.

And RIGHT THERE, Aimiel, is the boasting that Paul says is EXCLUDED by the Law of Faith.


And it's exactly why signs and wonders are strictly for a particular period of time.