ECT Principles of Spiritual Growth

[Aimiel]

Yet, you don't drink poison or pick up deadly snakes, do you?

Things changed when Stephen was stoned. Israel had been given enough time, and the Apostles recognized that.

Now the Gospel of Grace (Paul's Gospel) is going out to the world, and that doesn't give us power to drink deadly drinks or pick up deadly snakes, or cast out demons, or raise the dead.

Why not? Because you say so? I don't see The Holy Scriptures taking away God's Gifts to His Body. He is The Giver, not one to take back what He's given. We're going to do the works Jesus did and greater, because He is in The Bosom of The Father, ever living to make intercession for us. He is expecting until His enemies be made His Footstool. I don't believe that is going to happen all on it's own. God works through people of faith. It takes faith to put enemies under His Feet. Jesus bought us the victory over Death, Hell and the grave. We have to get up off our 'brains' and enforce that victory in order to put the enemies of God where they belong: groveling at His Feet. One day, we shall. Jesus said so. I believe Him. I don't believe in your imaginary 'dispensation' having taken away what God promised... especially after seeing the things that dispensationalism has forbidden having taken place in front of my very eyes. Sorry. I've seen too much, done too much and been to too many Heavenly places to ever doubt God's Abilities, in spite of the majority of The Body of Christ having little or no faith in Him.

 

[glorydaz]

Why not? Because you say so? I don't see The Holy Scriptures taking away God's Gifts to His Body. He is The Giver, not one to take back what He's given.

Why the anger? I asked if you are seeing people drinking poison, raising the dead, etc. today? What we did see was those things fading away. We saw it with Paul, himself, as a matter of fact, where he was no longer able to heal. Phil. 2:27

He even addresses it here....concerning the sign gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.​

We're going to do the works Jesus did and greater,

When?

because He is in The Bosom of The Father, ever living to make intercession for us. He is expecting until His enemies be made His Footstool. I don't believe that is going to happen all on it's own. God works through people of faith. It takes faith to put enemies under His Feet. Jesus bought us the victory over Death, Hell and the grave. We have to get up off our 'brains' and enforce that victory in order to put the enemies of God where they belong: groveling at His Feet.

"Groveling at His Feet"? I don't see preaching the Gospel of Salvation as groveling. It isn't miraculous signs and wonders that converts man, if that's what you're counting on.

One day, we shall. Jesus said so. I believe Him. I don't believe in your imaginary 'dispensation' having taken away what God promised... especially after seeing the things that dispensationalism has forbidden having taken place in front of my very eyes. Sorry. I've seen too much, done too much and been to too many Heavenly places to ever doubt God's Abilities, in spite of the majority of The Body of Christ having little or no faith in Him.

Again, why are you so angry? Understanding who is being addressed in the Bible is the only way to know what God wants from us. We are not in the time of parting the Red Sea, or being fed manna from heaven. We are in the Dispensation of Grace, whether you know that or not.

First, though, you have to understand which Gospel you're preaching. Then you have to figure out why we are not in the age of miracles right now. Being angry isn't a good thing, is it? Is that what our Lord expects from us? I don't doubt your faith, but there is room to grow for all of us.

 

[Aimiel]

Why the anger?

I wasn't angry. You may need to brush up on your mindreading skills.

I asked if you are seeing people drinking poison, raising the dead, etc. today?

Today? No.

What we did see was those things fading away.

I don't see such.

We saw it with Paul, himself, as a matter of fact, where he was no longer able to heal. Phil. 2:27

He said that he left someone sick. I don't see that as stating that God had taken back the gift of healing. I have no idea why you do.

He even addresses it here....concerning the sign gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.​

He was speaking of perfection, which isn't possible in a fallen world. We aren't anywhere near perfect. He will reign over this imperfect earth for 1,000 years with a rod of iron and bring peace and make it the paradise He designed it to be, but will still put every single element that He created to destruction with fervent heat just before He brings forth the New Heaven and New Earth which WILL be perfect. Until then: we will prophesy, heal, deliver and give words of knowledge and words of wisdom, etc., etc., as He directs.

When (will we do the works He did and greater)?

When we get up off of our 'brains' and do what He commanded.

"Groveling at His Feet"? I don't see preaching the Gospel of Salvation as groveling. It isn't miraculous signs and wonders that converts man, if that's what you're counting on.

Certainly not; but He gave these gifts to us anyway.

Understanding who is being addressed in the Bible is the only way to know what God wants from us. We are not in the time of parting the Red Sea, or being fed manna from heaven. We are in the Dispensation of Grace, whether you know that or not.

I know what grace brings. It brings us far more than the Old Covenants did. We have His very Presence in us and He can do far more than we have yet begun to imagine.

First, though, you have to understand which Gospel you're preaching. Then you have to figure out why we are not in the age of miracles right now. Being angry isn't a good thing, is it? Is that what our Lord expects from us? I don't doubt your faith, but there is room to grow for all of us.

Amen, but projecting anger onto others isn't something we need to try to make use of. Mindreading isn't one of the gifts He gives. I understand The Gospel, having studied, preached and prophesied about It for over 50 years. I'll keep believing God, but I don't believe that He's taken away ANY of the nine gifts of The Holy Spirit or any of the Five-fold Ministry Gifts either. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Why not? Because you say so?

I don't believe in your imaginary 'dispensation' having taken away what God promised... especially after seeing the things that dispensationalism has forbidden having taken place in front of my very eyes. Sorry. I've seen too much, done too much and been to too many Heavenly places to ever doubt God's Abilities, in spite of the majority of The Body of Christ having little or no faith in Him.

I wasn't angry. You may need to brush up on your mindreading skills.

I don't have to be a mindreader to see your anger. And what of the charges you make "imaginary dispensation having taken away what God promised"? What about this statement, "after seeing the things that dispensationalism has forbidden having taken place in front of my very eyes."?

There is no anger there?

Sorry, I don't believe you, and I'm quite positive you don't understand what Paul means by the term dispensation, or you wouldn't be making the charges you have.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

 

[glorydaz]

I don't see that as stating that God had taken back the gift of healing.

Because we walk by faith not by sight. If healing was still a gift given to men, then man could boast, and boasting is excluded by the LAW OF FAITH. Romans 3:27

1 Corinthians 13:8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.​

I have no idea why you do.He was speaking of perfection, which isn't possible in a fallen world. We aren't anywhere near perfect.

When that which is perfect is come refers to the completed Scripture. Paul had not yet written down all the Lord had given him. Only part had been revealed and written down.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.​

This list from Eph. is an example of the change that came about as more was revealed to Paul. Notice no more miracles...no more sign gifts at all. It was the Jews who required a sign.

Eph. 1:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;​

 

[Aimiel]

I don't have to be a mindreader to see your anger.

Okay, I'll have to call it a good imagination, then.

And what of the charges you make "imaginary dispensation having taken away what God promised"? What about this statement, "after seeing the things that dispensationalism has forbidden having taken place in front of my very eyes."?

There is no anger there?

No. I'm merely telling you what I see, I'm not angry about anything; I cannot imagine why you're projecting feelings onto me, either.

Sorry, I don't believe you, and I'm quite positive you don't understand what Paul means by the term dispensation, or you wouldn't be making the charges you have.

I'm sorry about you're lack of belief; but there's nothing I can do about that. I understand fine. Your understanding and my understanding aren't congruent.

1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

Ephesians 3:2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

You're reading a word (dispensation) as meaning that a time of NO SUCH THING AS GOD MOVING WITH ANY POWER, rather than as meaning that Paul was told to preach The Gospel to those who need God's Grace and Mercy. To me this means that you have only a 'form' of Godliness but deny The Power thereof. Sorry, but I have to turn away from you and your false teaching, since it doesn't line up with The Holy Scriptures. No anger. No malice. No feelings for you at all (beyond pity) but I will continue to pray for you just like I pray for all those who attend church and learn things ABOUT God rather than come into a relationship with The Living God and come to have hands lain upon them that they might receive His Presence and His Power in their lives forevermore. Until that day, may God continue to draw you and woo you into His Presence. :thumb:

 

[Aimiel]

Because we walk by faith not by sight. If healing was still a gift given to men, then man could boast, and boasting is excluded by the LAW OF FAITH. Romans 3:27

Hogwash. No one I've ever laid hands on has ever given me reason to boast; except for The Power that God uses to heal. He is The Healer. Not me. Not Oral Roberts. Not Kenneth Hagin. Not Billy Graham. In point of fact: I've never seen anyone brag that they ever healed anyone. God uses whomsoever He will to do His Will. He does whatever He wants and doesn't need anyone's permission. He does prefer to use those who rely solely upon His Word and not anything they've ever seen or even seen happen by their laying hands upon anyone in the past. In fact: I've never seen Him move the same way twice. He loves to maintain His Mystery.

1 Corinthians 13:8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.​

I agree: when perfection comes all these things will pass away. Certainly knowledge hasn't passed away, we don't know Him like we're known yet. We will. When perfection comes.

When that which is perfect is come refers to the completed Scripture. Paul had not yet written down all the Lord had given him. Only part had been revealed and written down.

What he meant was, when we know everything we won't need knowledge any more. When we see the fulfillment of every prophecy, we won't need to prophesy. When we all speak the same language, tongues will cease.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.​

You are perfect. I'm perfect. But ONLY in God's Eyes. Until we're perfect and live in in-corruptible bodies, all theses gifts will still be in operation, as He wills.

This list from Eph. is an example of the change that came about as more was revealed to Paul. Notice no more miracles...no more sign gifts at all. It was the Jews who required a sign.

Yes, and even today, there are Christians who are looking for signs. It isn't by looking for signs that they come. It's by looking for Christ that they come. He comes in dreams and visions. He gives good gifts to His Children, even though you can't believe that He does.

Eph. 1:11-14 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;​

Yup. We haven't yet come to perfection because we haven't done the works, let alone greater works.

 

[glorydaz]

Okay, I'll have to call it a good imagination, then. No. I'm merely telling you what I see, I'm not angry about anything; I cannot imagine why you're projecting feelings onto me, either.

Just declaring what I see from what you've written.

I'm sorry about you're lack of belief; but there's nothing I can do about that.

What? You can't lay hands on me and cure me of my lack of belief? :shocked:

No, but there you are boasting...comparing my "lack of belief" to your own great miracle working belief. :AMR:

I understand fine. Your understanding and my understanding aren't congruent.You're reading a word (dispensation) as meaning that a time of NO SUCH THING AS GOD MOVING WITH ANY POWER,

That's simply another false accusation. I'll presume you don't know any better.

The GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. We preach it, and God's POWER is made manifest in those who believe. Not through the foolishness of men speaking in tongues, or laying on of hands, or claiming they can raise the dead, but by being ambassadors for Christ....through preaching the Gospel.

2 Corinthians 5:20 [Full Chapter]
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.​

To me this means that you have only a 'form' of Godliness but deny The Power thereof. Sorry, but I have to turn away from you and your false teaching, since it doesn't line up with The Holy Scriptures.

There you go again...boasting in what you claim to have that I don't.

No anger. No malice.

BUT, for sure, an inordinate PRIDE in your own understanding.

No feelings for you at all (beyond pity) but I will continue to pray for you just like I pray for all those who attend church and learn things ABOUT God rather than come into a relationship with The Living God and come to have hands lain upon them that they might receive His Presence and His Power in their lives forevermore. Until that day, may God continue to draw you and woo you into His Presence. :thumb:

Yep, your beliefs are all emotion driven. This is why Paul says to put off childish things. He was speaking of the sign gifts...which make you feel "His Presence".

Paul warns the Corinthian Church...BABES...those who were taken up with the sign gifts.

1 Cor. 13:10-11 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.​

And Paul elaborates here....henceforth be no more children. No sign gift, tongues, or healers here.

Eph. 1:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:​

 

[Aimiel]

Just declaring what I see from what you've written.

It's still projecting, but I assure you: I'm not the least bit angry. Since I came back to TOL you're the first person on here to engage me in a conversation that spurs my interest. This is exciting. I love talking about my beliefs and having them challenged always increases my faith muscles.

What? You can't lay hands on me and cure me of my lack of belief? :shocked:

\o/

No, but there you are boasting...comparing my "lack of belief" to your own great miracle working belief. :AMR:

Sorry I appeared to you to be boasting, but I realize that even my own faith is a gift from The Gift Giver. I seek Him, not gifts. I have faith in Him ONLY because He gave it to me. It's His Faith. It's His Word. It's His Blood. I'm just a witness. If I witness in error, it's on me. If I witness Him doing something miraculous: it's on Him. If I shut my mouth: I'm in trouble. I HAVE to speak and tell The Wonders of My Lord and My God. He is so Good, all the time!

The GOSPEL IS THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION. We preach it, and God's POWER is made manifest in those who believe. Not through the foolishness of men speaking in tongues, or laying on of hands, or claiming they can raise the dead, but by being ambassadors for Christ....through preaching the Gospel.

Amen. He gave us gifts and we should use them, but it's The Gospel that saves. Gifts are for the work of the ministry. We don't need to lay them down simply because someone erroneously preaches that they're passed away. He's The God of the living. His Gifts aren't dead any more than we are dead or the ones who've preceded us into glory are dead.

There you go again...boasting in what you claim to have that I don't.

As I said above: I don't have anything to boast about. Sorry you took it that way. God is at work in me and I have to tell about His Great Love!

Yep, your beliefs are all emotion driven. This is why Paul says to put off childish things. He was speaking of the sign gifts...which make you feel "His Presence".

I don't buy that. I don't 'feel' His Presence any more or less when seeing Him move in the Gifts and Ministries of His Holy Spirit. One has to stop looking to emotions to leave behind the childish things, dear. That's what Paul was talking about: becoming mature in your faith, not abandoning His Truths.

Paul warns the Corinthian Church...BABES...those who were taken up with the sign gifts.

He never told them to stop or that The Gifts and Ministries of The Holy Spirit were done. Only erroneous teaching would do that.

And Paul elaborates here....henceforth be no more children. No sign gift, tongues, or healers here.

Eph. 1:14-15 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:​

Yes, one of the 'wind' doctrines is: Dispensationalism, which does away with The Power of God. Think about it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have faith in Him ONLY because He gave it to me.

So you think that the LORD gives faith to some but does not give it to others?

In other words, he only wants some people to be saved?

 

[northwye]

There are a number of New Testament scriptures which predict an apostasy, or departure from sound doctrine to happen. How is an apostasy defined? An apostasy is promoting doctrines which do not agree with New Testament scripture.

So,the principles of spiritual growth would advocate a growth out of false doctrines into a belief in the Truth as stated by New Testament scriptures. James 1: 18 says "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

In II Peter 2: 2 right after he warns of false prophets, he says "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of."

The Protestant Reformation, making use of the Textus Receptus of Erasmus, returned to the Truth of justification by faith. Much of Reformation Theology - which returned to the Truth of the Gospel of Christ - is found in the Commentaries of John Calvin, though after the death of Calvin some of his successors got into a more systematic kind of man made theology called five point Calvinism.

But - along came dispensationalism in the 19th century and it opposes that Reformation Theology, calling it Replacement Theology.

Dispensationalism was "systematic theology" from its beginning, with its postulate that the ekklesia or Church or the Body of Christ, the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 15-16, is merely a parenthesis while Old Covenant Israel - the multitude and not the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5 - as Israel after the flesh (I Corinthians 10: 18) - remains the chosen people of God. By "Systematic Theology" I mean the creation of a system of man-made theology which agrees with the assumptions of men, that is, its founders, John Darby, C.I. Scofield and Lewis S. Chafer.

 

[Aimiel]

So you think that the LORD gives faith to some but does not give it to others?

In other words, he only wants some people to be saved?

No, I believe that He shows Himself to everyone who looks for Him with all their heart.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, I believe that He shows Himself to everyone who looks for Him with all their heart.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

But you said that you received faith because the LORD gave it to you. Since not all people have faith then the LORD did not give them faith like he did you. Why?

 

[Aimiel]

But you said that you received faith because the LORD gave it to you. Since not all people have faith then the LORD did not give them faith like he did you. Why?

I believe that the same faith is available to all. How much of God that we find and how close we come to Him is up to us. He said that we'd find Him when we seek and search for Him with all of our heart. He didn't say that only some could, He said that we would, meaning those who seek: find.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I believe that the same faith is available to all.

But you said that the LORD gave you faith. Why would He give some faith but not others?

Especially since He wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth?

 

[glorydaz]

It's still projecting, but I assure you: I'm not the least bit angry. Since I came back to TOL you're the first person on here to engage me in a conversation that spurs my interest. This is exciting. I love talking about my beliefs and having them challenged always increases my faith muscles.\o/Sorry I appeared to you to be boasting, but I realize that even my own faith is a gift from The Gift Giver. I seek Him, not gifts. I have faith in Him ONLY because He gave it to me. It's His Faith. It's His Word. It's His Blood. I'm just a witness. If I witness in error, it's on me. If I witness Him doing something miraculous: it's on Him. If I shut my mouth: I'm in trouble. I HAVE to speak and tell The Wonders of My Lord and My God. He is so Good, all the time!Amen. He gave us gifts and we should use them, but it's The Gospel that saves.

Perhaps you need to define what you mean by miraculous.

Gifts are for the work of the ministry. We don't need to lay them down simply because someone erroneously preaches that they're passed away.

Nor should we hold on to something that is no longer called for. As I noted, we don't see members of the body of Christ raising the dead, or drinking poison, etc. Why is that?

He's The God of the living. His Gifts aren't dead any more than we are dead or the ones who've preceded us into glory are dead.As I said above: I don't have anything to boast about. Sorry you took it that way. God is at work in me and I have to tell about His Great Love!I don't buy that. I don't 'feel' His Presence any more or less when seeing Him move in the Gifts and Ministries of His Holy Spirit. One has to stop looking to emotions to leave behind the childish things, dear. That's what Paul was talking about: becoming mature in your faith, not abandoning His Truths.He never told them to stop or that The Gifts and Ministries of The Holy Spirit were done. Only erroneous teaching would do that.Yes, one of the 'wind' doctrines is: Dispensationalism, which does away with The Power of God. Think about it.

That's simply untrue. As believers, we recognize that God has ALL THE POWER, and man has none...just as it was meant to be. We are confident that HE WILL PERFORM....not we will perform.

 

[Aimiel]

But you said that the LORD gave you faith. Why would He give some faith but not others?

Especially since He wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth?

I don't know what you don't understand. Maybe you should speak about what it is you don't understand. I told you that I believe that God gives the same faith to everyone. Some people seek and search for Him harder than others. Some people have no relationship with Him their whole life. Some people have knowledge ABOUT Him but never come into a One-on-one relationship with Him, maybe because they don't believe The Holy Ghost is alive or maybe they just think of God as living in the sky somewhere and not in their heart. I don't know. Some people come into a thriving and dynamic relationship with God and talk to Him constantly and hear and recognize His Voice. It's the best thing there is on this earth. I don't know why so many who know ABOUT God never come to meet Him. You'll have to ask one of them. God is available. Gifts are available. Faith is available. Seek Him.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know what you don't understand.

I made myself clear. You said that God gave you faith. Since God wants all people to come to the knowledge of the truth and he gave you faith then why doesn't he give all people faith?

I told you that I believe that God gives the same faith to everyone.

You are totally confused. If God gives all people faith then why do not all people have faith?:

"And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith" (2 Thess.3:2).​

 

[glorydaz]

I don't know what you don't understand.

Jerry will continue to ask the same question over and over.

You'd best see if you can figure out what he's saying. :chuckle:



I would say faith is both....His and ours.

Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

 

[way 2 go]

I believe that the same faith is available to all. How much of God that we find and how close we come to Him is up to us. He said that we'd find Him when we seek and search for Him with all of our heart. He didn't say that only some could, He said that we would, meaning those who seek: find.

I believe that the same light is available to all.


Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."