Pope on Climate Change

[genuineoriginal]

:rotfl: How does your sort not see the massive cash flow on the side of fossil fuel production? The comparison is just ludicrous.

We see it just fine. We also see that the Oil companies are not putting up any real fight against carbon credits, since they have ways of profiting from them, too.

We don't worship the earth as a god (gaia) the way you liberals do, so using efficient fuel that comes from the earth is no problem for us.
On the other hand, the liberals want to get rid of dams, currently the most efficient producer of electric power, and get rid of nuclear power plants, which have the potential to supply the entire world's power needs at an affordable price, and get rid of fossil fuels, which will last another 250 years at a reasonable depletion rate of doubling every 10 years from current production.

No, liberals want to harness the wind with expensive turbines and harness the sun with expensive photovoltaic cells.

Why do liberals want to do things so far removed from common sense?

Oh, right. Because liberals have no common sense.

 

[Alate_One]

We see it just fine. We also see that the Oil companies are not putting up any real fight against carbon credits, since they have ways of profiting from them, too.

Not much compared to unrestricted fossil fuel burning. That's why they're funding your beloved "skeptics".

Carbon credits are questionable as a tool to reduce emissions. Carbon taxes are simpler and more effective.

We don't worship the earth as a god (gaia) the way you liberals do, so using efficient fuel that comes from the earth is no problem for us.

I'm certainly not worshiping the earth, but I do see it as a gift of God. It's the height of arrogance to trash what's been gifted to us as a home purely for the sake of another almighty (the dollar).

On the other hand, the liberals want to get rid of dams, currently the most efficient producer of electric power, and get rid of nuclear power plants, which have the potential to supply the entire world's power needs at an affordable price, and get rid of fossil fuels, which will last another 250 years at a reasonable depletion rate of doubling every 10 years from current production.

It'd be nice if you had a conversation with *me* instead of these nameless "liberals". I would like to see more nuclear power, especially thorium reactors since we have a lot more thorium than uranium and it's less likely to be turned into weapons.

But nuclear power is expensive and most companies don't want to be liable for accidents so government has to get involved. And we know how you conservatives hate government and government spending.

Existing dams are fine. The problem is at least in the US nearly every location that can be dammed has already been dammed. Dams are not without cost though, they've caused untold damage to fisheries in the pacific northwest. Maybe you just hate fishermen?

A few dams could use to be removed due to that. Bottom like is, removal or no, dams can't be increased to solve our fossil fuel problem.

No, liberals want to harness the wind with expensive turbines and harness the sun with expensive photovoltaic cells.

Photovoltaic cells are getting cheaper and cheaper and wind power is basically on par with a lot of fossil fuels.

The dropping cost of solar is so well known it has a name, the Swanson Effect or law.

Comparison of power sources. Cost per Kwh.

Spoiler

Why do liberals want to do things so far removed from common sense?

Your "common sense" is based on faulty reasoning, misunderstaning and outright science denial. So yes, rationality is pretty removed from your version of "common sense".

Oh, right. Because liberals have no common sense.

And conservatives like yourself have no sense to see that science isn't some giant conspiracy against you.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Carbon credits are questionable as a tool to reduce emissions. Carbon taxes are simpler and more effective.

Carbon credits and Carbon taxes won't affect climate change one bit, but they will impoverish the masses and enrich the super-rich.

Just another scheme to transfer the wealth from the many to the few.

Now if you climate changers had anything constructive to offer, there wouldn't be such a backlash against your lousy ideals.

I loved your distorted graphs that ignore government subsidies for photovoltaic and wind energy and high taxes and many laws restricting production for fossil fuels.

Remove those, and the picture you are trying to paint will be much different.

 

[Alate_One]

Carbon credits and Carbon taxes won't affect climate change one bit, but they will impoverish the masses and enrich the super-rich.

How would carbon taxes enrich the super rich?

The point is incorporating the cost that all of us are already paying in climate change and ocean acidification into the price of fossil fuels. By making the costs more equal, renewables will be more competitive cost-wise.

Now if you climate changers had anything constructive to offer, there wouldn't be such a backlash against your lousy ideals.

It's amazing that you only consider something "constructive" when it agrees with what you already think.

I loved your distorted graphs that ignore government subsidies for photovoltaic and wind energy and high taxes and many laws restricting production for fossil fuels.

There's far more subsidies for fossil fuels, in absolute monetary terms than any renewable.

 

[Stripe]

I guess you meant the only on topic statement you made?

Nope. One of the other on-topic statements. The first one, in fact.

Broeker Prediction in 1975 vs. observations.

Temperature fluctuations are not adverse (or even certain).

 

[genuineoriginal]

How would carbon taxes enrich the super rich?

You need to get out more.

_____
Al Gore Set To Become First “Carbon Billionaire”
The New York Times has lifted the lid on how Al Gore stands to benefit to the tune of billions of dollars if the carbon tax proposals he is pushing come to fruition in the United States, while documenting how he has already lined his pockets on the back of exaggerated fearmongering about global warming.
. . .
_____​

 

[rexlunae]

Most of the denialists here aren't open to persuasion, at least right now. You can't fix willful ignorance with a better argument. Hopefully the Pope's words will get a few people to heed the evidence, because we really are running out of years to do something about it, but I think it's going to have to be over the objections of many of the people here.

 

[Stripe]

Most of the warmist fanatics aren't open to persuasion, at least right now. You can't fix willful ignorance with a better argument. Hopefully the Pope's words will get a few people to heed the evidence, because we really are running out of years to do something about it, but I think it's going to have to be over the objections of many of the people here.

 

[rexlunae]

Most of the warmist fanatics aren't open to persuasion, at least right now. You can't fix willful ignorance with a better argument. Hopefully the Pope's words will get a few people to heed the evidence, because we really are running out of years to do something about it, but I think it's going to have to be over the objections of many of the people here.

Case in point. Thanks, Stripe.

 

[Quetzal]

Most of the denialists here aren't open to persuasion, at least right now. You can't fix willful ignorance with a better argument.

This, right here, summarizes it nicely. I find these conversations interesting for one big reason. The creativity the posters demonstrate who are looking and digging for excuses to dismiss an academic source. Most of these excuses hold no weight, of course, except among others who do not see a problem.

Hopefully the Pope's words will get a few people to heed the evidence, because we really are running out of years to do something about it, but I think it's going to have to be over the objections of many of the people here.

This comic comes to mind every time:

 

[Sitamun]

This, right here, summarizes it nicely. I find these conversations interesting for one big reason. The creativity the posters demonstrate who are looking and digging for excuses to dismiss an academic source. Most of these excuses hold no weight, of course, except among others who do not see a problem.


This comic comes to mind every time:

I feel exactly the same way. For years I've been wondering just what the climate change deniers are so scared of? If it is a hoax then what? What will be so bad about turning away from fossil fuels? Living more in harmony with the planet? Why do they fight it? I mean c'mon, let the liberals do their thing and if it turns out you were right you can rub it in our face for at least decades. C'mon, it's win/win for you guys!

 

[Quetzal]

I feel exactly the same way. For years I've been wondering just what the climate change deniers are so scared of? If it is a hoax then what? What will be so bad about turning away from fossil fuels? Living more in harmony with the planet? Why do they fight it? I mean c'mon, let the liberals do their thing and if it turns out you were right you can rub it in our face for at least decades. C'mon, it's win/win for you guys!

There is nothing to really be afraid of. Many deniers are pretty anti-government/conspiracy theorists to begin with, so there is no real reasoning with them. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain, but no one wants to hear about that.

 

[This Charming Manc]

The logic sees to be if liberals are for it we are against it just in case.

There is nothing to really be afraid of. Many deniers are pretty anti-government/conspiracy theorists to begin with, so there is no real reasoning with them. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain, but no one wants to hear about that.

 

[Quetzal]

The logic sees to be if liberals are for it we are against it just in case.

That is politics as a whole. I mean, if there is a legitimate reason to not move forward with these kind of R&D, I am all ears. But no one has given me one yet.

FYI: "Nu-uh!" is not a legitimate reason.

 

[Alate_One]

I think the denier position is less a knee jerk response as a resistance to anything that threatens their ideology of absolutely free markets and the uselessness of government.

We've seen the same complaints whenever the need for environmental regulation becomes obvious. The belief that free markets can fix everything is just as bad as the communist ideals of government making everyone equal.

What is actually workable is something in the middle but the right wing wants to think the "middle" is whatever they want.

 

[genuineoriginal]

This comic comes to mind every time:

On the other hand, what if the mantra that "CO₂ causes global warming" is a big hoax and we destroy civilization with carbon taxes without creating a better world?

 

[Quetzal]

On the other hand, what if the mantra that "CO₂ causes global warming" is a big hoax and we destroy civilization with carbon taxes without creating a better world?

Carbon taxes? Destruction of civ- what are you talking about?

 

[genuineoriginal]

I feel exactly the same way. For years I've been wondering just what the climate change deniers are so scared of?

I lived through the time when gasoline went from 80 cents a gallon to over 4 dollars a gallon.
Do you think I had nothing to be scared of then?

The proposals for carbon taxes will end up causing the same 500% increase in energy costs, but there will not be a natural disaster to blame it on.

It will be done by people with good intentions who rely on a poor computer model of the atmosphere that uses cooked data.

 

[Quetzal]

It will be done by people with good intentions who rely on a poor computer model of the atmosphere that uses cooked data.

Source, please.

Also, you do highlight a glaring weakness of those who are against the exploration of renewable energy in relation to climate change. It isn't a silver bullet and the change will not be instantaneous. I can foresee us making sizable investments in an area of renewable energy and when the first hurricane knocks on Florida's door I can see the right wing screaming "SEE! IT DIDN'T HELP AT ALL!"

In short, no one is claiming a single source will fix everything and it will take years to see a measurable difference.

 

[CabinetMaker]

San Francisco is already polluted from within...anything from China is probably freshening up the joint.

Not sure if that's an honest statement or sarcasm.

From the Washington Post.