Paul vs. Jesus

[Gnostic]

Lovejoy: "But I am more inclined to speak to a more receptive audience, rather than crack heads with the hardcore of a 2000 year-old heresy."

When you say "more receptive audience," do you mean those who will sooner agree with you? Actually I don't waste time talking with those who agree with me, what's the use of that? It's easy to be right by choosing your preferred audience, but it takes far more courage to go out into the real world to see if your doctrines can stand.

And, what to you is a 2000 year-old heresy, is to me the real teaching of Jesus. You see, people don't rise from the grave, do they? According to Acts, even Jesus' disciples were raising people from the dead. So I ask you, why does this no longer happen? Therefore, since we have said from the beginning that men (Jesus the man included) do not physically rise from the grave, and the clear evidence shows that they don't, then is it not more likely that in fact the orthodox Christian teachings are the heresies and the Gnostics were right? You see, we have both the scripture and the scientific evidence, you have only the scripture.

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[Granite]

Thanks. I started to right this huge, properly cited and quoted Scriptural argument when I realized that a gnostic would not even recognize the legitimacy of most of the books that I would have to use, and then just ploped that post down instead. What are you going to do? It isn't even that important, as the nature of Christ is not subject to our logic or even our exegesis. Rather, Jesus is only subject to Himself and His own nature. My best mental picture of Him (in gnostic's case, a picture apparently of nothing) will have no impact on His reality whatsoever. And it will not alter His redemptive power. The only issue, then, is in what state will we spend eternity: as the invisible force put forth by Gnostic, or as the Spiritual Body that I see in Paul's writings?

Exactly. This is the difference. Skeptics do not accept the validity of scripture, and Christians prove the Bible with the Bible.

 

[Gnostic]

Lovejoy: "The only issue, then, is in what state will we spend eternity: as the invisible force put forth by Gnostic, or as the Spiritual Body that I see in Paul's writings?"

Now, now, Lovejoy, you seem to be a highly intelligent creature but it appears your memory could use a little oil. Have you already forgotten than I, even I, am the one who suggested that there will be heaps of orgies in heaven? Now how in heavens name do you accomplish that without a body? It's cases like this where the Christian mindset loses all contact with reality and creates its own logic. No, the Gnostics do not believe that people will be invisible spirits or ghosts or anything like that. Rather, we will have form (not unlike the Pillsbury doughman, hehe), and you can see it, touch it, even kick it if you really must. If my scripture which mentions "invisible spirit" has confused you, then that is normal. My scriptures were designed to confuse those who drop in for a peak. Now note that the celestial body is invisible to human perception. It is "felt" or "known" but not directly seen. Does that make sense? Now the difference between my version of the celestial body and yours is that mine is actually made of a kind of pure spirit and yours is a kind of pure flesh. Mine has no atoms, yours does. Therefore mine is able to become anything it wants. It can become real flesh for a moment and then later pure Invisible Light capable of circling a whole medium size galaxy in under 4.77 of a nanosecond. Well it's sort of like the Angelic body really. Hey, actually it IS an Angelic body, lol. But my dear forum friend, how do you have any hope of doing such wild things while you're schlepping a permanent flesh body around? I guess the most excitement such an immortal body can get is to throw itself off a very high cliff without getting hurt. Well that's a start I guess. If, however, you're doing that, and you happen to notice something streaking through the higher atmosphere like comet, well it'll probably be some Gnostic taking his new celestial body out for a test run.

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[Agape4Robin]

Ouote=Gnostic: Greetings Robin,

I have to tell you, your new Avatar does you great justice. You are unquestionably the Goddess of these forums. And while the other lesser gods and goddesses present here are in a constant state of profound slumber, you are indeed very awake. So by all means please continue to go about doing Father's business, and you will make the Holy Angels very happy.

Hello Gnostic-
While you appear to be charming, please let me state for the record That I am not nor do I consider myself to be a "godess". If by awake, you mean feisty, well you got that right! :chuckle: I am not out to impress anyone, just want to tell what Christ has done for me, and tell the good news about Jesus Christ. And if I can brighten your day too, well then, good for me! :bannana:

Now, you said: "The use of extra-biblical "documentation" does not prove your arguement."

I'm the opinion that nothing whatsoever can be absolutely proven, ever.

Then perhaps, I am wasting my time....... :think:

You said: "Or did you make these up too?"

I believe nothing can be made up by human Mind. Every new idea is inspired by the Divine. Consciousness does not have its source in the brain but rather from above. God is the transmitter, and the brain is simply an inferior biological receiver. The communication is transported through the Divine Quantum Circuit. This method of communication is not perfect, it's fuzzy. Sometimes the animal mind hijacks the pure message, and corrupts it. Like the atomic particles, we are all connected to the One. If one dares to take full control of his/her mind, then a Son or Daughter of God is born (the Silver Chord is severed), and a new creation is emanated. Upon death, rather than being thrown into hell for recycling, the new creation sits beside God's throne for some very serious fun. Now what does your Bible say on the matter?

You almost had me there for a moment.....but then........you veer off. :WA:
While I agree with the idea of how our finite mind corrupts the "divine message" or at least has the ability to do so, you misunderstand how one becomes a new creation. It is not an act of the will or thinking ones self to be "born again" with a new spirit that makes it so. Now bear with me, I will try to put it the best way I understand it.
When one repents of their sin and accepts the free gift of salvation through Christ, they recieve the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit breathes the breath of life into the believer. That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of spirit is spirit. Sin is no longer the master of us, for we are redeemed by the blood of Christ. After our spiritual birth, we see sin more clearly. We can see our sin as God sees it. This is what gives us the ability to live righteous before God. But our righteous living alone is not what saves us, but Christ alone. Does that make sense?

You said: "Is it the only god or are there others who can do what "it" cannot?"

Well, like in your Christianity, I have the obvious three Gods (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), with this difference:

Father: The Unspeakable Unbegotten Incomprehensible Absolute.
Mother (Holy Spirit): Creative Goddess, Mother of the Holy Angels, Light of Creation, Provider of Gnosis, and Queen of Time-Space.
Son (Christ): A Finite Aeonic Emanation of the Father-Mother, Cosmic Savior, and Cool Dude.

But that's just for starters. There are at least thirty-five Aeons (Gods/Goddesses) that I know of for sure. I'd say the actual number of them is huge. The Angels have admitted they're not sure of the number however they do optimistically speak of "The Infinities." Hey, maybe down here "Less is more", but up there it's definitely "More is more."

My dear Gnostic, you misunderstand the Trinity. Christians do not worship three "gods". God is all in all. It is a mystery that I find difficult to easily explain, but I relate to it like this........I am Robin. But I am more than that. I am Robin the daughter, Robin the mother and Robin the wife. And even though I am Robin the wife, I am also part of my husband and he is part of me. I have parts of all three "people", but there is still only one me. I don't know if that helped or not, but there you go.

You said: "I serve a risen Savior which history shows was definatively male!"

I too have a Soter, however he was not risen since he was never dead since an Eternal Divine Being, such as the Christ, cannot die, ever. But I also have a mortal Teacher/Savior who was Jesus, and yes, he most certainly was male. And being male, he didn't mind a good woman. Therefore it was quite fitting for him to be united to his consort, the Holy Mary Magdalene. This earthy and very secret marriage (Sacred marriage in the Garden) was a reflection of the Cosmic events which have been unfolding since the creation of the universe. The Bridegroom unites to his Bride (both physically and spiritually). I tell you the truth, faith without sacred sex is dead. Now what does your Bible say on the matter? For answers I can recommend beginning with the most Holy book, The Song of Songs. It's an excellent reference on the subject, and most reliable since of all sixty-six books it's the only one that is truly the Infallible Word of God.

Looks like someone bought into the "DaVinci Code" nonsense. Please! There is no evidence that Jesus was ever married.

While sex was indeed designed by God, He intends for it to be reserved for men and women who have committed themselves to each other in marriage. Sex is a wonderful expression of deep love and intimacy between a husband and a wife and is meant to be enjoyed and pleasureable. Song of Songs is a beautiful picture of the deep longing and love of a husband and wife. It is also a picture of Christ's love for the Church. It has been a while since I read it through, though. I should read it again. :think:

I hope this has not been too confusing. Bear in mind that I am a blonde!! :chuckle:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Hi Dear Robin, you said: "how has your god communicated with you?"

No. My Supreme God is completely silent. He-She-It doesn't say anything. Never said a thing, and never will. But the Angels and the Prophets are loudmouths and once they start you can't fit a word in sideways.

You said: "Is there a "holy" book which you have studied?"

Yes, the Bible for a start, and of course the LOGOS which the Catholics tried to destroy but were not so successful. And many other books. My religion is not about burning books, it's about gaining knowledge.

You said: "Other than being without the designation of being neither male or female........what is "it" like? Is it the only god or are there others who can do what "it" cannot?"

"IT" is unspeakable. It has no height, no depth, no nothing. Indeed IT is not even a being. In other words, whatever human mind is able to conceive, that is not what IT is. In this way, my God is completely protected from the inferior perception of the human mind. We cannot ever hope to comprehend IT, ever. However in the inferior religions, God is "this" and "that" and does "this" and "that" and displays certain behavioral characteristics which are altogether very human. No one can accuse us of making God in our image.

You said: "What are the tenets or doctrines of your religion?"

They are somewhat similar to yours. We're not only Christians, but we're the very first ones. The difference is that my religion deals with the heavenly things and never the earthly. It was given to the Hebrews among other things the revelations of the one God, to the orthodox Christians the revelation of the Father, to the Gnostics the revelation of the heavenly things. Consider...

John 3:12
I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

Well of course he didn't waste time explaining things to those who called him demon possessed. He took his knowledge to those who could comprehend. The first being Mary Magdalene (the leader of the seven woman Apostles), and then followed by Judas Iscariot (who did not betray anyone), then James, Thomas, John, and others. Right at the bottom of the hierarchy was Peter who actually never woke up from his deep sleep and went on to Rome. The rest is history.

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:sigh: :nono:

 

[Agape4Robin]

Exactly. This is the difference. Skeptics do not accept the validity of scripture, and Christians prove the Bible with the Bible.

Imagine that.....christians using the bible..... :think:

 

[Gnostic]

Dearest Robin, thank you for your reply.

We (that is, I, and Aquila, my Guardian Angel who sometimes throws me on her back between her wings and accellerates into the Infinities of Knowledge at the velocity of Invisible Light) discussed your reply in some detail, and we (Aquila and I) both agreed that your post is quite worthy. However, we found a few points that deserve some attention...

You said: " I am not out to impress anyone, just want to tell what Christ has done for me..."

Here is what Christ has done for you: He has made you impressive.

You said: "When one repents of their sin and accepts the free gift of salvation through Christ, they recieve the Holy Spirit."

Actually, popular Christian teaching says "man can do nothing himself" therefore one would first require the Holy Spirit to enable him/her to accept Christ [Matthew 16:17] Therefore we have a problem.

You said: "Christians do not worship three "gods"."

If one throws himself on the ground and prays to the other, and you worship the one on the ground praying, and also the one who is at the same time in heaven, then technically that is at least two Gods. My dear Robin, the Gnostics were never afraid of the revelation, they stepped out of the closet the moment Master opened His mouth.

You attempted to explain the Trinity thus: "I am Robin the daughter, Robin the mother and Robin the wife."

Actually that is a good description. True, but when was the last time you forsook yourself? BTW, if you would like a sensible explanation why Jesus said what he did on the cross, I'd be delighted to provide it.

You said: "Looks like someone bought into the "DaVinci Code" nonsense."

Well when we got to this part Aquila gave me this strange stare, and then insisted I should deliver a message to you. So here is the message, and I quote her word for word...

AQUILA: "In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, Commander-In-Chief of the Seventh Universe, All-Powerful God of the Sixth Dimension, Eternal Son of the All, Hail! Amen. Amen. Amen. Dear Robin, we have truly inspired Dan Brown to write the book, but you should know that the Gnostics take nothing from him, rather the book takes from the Gnostics. And you should also know that, Hush! it's esoteric! -Always, and in all Eternity, Aquila"

Are Angels weird or what? Anyway, there you have it.

You said: "There is no evidence that Jesus was ever married."

At least not in the Christian Bible that Peter's disciples compiled.

You said: "Sex is a wonderful expression of deep love and intimacy between a husband and a wife and is meant to be enjoyed and pleasureable."

Well that's refreshing! Aimiel seems to believe that it's mainly used for makin' bacon.

You said about Solomon: "It is also a picture of Christ's love for the Church."

Well this is what Christians often say, but I simply fail to find any trace of the erotic in the Christian churches. It's simply nonexistent. I've seen snakes, backflipping, fainting, talking in tongues, but nothing like this...

Song of Solomon 8:8
I said, "I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit." May your breasts be like the clusters of the vine,

Now if you had said "Christ's love for the Gnostic Church", hehe, then it would be logically spot on. Ask anyone.

Anyway, thank you for your time, and may the Father in Heaven pour out the Gnosis upon all those here who are consciously present, and who are slowly remembering their orign.

And to the rest: :nananana:

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[Granite]

Imagine that.....christians using the bible..... :think:

I was only pointing out the difference. You missed the point.

 

[Chileice]

As instigator of this thread, I feel like it has been completely hijacked. I believe gnostic the one most responsible for taking this to a completely new subject. He/she is also verging on the pornographic and I will ask a moderator to review the content to see if sanctions are warranted.

 

[Granite]

As instigator of this thread, I feel like it has been completely hijacked. I believe gnostic the one most responsible for taking this to a completely new subject. He/she is also verging on the pornographic and I will ask a moderator to review the content to see if sanctions are warranted.

Chileice, I apologize the hijack--I'm culpable too, frankly--but I don't see how Gnostic has been "pornographic" or done anything worthy of being knocked around. Just me.

 

[Agape4Robin]

I was only pointing out the difference. You missed the point.

Well then, what exactly was your point? :think:

 

[Agape4Robin]

As instigator of this thread, I feel like it has been completely hijacked. I believe gnostic the one most responsible for taking this to a completely new subject. He/she is also verging on the pornographic and I will ask a moderator to review the content to see if sanctions are warranted.

I to apologize for the hijack....I'm easily side tracked.
As for Gnostic being "pornographic", I have to agree with granite on this one.
I will happily make a new thread to carry on this discussion. Again, please accept my apologies.

 

[Chileice]

I to apologize for the hijack....I'm easily side tracked.
As for Gnostic being "pornographic", I have to agree with granite on this one.
I will happily make a new thread to carry on this discussion. Again, please accept my apologies.

Thanks for yours and for granite's apology. Have fun on the other thread.

 

[Lovejoy]

Anyplace you would like to pick this thread up, Chileice? Or do you think we have covered most of the ground? I don't know if it has been mentioned, but Paul's vision of Christ comes from his conversion at the hands of the Risen Christ. A Christ more on the level of what Daniel saw, or John in the Revelation. Certainly, this would lead to a different perspective than the Gospel accounts, though a no less wrong one.

 

[Aimiel]

We (that is, I, and Aquila, my Guardian Angel who sometimes throws me on her back between her wings and accellerates into the Infinities of Knowledge at the velocity of Invisible Light)

:kookoo:

 

[Gnostic]

You're stranded in the desert, searching for a pond. And suddenly, to your left, you hear beyond the dune the rushing of a great river. But after giving it a little thought, you say: "Ah, stuff it, think I'll turn right and keep looking for that pond anyway."

Dear Chileice, please accept my most sincere apology for causing the topic to be shifted. Yet I believe I've contributed to it in that I've demonstrated biblically that the writer of Paul didn't think too highly of women. This is clearly something which is not in line with the Lord's teaching. And, no one bothered to reply or to discuss the matter. Ignorance is no better than hijacking a topic, IMO.

As to my posts "verging on the pornographic," if by this you mean the public mention of sex or related, well, even Solomon would tell you that you're all uptight about nothing. Peace.

Dear Aimiel, how so? Don't you believe in Guardian Angels?

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Well? Have you been assigned one or not?

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[Aimiel]

Don't you believe in Guardian Angels?

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

This 'other gospel' that you preach is going to get you into trouble, because you've lost your way. Speaking of those who preach 'another gospel,' Paul said: "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." I think he knew exactly what you would fall for, and that when you attempt to deceive others, you become deceived yourself. That is why you have mistaken Aquila (your 'angel') for an angel, when it is a demon.

You also make 'dark secrets' with what is supposed to be light.

No man, when he hath lighted a candle, putteth it in a secret place, neither under a bushel, but on a candlestick, that they which come in may see the light. The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. If thy whole body therefore be full of light, having no part dark, the whole shall be full of light, as when the bright shining of a candle doth give thee light.

And again, the apostle said, "But (I) have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

 

[Chileice]

Another one of my own threads that actually sparked some good debate and which I nominate for my top 10 of 2005.