ECT Our triune God
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Arsenios
Well-known member
God's Truth
New member
I am with the Lord now. I will be with the Lord when I die; and I will be with the Lord on the new earth.
Arsenios
Well-known member
So when Paul, a MAN...
Appointed Timothy, a MAN...
OVER the Church where he served...
YOU THINK YOU are not to OBEY this MAN???
UNTIL you APPROVE his TEACHINGS???
I could not agree more...
Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether by word or by epistle... So you have taken the one, and ignored God's Word on the other...
At best, you are showing that we have traditions that are not addressed in Scripture - Your proofs are just that - Human proofs... I mean, you ARE human, yes? And they ARE your proofs, yes? You DID take them from Scripture, yes? So they are human proofs regarding interpretation of Scripture and the meaning of our actions...
That is why the arguments never can resolve... You are addressing the Body of Christ as an outsider with your human interpretation of the Scripture which they wrote and still interpret...
Obedience is NOT HOW we know God... YOU know that, GT... God's unpurchasable Gift of Grace is HOW we know God... Obedience merely establishes our sincerity of desire to Know Him, which He then GIVES to us...
Arsenios
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we have another one for the Satan Inc./Heretic List - :jawdrop:
God's Truth
New member
You do not listen too well do you?
Those who had themselves appointed are not appointed over us from God. Men appointing men who teach things that God did not say are not men I am supposed to follow.
You keep failing to grasp the fact that Paul did not contradict what he wrote. Your leaders contradict what Paul wrote.
In addition, I gave you many scriptures that tell us to believe the written Word.
I am showing you that your traditions that are not addressed in scripture are wrong, and that is by God’s written Word.
Jesus says that tradition keeps man from God’s truth: Matthew 15:6-9 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
Mark 7:8-9, 13 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
The apostles from the New Testament received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life. All we need to guide us to eternal life is written down in the Scriptures: John 16:13; 2 Peter 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matthew 28:20; I Corinthians 14:37; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
Jesus says that the traditions of men nullify God’s word. You just do not want to believe what the Holy Scriptures say.
That is not true. The Holy Bible has already been interpreted to English. I am not interpreting anything. I believe what is written.
I can prove easily that your traditions nullify God’s word.
You ARE WRONG.
Here, I would love to show you the truth. Read it and believe…
1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 3By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;…
There are more.
You will not be chosen to receive God’s gift of grace unless Jesus accepts you.
Jesus gives his Holy Spirit to those who obey, Acts 5:32, Acts 10:35. Those are the ones he accepts, Acts 15:8.
We have to eat of Jesus to be saved. Jesus’ words are life. We have to obey Jesus to receive life. Jesus is the truth, the light, and the way.
Lon
Well-known member
If I can, I will endeavor then, to deconstruct and rebuild that which was obfuscated.
It is a mess, however, so I'd appreciate input and clarity, in grace to get us all there:
It actually started with this post. It was for extreme length, but the infraction was for anti-Trinitarian as well.
Now, any time you side with a Unitarian in discussion, there are problems certainly, because you can't agree with them without also recognizing their error as well. PPS goes on further to say he isn't Orthodox and so we further have ideas about him that may or may not be accurately discerned so I will hope to repair and leave in tact what is true while dismissing here what isn't. This has to be done in snippets and will take awhile.
PPS has clearly stated that they are every bit, or worse, against scripture truths, but, the infraction did indeed call PPS's orthodoxy into question which has sent a few repercussions that reached me an others.
Because of that, I have to go back to this post to start:
Because it received infraction, it is important that it be expressed PPS missed 'modern' or 'derivative' Trinitarian ideology. He supports the foundational creeds and formulas.
For me: I have to then look at what the patristics (ECFs and clergy) detailed and what they didn't in order to understand where PPS is coming from and to see if his accusation is warranted. I think to a degree, it is in fact warranted. The simplicity of God goes back to Augustine and prior and is about the divine nature of God being indivisible into parts. This doctrine is mainly about God's personality and characteristics, but it also is talking about Him as He exist otherwise too: as An indivisible being. Because of that He is correct to call us on the carpet for three 'persons' to whatever degree we carry tri-theism (3 gods)and lose monotheism (one-being).
Rhema, basically means 'utterance' and it is where we get the idea of Ex Nihlo exisitence "Out of Nothing" but better corrected, out of God's utterance (utterance not to be confused with a physical breath, though 'physicality' was the result. It becomes more than just semantics, but important theo-LOGICal conceptions to understand correctly, the who, what, and how of God.
This is likely where the infraction seated and even the ensuing infraction, by my report, occurred. I apologized for reporting this after his retraction as I had missed it. I would hope (and allow pause here) for PPS to explain this better. If I read him correctly, he isn't saying he isn't Orthodox past understanding, but not unorthodox as to old historical Orthodoxy. I think we are going to have to really separate the meaning of that term to get to the bottom of this misunderstanding/understanding. I 'think' we can see where a lot moved from this point on, toward our present on this thread. I pray I am heading in the right direction for repair, but must necessarily need corroboration and/or correction to this point.
Lon
Well-known member
Physical ways of trying to explain how something can be one and three at the same time. Physical analogy tends to be for simplicity and for those that have a harder time with philosophical apprehension beyond physical terms toward complex metaphysical concepts. God is Spirit, and not physical, but interacts in with us in our physicality.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Paul told Timothy what, the folks who do what you are accusing others of, would be doing.
Right after Peter and Paul were gone the Corinthians started doing it.
Note this excerpt from Clement the first bishop of Rome to the Corinthians, exposing the beginners of yer church which began there not Antioch.
7 ¶ It is, therefore, just and *righteous, men and brethren, that we should become obedient unto God, rather than follow
such as * through pride and sedition, have made themselves the ring-leaders of a detestable emulation.
You do know what sedition means?
You do know what detestable emulation means?
Yer little Satan ploy of trying to claim I'm not being Christ like to you is false Rhema.
I rebuke it in the name of Jesus.
For those interested here is a copy of the letter translated from the original Greek one that now resides in the British museum.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob15.htm
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
You have misunderstood the Orthodox position, so it's not an issue to address toward the Church but toward clarifying for you personally.
The perichoresis inter-penetration of the (alleged) three hypostases is the "choreography" or "chorus" of them all being completely within each other as they underlie the ousia. There is no other ousia than the perichoretically inter-conjoined hypostases themselves.
The hypostatic union is specifically and exclusively in regards to Christology wherein the divine Son hypostasized to take humanity upon Himself by nature. Miaphysitic (Cyrillian) for the Orthodox and Dyophysitic (Chalcedonian) for the Latins and Protestants.
Hypostatic union is for the Son to take on humanity and be conjoined to His Bride; first in betrothal as married in all but flesh, and ultimately to be joined as one flesh for all everlasting. Human marriage is in this fashion, consummated by the physical intimacy of sexual intercourse, and maintained both physically and spiritually.
Neither the Father nor Holy Spirit hypostasized to take on flesh, so they are not in direct hypostatic union with us. Instead, we are hypostatically united with Christ and partakers of God's divine nature through our Husband of promise.
The omnipresent Holy Spirit is the perichoretic for all Believers as each is in hypostatic union with Christ. As with a musical chorus, all hearts beat as one by this perichoresis.
Hypostatic union is for Christ taking on humanity, and that for the purpose of being joined as one flesh with us. The Father is not joined in one flesh with the Son or us, nor is the Holy Spirit; nor did either take on flesh.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not in hypostatic union, but are perichoretically inter-penetrating each other. These cannot be conflated or interposed, for it would depict marriage rather than inter-communion of substances for the essence.
So my comments were to illustrate the unintentional blasphemy of attributing hypostatic union to the (alleged) hypostases. This would be equivalent to marriage as typified by human marriage, including physical sexual intimacy. Fathers and Sons don't have this kind of intimacy, nor would another party. It's for divinity becoming flesh and being one flesh with humanity.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Arsenios
Well-known member
Only one of the three is everlasting with a beginning, and that is the Logos incarnate in His humanity... Not God the Father, not God the Son, and not God the Holy Spirit...
God SAID "Let there be Light, and there was Light..."
I tell ya, PPS, I did not even get that this was what you meant by Rhema - Such is the off-putting of your multisyllability... So you want for us to somehow ACCOUNT for this Rhema of God???
I tell you that we simply accept it at face value, and recognize that it is but the most descriptive term in the human language to give us God's revealed account... The LXX does not use rhema for this, btw, but eipen instead, at least in early Genesis... So God Spoke His Word, the Logos, in the Spirit that moved upon the Face of the Deep, and creation was created by its Creator, and from this, you want to develop a system of thought and concepts that smoothly articulate all the permutations of all these words giving us a full and complete account of God and creation?
I tell you, my Brother, the words, and the concepts which they name, and the processes of mentation that bring them to bear upon fallen creation, are themselves fallen and incapable of apprehending the reality to which these words refer in this account by God to Moses of the Creation of creation... To try to rope them into a logically consistent account is as futile as chasing the square root of 2 to its finite conclusion... It is vanity of intellect...
If you wish to say that the voice of God speaking is the Logos of God, then you can do so, but WHEN you do so, you have to understand that you have not yet met Mr. Schnartz, and so you still know NOTHING about either God, or His Voice, or the Words of His Voice, or their Meaning, or their Power... You simply don't know Schnartz... You just have a pile of created words in fallen concepts about a fallen cosmos used to describe as best they can an event not imaginable and ineffable...
Enough for now...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
Thank-you PPS - Normal language is not so hard, yes?
Now in YOUR terms, where God is ONE Hypostasis, do you not have to say that IF Christ is God, and WE are Hypostatically joined with Christ, THEN we are of necessity joined Hypostatically with the Father and with the Holy Spirit?
In Orthodox terms, on the other hand, our Hypostatic union with Christ as members of His Body does NOT join us Hypostatically with the Father and the Holy Spirit... Because they are NOT the SAME Hypostases as Christ...
I have not done much with the term perichoresis, understanding it simply as the unity of the three Divine Hypostases underlying the same Ousia... Whether joined or separated makes little sense to ask... We are speaking of God, and the categories of interpenetration of these Hypostases are so well beyond our pay grade as to eliminate intelligent discussion... I should think it is infinitely beyond the Hypostatic union of Christ with man, and that what we have with Christ is but a pale Image of what the Three have with each Other in Their Unity...
Arsenios
Arsenios
Well-known member
The Marriage of the Lamb is NOT sexual...
Nor is the union of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in one Ousia...
Marriage is but the best descriptive of what actually takes place... It is a type, but it is not IT... Just as the baptism of the Jews in the Red Sea was but a type of the Baptism of Christ...
The intimacy of the union is WAY beyond puny sexual relations in ANY marriage... It is an intimacy of one's very being as it is conjoined with God in an ineffable manner and raised...
An intimacy that brings Philip to the Ethopian eunuch, catechizes him, baptizes him, and disappears from him...
It has nothing to do with sex...
That is why Paul speaks of the Marriage of the Lamb as MYSTERY...
And the Faith of Christ as a Mystery...
It is not a logically systematized structure of fallen human thought...
Like yours and mine...
Arsenios
Lon
Well-known member
We are going to be stuck on the 'sexuality' descriptor here. He has apologized for it and tried to explain his intention was rather that such an idea is heterodox - heresy to him, that the Father would be seen as husbandry to man. I think it a bit far reaching, for we are also called 'brothers' and 'friends' such that the bride imagery language of Christ would, in my mind, fit against such a notion of 1) heresy or 2) sexuality. We must be careful with analogy that we don't take it to absurd ends. In this case, it would be better to discuss the problematic implication rather than the invective. IOW: say it without analogy. I believe he has done so, but it might help the thread to move along if such were restated, simply as the heterodox-heretical expression as well as the coinciding correction over the matter.
When it comes to our Tri-une God, we are trying to avoid both tri-theism and modalism, as well as polytheism and arianism (for 1mind1 - forget 'ism' just 3 gods, one god, many gods and not-a-god).
God's Truth
New member
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and is the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
PneumaPsucheSoma
TOL Subscriber
Indeed. Yep.
God's Truth
New member
Why are you agreeing now? Did you not go against me for this before?