O'Reilly is changing my mind RE "free" college...

[Sheila B]

Top-down government has always been a problem, regardless of size. Our problem isn't the size, it's methodology. Top-down government creates dependency, and rewards the power-mongerers. Layers of oversight are good, they keep everyone honest. But layers of control is not good, as it invites abuse.

But ultimately, the only way to stop this top-down control and abuse is for the people to take responsibility for what government is doing, and correct it as needed. We have not been doing that, and out government has been usurped by a small very wealthy elite who seek to exploit us all for their own gain, and are succeeding in doing so.

All the more reason we need and educated and responsible populace. And not religious, corporate, or government dependents.

American has been losing its moral fiber for many years now. The roaring 20's were bad, but nothing compared to the roaring 60's. We are reaping what has been sown.

Only with moral agents can our kind of gvt work well.

 

[resodko]

You can make College free but how are you going to make everyone a white male

surgery

and bleach

and who are they going to date?

they could all turn gay :idunno:

 

[aikido7]

typical lib claptrap: anyone who has more than $100,000 in savings is one who cannot be trusted...

dumb



+

What the heck?

 

[aikido7]

that's because, generally, they are inexperienced idiots who think themselves brilliant

The actions of those brilliant inexperienced folks is the only thing that changes nations. Just take a look first at how those "experienced" types have done!

 

[PureX]

Ah, truer words were never spoken!

When I read your words, it made me think of contraception... sex separated from responsibility. Good bye babies and good bye marriages til death us do part. Gov pls pay for me to raise my child cause who knows where the other parent has gone?

If that's how you think and feel, you really need to check yourself. Contraception is not "sex separated from responsibility", it's employing a sexually responsible precaution against unwanted pregnancy.

And as to the government paying you to raise your babies, I think you shouldn't have babies until you can take care of them yourself, lest they grow up thinking that they will not have to take care of themselves either. But if you have them, anyway, it puts us between a rock ad a hard place. As we either pay you to take care of them, or we pay someone else to. Either way, we pay when we shouldn't have to. But the only alternative is that no one takes care of them. And most of us don't want to see that happen.

 

[PureX]

Right but we don't need to send people to Washington to get it done, that creates huge bureaucracies that gets bogged down in corruption and red tape. If we did all this on a local level, it would work better.

We can't do it on a local level. It requires national oversight. I don't think you realize, fully, just how inter-dependint we all are these days. Nearly everything we do is seamless from one state to another, one city to another, one town to another, and one citizen to another. Our nation has become one really big, really complex, and really interdependent entity. And all that interdependency has to be regulated for everything to work together.

The feds could still ensure civil rights and such are protected but we don't need agencies where someone is mandating what goes on in a region of the country they've probably never even visited.

Yes, they do, if what goes on in that area is interconnected to what goes on everywhere else. And these days, it almost certainly is.

Complexity is unnecessary.

We have not yet learned as a species that complexity and interdependency is not always a good thing for us. So we are rushing head-long in that direction. And probably into a disaster of some kind.

But how to stop it? And who's gonna do it?

 

[resodko]

The actions of those brilliant inexperienced folks is the only thing that changes nations. Just take a look first at how those "experienced" types have done!

they overthrew the tsar in '17 and let stalin etc take power?

 

[republicanchick]

I don't want to pay for other people's education.

I already get forced to pay for the public school system which I don't use. Now college?

Pay for your own college.

the primary problem is TAXATION

the more we are taxed, the more freedoms we lose




__

 

[kmoney]

Well, right now all we do is blame their parents and forget them. And to listen to some of the Christians on TOL, we should be doing even less than that.

I was suggesting some possible methods of creating positive change.

Do you have any ideas for creating positive change in the parents?
Prizes for them? Tax credits if they spend study time with their kids?

Because the kids would receive their rewards from the schools, not the corporations, and do so by achieving what their teachers set out for them to achieve.

ok.

"Rebates" are too abstract, and are too often just tricks to increase sales. No, I think we need to give them a real, objective reward. Also, the "rebate" could too easily end up in the parent's pockets, being used for the parent's desires. Keep in mind that poor parenting is part of this problem.

I'm not sure how rebates are 'abstract', there is a very real return, but no, it's not as direct as, for example, receiving an ipod from your teacher. And who cares if it increases sales if helping children is a result too? You don't think that companies would give your rewards with selfish (partially) motivation too?

Darn thieving parents. :mmph:

I think it's a significant factor for anyone doing well at anything, especially at things that take a long time and great persistence to achieve: receiving reward and encouragement along the way is important.

Of course, everyone likes incentives. I'm not questioning the concept of incentives, I'm questioning how effective this particular way of incentivizing education would be.

Do we really need to study the idea that rewards help incentivize kid's (or anyone's) behavior?

You started this by saying that wealthy parents reward their children for good grades so yes I think a natural question is just how many wealthy parents do this and what significance it has. To repeat, I'm not denying the reality or idea of incentives, only wondering how this particular one would work out.

I'm puzzled by why you're working so hard looking for a problem in this.

I'm not 'working so hard' and I haven't shot your idea down from the start. I'm just asking questions. Try this. Email Apple and Nike and say they should start giving gizmos and shoes to kids who maintain a B average. I imagine they'll ask a few questions instead of Fed Ex'ing shoes and ipods to the nearest school the next day.

Do you think it's wrong for parents or teachers to reward kids for their achievements? Do you think it's wrong to reward them with things they actually would want to have? Everyone is talking about education as the primary means of people being able to support themselves without resorting to criminal behavior, which essentially means trading education for a paycheck as adults. So why not make this idea concrete at an early age, before the hopelessness of poverty all around them, infects them? It's what many wealthier parents do to teach their kids that exact lesson.

Nope, rewards are fine. And of course, rewards will only be effective if it's something they value. I'm also all for attempting to get children to value education. :thumb:

 

[resodko]

Nope, rewards are fine. And of course, rewards will only be effective if it's something they value.

i suggest broccoli

and classical music apps


kids just love that stuff :thumb:

 

[kmoney]

i suggest broccoli

and classical music apps


kids just love that stuff :thumb:

I'm listening to classical right now. :banana:

Glad to know I'm still 'in' with the younger generation.

 

[resodko]

...

 

[kmoney]

:rotfl:

Austin Powers 1 was great.

 

[PureX]

Do you have any ideas for creating positive change in the parents?
Prizes for them? Tax credits if they spend study time with their kids?

I think the parents are probably lost to the trap of poverty.

I'm not sure how rebates are 'abstract', there is a very real return, but no, it's not as direct as, for example, receiving an ipod from your teacher. And who cares if it increases sales if helping children is a result too? You don't think that companies would give your rewards with selfish (partially) motivation too?

I think they'll ONLY do it for selfish reasons. That's why we'd have to give them something like tax breaks to get them to help in any way.

Of course, everyone likes incentives. I'm not questioning the concept of incentives, I'm questioning how effective this particular way of incentivizing education would be.

Well, I doubt that it should be the only thing we do. It's just something I could think of.

You started this by saying that wealthy parents reward their children for good grades so yes I think a natural question is just how many wealthy parents do this and what significance it has. To repeat, I'm not denying the reality or idea of incentives, only wondering how this particular one would work out.

Try this. Email Apple and Nike and say they should start giving gizmos and shoes to kids who maintain a B average. I imagine they'll ask a few questions instead of Fed Ex'ing shoes and ipods to the nearest school the next day.

Just one, I expect: "what's in it for us?"

Nope, rewards are fine. And of course, rewards will only be effective if it's something they value. I'm also all for attempting to get children to value education. :thumb:

My basic point is that we do something; not just make a good education available to poor kids, but give them incentives to avail themselves of it.

Or, we could continue to do nothing, and then lock them up later as criminals. It seems a lot more cost-effective to me, to spend some money early to keep them in school, so we won't have to pay the price, later, in the cost of crime and incarceration.

 

[resodko]

I think the parents are probably lost to the trap of poverty.

and yet, impoverished asian immigrants managed to thrive and their kids were (usually) successful in academics

 

[Poly]

Who is "we"? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

You are free to pay for other people's education if you like. But please... don't include me in your "we".


Really??? Their field of choice?? What if they want to be a DJ, or an astronaut, or a flamingo dancer??

Seriously??

If a person wants to enter a field.... they can go to college and pay for it themselves like the rest of us do. If they do... my guess is they will get the most out of it. Typically when you get stuff for free.... it is of very little value to you.

When our older 3 sons graduated homeschooling and went on to college, we helped them out with the some of the financing but they did some to help on their end as well by using some of the money they had been saving up by working jobs while in high school.

It also makes them value their education more if they realize they have sacrificed some of their own money for their education.

 

[republicanchick]

the problem is that people are getting WAY too used to the government providing this and that... that is SCARY, if only people knew to be scared..

we are just so brainwashed into thinking that...

oh, there's a problem?

gummit




:jawdrop:

 

[Angel4Truth]

The correlative isn't being white, per se, it's having money. Kids who's parents have money will almost certainly finish high school. Kids who's parents are poor, regardless of color, are more likely not to finish high school.

No high school, no job. No job, no money. No money … welfare or criminal behavior to survive. In our culture everything is about the money.

Weird, my parents and their parents and so on were dirt poor when i was young, i finished high school and college, and was the first one in my family to do so. Ive never been to jail etc.. even though a good many from my neighborhood did, i guess the difference was the morals taught in my home and the care of my parents wanting me to get a good education

So how to break the cycle of poor kids not getting educated and becoming criminals?

Teach them morals and respect for themselves. Help them with their homework and be involved. Teach them that nothing worth having is free and to work hard and do their best.

 

[republicanchick]

those who get free... anything... do not appreciate like those who work for it..

but you can't get angry @ those dependenet on the gummit

they were lied to...

we are ALL being lied to...