Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[logos_x]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

what makes you think that just because he can, he will?

Because he said so...He is not willing that any perish, that the world be reconciled to Himself, that all men come to Him, and in the end...God is all in all, everything...all things in Him. That means nothing outside of Him.
He is both willing and able to do it.

 

[logos_x]

You say that God's redemptive grace is passive and restricted to those few who respond.
I'm saying that God's redemptive grace is strong and aggressive and will save to the uttermost and will succeed in redeeming everything and everyone.

That is the fundemental difference.
And it makes all the difference.

I'm also saying that this is what the church proclaimed as its prevelent doctrine for the first 500 or 600 years after Christ.

But...go about your business. If Churches and their colleges can't accept as small a thing as Open Theism then they sure as Heaven won't accept what I'm saying...unless God Himself intervenes.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by logos_x

I'm saying that God's redemptive grace is strong and aggressive and will save to the uttermost and will succeed in redeeming everything and everyone.

If it's so strong and aggressive, why isn't the population of the world 100% Christian?

I'm also saying that this is what the church proclaimed as its prevelent doctrine for the first 500 or 600 years after Christ.

I guess after a while those churches figured out that that's not how things really are.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Lucky

If it's so strong and aggressive, why isn't the population of the world 100% Christian?

Same reason you or I weren't until God showed it to us.
They are...they just don't know it yet

I guess after a while those churches figured out that that's not how things really are.

Nope. The Holy Roman Empire killed everyone who wouldn't proclaim their doctrine.
Even they added a purgatory.
Not too well versed on Church history, huh, Lucky?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by logos_x

I have, repeatedly.
Just as effectively as anyone has "proven" their "Open Theism" must be true, or their "Calvinism" must be true.

That isn't saying much, seeing as how Calvinism hasn't been proven to me. And neither has what you're saying. Although, I do agree with tenets of TULIP, and I also agree with things you said, when you first got here.

I don't think I misunderstand it at all.
The only point I've made that you would not concur with is that you believe that the lake of fire destroys Hades...other than that, you've said that God stops reaching for men at physical death and they get no more chances, that God will not compel or enforce His will at the expense of man's so called "free" will, and you limit God's success to only those who have voluntarily surrendered their will to His before they die.
Pretty much what everyone else says that are stuck in the "God is going to punish beyond anything you've seen before and beyond without end" structure. I'm saying it's time to scrap that completely and reform what was believed before "endless torments" became the prevalent view.
Either God can save everyone or He can't.
If He can, He will, and nothing can stop that.
If He can't...that would be a very odd thing, God made a situation that He Himself could not complete. He made a mistake...and billions pay the price for that.
There is no middle ground.
I believe He can do it.
Most do not.

But...I'll be happy to discuss this with you sometime.

I don't believe that hell is God punishing anyone. If anyone goes to hell, it's their own refusal to accept salvation. And any punishment is by their own doing. And, of course, I believe that the lake of fire destroys, so those who get sent there have absolutely no more chances of reconciliation, because they won't exist.

 

[godrulz]

Lighthouse:

Do you believe in the conscious torment of unbelievers for eternity, or in annihilation where the unregenerate will cease to exist?

I just started reading the thread and it looks interesting. I appreciate Sanders and Pinnock's 'radical ideas' and would consider Open Theism as a valid theology.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I appreciate Sanders and Pinnock's 'radical ideas' and would consider Open Theism as a valid theology.

You crack me up!

:darwinsm:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

You crack me up!

:darwinsm:

What? I thought you had Open Theism leanings also?:angel:

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by logos_x

Same reason you or I weren't until God showed it to us. They are...they just don't know it yet

Okay. I thought you were an idiot, but I just wanted to triple-check.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by logos_x

Because he said so...He is not willing that any perish, that the world be reconciled to Himself, that all men come to Him, and in the end...God is all in all, everything...all things in Him. That means nothing outside of Him.
He is both willing and able to do it.

i think there are a few other things to consider besides just what God desires :doh:

we can't leave out justice, choice, love and freedom.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by godrulz

Lighthouse:

Do you believe in the conscious torment of unbelievers for eternity, or in annihilation where the unregenerate will cease to exist?

Annihilation.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Prove that it exists to God.

Lighthouse, I asked you a question, and you did not answer it. Does it say anywhere in scripture that God does not know the future?

How was that not a prophecy? Jonah gave a specific time. And He also saod, "...will be..." That indicates that it was a prophesy that it would come to pass. And there weren't any unlesses, either.

Lighthouse, I thought I explained why it was not a prophecy. Numbers have meaning. God didn't just blindly pick the number 40, he picked it for a purpose. The purpose? The number 40 stand for probation. God was giving the Ninevites 40 days to repent.

Yes. But God would have had to send Nathan back to let David know that his son would not die.

Right. David knew God had the power to save David's son if God saw fit. However, David also knew that whether God spared his son or let him die, God already had His mind made up.

And?

Just pointing out that David repented as soon as Nathan came to him.

All this says is that God had a design for David, and knew how He wanted to make him, in the womb. It's the same as Jeremiah's "You formed me together, in my mother's womb."

How did God know that David's (or Jeremiah's) mother wouldn't have a miscarrige, or that David wouldn't die as a youth? Or was God just hoping they wouldn't die and that they would "accept him?"

So what if His understanding is infinite? None of this means that He knows the future. It only means that He completely understands that which exists, exhaustively.

Do you know the definition of infinite? From Dictionary.com it says that infinite means, "Having no boundaries or limits." You're limiting God to the present, making him finite instead of infinite.

No. He can believe that action A might happen, and then it doesn't. But He will also know that action B is a possiility. As well as action C and D and E and so on and so forth.

Where in the Bible does it say God has Plan B's, C's, and so forth? Why does God, who knows man's heart and sinful desires, ever need a back up plan?

That's a lot to know, isn't it?

Yes

Because Jonah told Nineveh that God had changed His mind, before the 4o days were up. Not after the fact.

See what I wrote above on Nineveh. It was not a prophecy.

Because those are things He has decided to make happen, and bring about. He will do what he has to do to bring them about.

How do you know that? What assurance do you have? How do you have that God will prevent the Great Tribulation from occuring, just like he prevented Nineveh from being destroyed?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by godrulz

What? I thought you had Open Theism leanings also?:angel:

Sorry, I read elsewhere that you do not.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i think there are a few other things to consider besides just what God desires :doh:

no kidding...:duh:

(Although, I believe that justice, choice, love, and freedom are included among what God desires).

we can't leave out justice, choice, love and freedom.

Exactly the point I'm trying to make.
The doctrine of eternal conscious torment leaves those things out more than anything man has conceived of...and annihilation, while perhaps a little more sane than ECT...still leaves out choice, love, and freedom as much as ECT.


Universal reconciliation includes justice, choice, love and freedom...more so than any other concept of judgement...and you would have to be an idiot not to see that.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by logos_x
Exactly the point I'm trying to make.
The doctrine of eternal conscious torment leaves those things out more than anything man has conceived of...and annihilation, while perhaps a little more sane than ECT...still leaves out choice, love, and freedom as much as ECT.

if a man does not want to be with God, what's the loving thing to do? what's the just punishment of offending an infinite God? is it loving to force someone to do something or to let him choose what he wants?

Universal reconciliation includes justice, choice, love and freedom...more so than any other concept of judgement...and you would have to be an idiot not to see that.

i fail to see choice and freedom and depending on those, love and justice as well.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

if a man does not want to be with God, what's the loving thing to do? what's the just punishment of offending an infinite God? is it loving to force someone to do something or to let him choose what he wants?

You make it sound as though God is a rapist....

i fail to see choice and freedom and depending on those, love and justice as well.

That's your problem...you fail to see it.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by logos_x

You make sound like God is a rapist....

how so?

That your problem...you fail to see it.

i don't see how someone who continually, willfully and intentionally desires to be apart from God would ever turn to God and suddenly want to be with him. would not heaven become a "hell" for him? wouldn't "hell" be "heaven" for him?

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i don't see how someone who continually, willfully and intentionally desires to be apart from God would ever turn to God and suddenly want to be with him.

Then you don't want to be with him? You will continue, regardless of anything God does, to reject and desire to be apart from Him?
If not...what changed you? What kind of thing motivated you to repent? And what if you hadn't...does that make it impossible to do?

would not heaven become a "hell" for him? wouldn't "hell" be "heaven" for him?

My God...you are an idiot.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Christine

Lighthouse, I asked you a question, and you did not answer it. Does it say anywhere in scripture that God does not know the future?

I provided you with three instances that appear in scripture. David, Nineveh and the flood.

Lighthouse, I thought I explained why it was not a prophecy. Numbers have meaning. God didn't just blindly pick the number 40, he picked it for a purpose. The purpose? The number 40 stand for probation. God was giving the Ninevites 40 days to repent.

Where did you get that idea?

Right. David knew God had the power to save David's son if God saw fit. However, David also knew that whether God spared his son or let him die, God already had His mind made up.

Prove it.

Just pointing out that David repented as soon as Nathan came to him.

And it has nothing to do with the topic.

How did God know that David's (or Jeremiah's) mother wouldn't have a miscarrige, or that David wouldn't die as a youth? Or was God just hoping they wouldn't die and that they would "accept him?"

Because God wasn't going to allow that to happen. He knew that He had specific purposes for Jeremiah, and even David. And God may not have known that David's mom wasn't going to miscarry. But that does not negate that he had the design for David in mind, while He was forming him in the womb. The same goes for Jeremiah. And David very well could have died as a youth. He came pretty close, as I recall.

Do you know the definition of infinite? From Dictionary.com it says that infinite means, "Having no boundaries or limits." You're limiting God to the present, making him finite instead of infinite.

Is time infinite, or finite? If time is infinite, then God knows it exhaustively. If it is finite, then God knows it only as far as it goes, at any given time.

Where in the Bible does it say God has Plan B's, C's, and so forth? Why does God, who knows man's heart and sinful desires, ever need a back up plan?

The mystery of the dispensation of grace was a plan B.

Because He knows our hearts, but He does not know what the future holds for us, and what circumstances will come about. But He knows what might happen.

Yes

:doh:

See what I wrote above on Nineveh. It was not a prophecy.

You haven't convinced me.

How do you know that? What assurance do you have? How do you have that God will prevent the Great Tribulation from occuring, just like he prevented Nineveh from being destroyed?

The tribulation has no conditions. The time of Jacob's trouble has to happen, as does the rapture. Unless you expect Israel to, one day, as a whole [majority] to turn to Christ, before either of them happen.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by lighthouse



The mystery of the dispensation of grace was a plan B.

It was plan A. There is no plan B.