Origin of the Cross

CherubRam

New member
Origin of the word crux. Latin for: stake, scaffold, or cross, used in executions or torment.
The English term "cross" is derived from the Latin word crux. From about 1635 to 1645 AD.

Labarum
An upright pole with cross section to display a standard such as a flag, banner, or emblem.

Word Origin
From Late Latin, and of obscure origin
This standard was known by the name "labarum"—a word the etymology of which is very uncertain. The etymology of the word is unclear. Some derive it from Latin /labāre/ "to totter, or to waver." The labarum was also used to hold the ancient Babylonian sky-god emblem.

Patibulum
It is a establish fact that the two-beamed cross was in existence in the time of Yahshua, and that the word crux was used to refer to it. The crux was composed of two main pieces: The stipes, which is the upright pole, and the patibulum attached to it. The patibulum is the cross beam.

Stipe
Stipe is an upright support.
From Latin stipes "log, post, tree trunk"

Stauros
Stauros (σταυρός) is the Greek word for stake or post.


Updated.
 

CherubRam

New member
Facts? Only laziness prevents one from searching the internet. :sherlock:
"Common Sense" however seems to be a rather "rare commodity".

BTW, there were 4 different "configurations" that the Romans used. The one illustrated would have been the easiest and most "efficient". Four nails, not through any bone (ie: wrist/pulse & behind the achilles tendon).
The word "crux" is not used in scriptures. The Romans did use a cross as one method, but it is not mentioned in scriptures.
 

beameup

New member
1. Ignore this fraud, as there is no such thing, as "the Greek."

2. 1 Corinthians 1:22 KJV

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:


The LORD God: You want a sign?Very well... as it is written:


Exodus 12 KJV
21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Do exactlty this....take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason.


You are "drawing," making a "sign of the cross." Try it. See it?

And notice that the 12 tribes, in the wilderness, are arranged, "overhead," in the sign of a cross.



Romans 15:4 KJV

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.


Matthew 11:15 KJV

He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

How about the bronze serpent raised up on a pole by Moses?
If the "snake" bit you, you had to look to the brazen serpent to be healed.
 

Truster

New member
Origin of the Cross


A tradition of the Church which our fathers have inherited, was the adoption of the words "cross" and "crucify." These words are nowhere to be found in the Greek of the New Testament. These words are mis-translations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says, "STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake...Both the noun and the verb stauroo, to fasten to a stake or pole, are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two-beamed cross. The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea (Babylon), and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name)...By the middle of the 3rd century A.D. the churches had either departed from, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the pretige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross piece lowered, was adopted..."

Dr. Bullinger, The Companion Bible, appx. 162 states, "crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god...It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper...The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon and upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle."

Rev. Alexander Hislop, The Two Babylons, pp. 197-205, frankly calls the cross "this Pagan symbol...the Tau, the sign of the cross, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the false Messiah...the mystic Tau of the Chaldeans (Babylonians) and Egyptians--the true original form of the letter T--the initial of the name of Tammus...the Babylonian cross was the recognized emblem of Tammuz."

In the Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol. 14, p. 273, we read, "In the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner." Jacob Grimm, in his Deutsche Mythologie, says that the Teutonic (Germanic) tribes had their idol Thor, symbolised by a hammer, while the Roman Christians had their crux (cross). It was thus somewhat easier for the Teutons to accept the Roman cross.

Greek dictionaries, lexicons and other study books also declare the primary meaning of stauros to be an upright pale, pole or stake. The secondary meaning of "cross" is admitted by them to be a "later" rendering. At least two of them do not even mention "cross," and only render the meaning as "pole or stake." In spite of this strong evidence and proof that the word stauos should have been translated "stake," and the verb stauroo to have been translated "impale," almost all the common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate's crux (cross), a "later" rendering of the Greek stauros.

While it is true that stauros means stake or pole, it does not rule out that a cross piece was not attached to it. Look at modern times for example. A post often has something else attached to it like a wire fence, a mail box, or even a sign. The Greek word "stauros" itself does not explain whether anything is, or is not attached to it. Even early Christian writers spoke of the cross as having four limbs pointing above, below, and to both sides. Irenaeus mentioned the cross as "two in length, and two in breadth." Justin Martyr spoke of the cross as having "one beam placed upright" and "the other beam fitted on to it."

Historical evidence points to Constantine as the one who had the major share in uniting Sun-worship and the Messianic Belief. Constantine's famous vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun," in the year 312, is usually cited. Writers, ignorant of the fact that the cross was not to be found in the New Testament Scriptures, put much emphasis on this vision as the onset of the so-called "conversion" of Constantine. But, unless Constantine had been misguided by the Gnostic Manichean half-Christians, who indeed used the cross in their hybrid religion, this version of the cross superimposed on the sun could only be the same old solar cross, the symbol of the Sun-deity, the centre of cosmic religion, the astrological religion of Babylon.

The fact remains: that which Constantine saw, is nowhere to be found in Scripture. We read in the book of Johannes Geffcken, The Last Days of Greco-Roman Paganism. p. 319, "that even after 314 A.D. the coins of Constantine show an even-armed cross as a symbol for the Sun-god."

Many scholars have doubted the "conversion" of Constantine because of the wicked deeds that he did afterwards, and because of the fact that he only requested to be baptized on his death-bed many years later, in the year 337. So, if the vision of the cross impressed him, and was used as a rallying symbol, it could not have been in honour of our Saviour, because Constantine is attested of by his persistent use of images of the Sun-deity on his coins that were issued by him up to the year 323. Secondly, the fact of his motivation to issue his Sunday-keeping edict in the year 321, which was not done in honour of our Saviour, but was done because of the "venerable day of the Sun," as the edict read, is proof of his continued allegiance to Sol Invictus.

Where did the cross come from, then? J.C. Cooper, An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, p.45, aptly summarizes it, "Cross--A universal symbol from the most remote times; it is the cosmic symbol par excellence." Other authorities also call it a sun-symbol, a Babylonian sun-symbol, an astrological Babylonian-Assyrian and heathen sun-symbol, also in the form of an encircled cross referred to as a "solar wheel," and many other varieties of crosses. Also, "the cross represents the Tree of Life, the age-old fertility symbol, combining the vertical male and horizontal female principles, especially in Egypt, either as an ordinary cross, or better known in the form of the crus ansata, the Egyptian ankh (sometimes called: the Tau cross), which had been carried over into our modern-day symbol of the female, well known in biology.

As stated above, the indisputable sign of Tammuz, the mystic Tau of the Babylonians and Egyptians, was brought into the Church chiefly because of Constantine, and has since been adored with all the homage due only to the Most Hight. The Protestants have for many years refrained from undue adoration of, or homage to, the cross, especially in England at the time of the Puritans in the 16th and 17th centuries. But lately this un-Scriptural symbol has been increasingly accepted in Protestantism. We have previously discussed "the weeping for Tammuz," and the similarity between the Easter resurrection and the return or rising of Tammuz. Tammuz was the young incarnate Sun, the Sun-divinity incarnate. This same Sun-deity, known amongst the Babylonians as Tammuz, was identified with the Greek Adonis and with the Phoenician Adoni, all of them Sun-deities, being slain in winter, then being "wept for," and their return being celebrated bu a festivity in spring, while some had it in summer--according to the myths of pagan idolarty.

The evidence for its pagan origin is so convincing that The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that "the sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization." It then continues and refers to the Tau cross of the pagan Egyptians, "In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross."

Further proof of its pagan origin is the recorded evidence of the Vestal Virgins of pagan Rome having the cross hanging on a necklace, and the Egyptians doing it too, as early as the 15th century B.C.E. The Buddhists, and numerous other sects of India, also used the sign of the cross as a mark on their followers' heads. "The cross thus widely worshipped, or regarded as a 'sacred emblem,' was the unequivocal symbol of Bacchus, the Babylonian Messiah, for he was represented with a head-band convered with crosses."

After Constantine had the "vision of the cross," he ahd his army promoted another variety of the cross, the Chi-Rho or Labarum. This has subsequently been explained as representing the first letters of the name Christos, But again, this had a pagan origin. They were found as inscriptions on rock, dating from the year ca. 2500 B.C.E., being interpreted as "a combination of two Sun-symbols, known as the Ax- or Hammer-symbol of the Sun- or Sky-deity, and the + or X as the ancient symbol of the Sun, both of these signs having a sensual or fertility meaning as well. Another proof of its pagan origin is found on a coin of Ptolemeus III from the year 247-222 B.C.E.

A well-known encyclopedia describes the Labarum (Chi-Rho) as, "The labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean (Babylonian) sky-god and in Christianity it was adopted..." Emperor Constantine adopted this Labarum as the imperial ensign and thereby succeeded in "uniting both divisions of his troops, pagans and Christians, in a common worship...

According to Suicer the word (labarum) came into use in the reign of Hadrian, and was probably adopted from one of the nations conquered by the Romans." It must be remembered that Hadrian reigned in the years 76-138 C.E., that he was a pagan emperor, worshipped the Sun-deity Serapis when he visited Alexandria, and was vehemently anti-Judaic, being responsible for the final near-destruction of Jerusalem in the year 130 C.E.

Another dictionary relates the following about the Chi-Rho, "However, the symbol was in the use long before Christianity, and X (Chi) probably stood for Great Fire or Sun, and P (Rho) probably stood for Pater or Patah (Father). The word labarum (la-baar-um) yields everlasting Father Sun."



Yet another fact that proves people prefer a pagan fable to a fact. Stake and impaled or hanged are correct. Cross and crucifixion are a fiction.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
Jesus was crucified on a cross. Either that,or it is a fairy tale because crosses are illustrated in the oldest Christian sites. The Romans used crosses- are you going to tell Rome they are wrong on their own history?

Sorry, but you are simply wrong [MENTION=16505]CherubRam[/MENTION]

Learn to acknowledge context and the flexibility of words- a cross can easily be called a 'stake'- it's nevertheless a stick in the ground.

The cross predates Christianity by nearly 2000 years.....
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
To what where his hands and feet nailed? And does it matter if his arms are out or up?

Id say its VERY important seeing as organized Christianity has promoted the use of a cross for 1700 or so years. The cross after all is a mainstay of Christendom.
Firstly the origins of the cross are pagan. That's an established and well known fact, as the cross predates Christianity by close to 2000 years. Secondly idol worship was strictly forbidden among the Jews. So even if Jesus had died on a cross A) Why would you want to venerate the object he was killed with (If a friend of yours was killed with a knife would you venerate the knife in remembrance of him?) and B) Veneration of the cross is idol worship. So not only is the cross of pagan origin and profane to God, worship of it is idolatrous too, and its use is to be found NOWHERE in early Christianity of 1AD.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
Yet another fact that proves people prefer a pagan fable to a fact. Stake and impaled or hanged are correct. Cross and crucifixion are a fiction.

Interestingly they weren't even mistranslations. Some translators deliberately took liberties when translating Bible text to lend credence to the veneration of the cross which was common throughout the Roman Empire among pagans.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
The translation is correct. No problem with the word "tree."

Good man. Tree worship was actually very common in antiquity, especially among people of Teutonic origin. Here's an interesting anecdote. There's a place not far from where i live named 'Becontree'. The people that lived in that region 2000 years ago were of Germanic origin migrating from Europe to Britain. Essentially the etymology of the word means 'tree of a man named Beohha'. Beohha being the name of the local chief or patriarch. It was common for the chief or head of the tribe -in this case Beohha- to congregate under their sacred tree (the tree usually marking the tomb or resting place of a deceased ancestor or chieftain worshiped as a god by the locals) for religious rites or open air meetings. Bede a very well known early British historian and Monk from around 700AD expands on this in his book "Bedes Ecclesiastical History of the English People".
Tree or totem/pole worship was also a global phenomena. The aboriginal peoples of the Americas practiced totem worship extensively.
The Hebrew scriptures/OT has many many examples of tree or 'sacred pole' worship that was also very common among the Semitic peoples in the near east. Even the Jews practiced tree/pole worship for Jeremiah 17:2 tells us "2 when their sons remember their altars and their sacred poles beside a luxuriant tree, upon the high hills, 3 [on] the mountains in the field." This verse is particularly telling as worship of hills, mountains as well as worshiping on them or on an elevated place -presumably so the worshipers could be closer to heaven- was also common place globally in antiquity. In fact the Vatican is established on a number of hills formerly used by the Etruscan's for pagan worship.

De 16:21 "You must not plant for yourself any sort of tree as a sacred pole."

Whats evident from the very ancient literary sources such as legends and general anthology of early Semitic peoples is a garbled twisted version of early Biblical history in Genesis. Many of these legends feature doves, branches and tree's all of which are religious objects of veneration. It wouldn't surprise me if the establishment of tree worship was some garbled recollection of events from Eden and the Flood which when orally handed down via early generations resulted in the tree worship that was so prevalent in early history.
 

beameup

New member
6a00d8341c582a53ef0120a561bda7970b-320wi
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
The cross predates Christianity by nearly 2000 years.....

Crucifixion has it's origin in Persia, which was adopted ultimately by other nations as it was useful in deterring slander or otherwise speaking against government- for self evident reasons.

Rome, in particular, had a religion and government which were dual- to go against one meant to go against both.
And they ended up doing the same exact thing with Christianity.
 

Truster

New member
Interestingly they weren't even mistranslations. Some translators deliberately took liberties when translating Bible text to lend credence to the veneration of the cross which was common throughout the Roman Empire among pagans.

If something is not translated correctly. It is a mistranslation.
 

Nick M

Born that men no longer die
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Id say its VERY important seeing as organized Christianity has promoted the use of a cross for 1700 or so years. The cross after all is a mainstay of Christendom.

Only to one church. The Israelites used a fish to ID each other without notice. The cross is for those saved by grace.

Firstly the origins of the cross are pagan.

Completely irrelevant, as the Romans nailed him to a cross.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
If something is not translated correctly. It is a mistranslation.

Not really. Generally a mistranslation implies a genuine human error such as a copyist error. What I'm talking about are deliberate interpolations or deliberate corruptions of the text to further the crucifixion/cross dogma. Interpolation has been very popular by translators throughout Christendoms history.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
Only to one church. The Israelites used a fish to ID each other without notice. The cross is for those saved by grace.



Completely irrelevant, as the Romans nailed him to a cross.

Your conviction on your position is quite ironic as there is NO SECULAR evidence that proves Jesus was nailed to a cross. All the available secular evidence actually points to Jesus being nailed to an upright stake, not a cross.

Your dismissal of history and the pagan origins of the cross, an emblem which was later adopted by Christendom to appease newer pagan converts, in deference for what is nothing more than fabled Christendom dogma is quite telling. Either way the pertinent point is veneration of the cross is idolatrous.
Why you'd want to worship the object that killed Christ is beyond me. Why not worship the Roman flagrum that was used to whip him as well. Then again sections of Christendom venerate the so called "Turin Shroud" (death mask) as well, a proven fraud. Seeing as the veneration of even the decayed body parts of 'Saints' was popular among so called Christians it shouldn't be too surprising the acceptance of such a scurrilous ideology.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
Crucifixion has it's origin in Persia, which was adopted ultimately by other nations as it was useful in deterring slander or otherwise speaking against government- for self evident reasons.

Do you have any links/sources proving this statement? It sounds doubtful to me as A) The cross predates the Persian civilization. The cross being well known to the Chaldean, Babylonians and the Egyptians all of whom predate Persia. B) The Assyrians were the most well known civilisation in antiquity who practiced extreme barbarism on their victims with all manner of inventive ways of killing their victims. The Assyrians predate the Persians and likewise the Persians to my knowledge were not particular known for capital punishment methods similar to the Romans or Assyrians. Either way the Assyrian pantheon of Gods was almost identical to the Babylonian. So the Assyrians also used the cross in worship prior to the Persians who from what i recall were monotheistic practicing Zoroastrianism worship of Ahura Mazda.
 

Crucible

BANNED
Banned
Do you have any links/sources proving this statement? It sounds doubtful to me as A) The cross predates the Persian civilization. The cross being well known to the Chaldean, Babylonians and the Egyptians all of whom predate Persia. B) The Assyrians were the most well known civilisation in antiquity who practiced extreme barbarism on their victims with all manner of inventive ways of killing their victims. The Assyrians predate the Persians and likewise the Persians to my knowledge were not particular known for capital punishment methods similar to the Romans or Assyrians.

"Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)"

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm
 

beameup

New member
"Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)"

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm

I think the records would indicate that the Assyrians practiced extreme cruelty which was unheard-of previously and afterward. This would include impalement where the pointed stake was inserted into the anus and up through the body cavity. I believe that this was the method described in the book of Esther.
 

SonOfCaleb

Active member
"Britannica reports that the first historical record of Crucifixion was about 519 BC when "Darius I, king of Persia, crucified 3,000 political opponents in Babylon" (Encyclopaedia Britannica, crucifixion)"

http://www.bible.ca/d-history-archeology-crucifixion-cross.htm

Thanks for the link. I just checked in my copy of Herodtus The Histories and the author of that article has liberally correlated the word 'impaled' to mean on a cross. Herodotus's works at iii 159.1 contradict him as itactually says and i quote
"And he also had about three thousand of the most prominent men impaled on stakes;"
So Herodotus confirms the use of a stake (stauros) and NOT a cross.

Interestingly your link confirms what i said that the practice of 'impalement' may have its source as the Assyrians and not the Persians.
Crucifixion is first attested among the Persians (cf. Herodotus, Hist. i.128.2; iii.132.2, 159.1), perhaps derived from the Assyrian impalement.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
The LORD God: You want a sign?Very well... as it is written:

Exodus 12 KJV
21 Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22 And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.

Do exactlty this....take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason.


You are "drawing," making a "sign of the cross." Try it. See it?

And notice that the 12 tribes, in the wilderness, are arranged, "overhead," in the sign of a cross.

Excellent, that is exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned the Passover.

In Exodus it was the blood of a virtual cross, in the NT it is the blood of a literal cross that preserves the firstborn.

:thumb:
 
Top