God_Is_Truth
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both claim that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ who died, was buried and rose again on high.
arminism says the future is closed, open theism says the future is open
duh: )
Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses
- Thread starter Christine
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both claim that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ who died, was buried and rose again on high.
arminism says the future is closed, open theism says the future is open
duh: )
logos_x
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Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
both claim that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ who died, was buried and rose again on high.
arminism says the future is closed, open theism says the future is open
Calvinsm says the future is closed...Arminianism says the future is closed...and Open Theism says the future is open for those who believe and closed to everyone else?
They all "claim" that salvation is by grace alone in Jesus Christ, who died, was buried and rose again on high...but they don't proclaim it. They have a form...but deny the power thereof.
Armenians believe that the future is closed and Open Theist believe that it is open. That's the main difference.
Okay, okay here's the answer with less sarcasm...
Arminianism teaches the exhaustive foreknowledge of God (closed future), Open Theism teaches that God only knows that which is knowable and that the future actions of free moral agents is unknowable and that God therefore cannot know the future exhaustively thus an open future.
Open Theism is really more about the nature of God's creation that it is about the nature of God Himself, although there are definite implications of Open Theism that effect both issues.
Resting in Him,
Clete
logos_x
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I don't see that God's exhaustive forknowledge necessarily indicates a closed future.
hmmm. OK.
Well...the "closed future" doesn't sound very appealing at all, does it.
And an "open future" means that nobody, not even God, can know how anything will turn out for anyone...not too appealing either.
Where are we going? Why are we here? How will we get there?
Seems to me that open theism is an attempt to explain why things are so screwed up, and it isn't God's fault...and the outcome is not His fault if it turns out bad, But He gets all the glory if it turns out good.
To hell with all that!
I'll take the good. Thank you.
Well.... if God's knowledge is truly exhaustive then its that knowledge itself that closes the future to what is contained in that knowledge.
And here is how.... if everything that has ever happened or will ever happen has always been contained within God's exhaustive foreknowledge then there will be NOTHING that can ever happen outside of that knowledge and therefore the future is closed to other possibilities not contained within that foreknowledge.
logos_x
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That's good.
If God's exaustive knowledge results in the reconciliation of all creation, then it is very good.
God isn't the ultimate gambler...He knows that He can do it.
God will be all in all when it's all completed. There are no other possibilities...and I have no problem with that.
Well... I don't know how you made the jump there but....
Do you agree now that exhaustive foreknowledge closes the future?
Christine
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You're assuming it does not exist to God. Do you have any scriptural support for this assumption?
Well if God knew everything prior to it occuring as I believe, then it logically follows that would include Nineveh's repentance. In Jonah 3:4 (" And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.") we see what Jonah preached. This was not a prophecy but instead a warning. The number forty in scripture referrs to probation, not prophecy. When you warn someone that they are going to be punished if they don't straighten up, they typically straighten up. The Ninevite's listened to God's warning because they didn't want to be punished with destruction. God's warning served it's purpose as the Ninevites repented, just as God knew would happen upon hearing the warning.
If God was going to retract His judgement on David, wouldn't God have done it as soon as David expressed remorse?
1 Samuel 12:13 "And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die."
:doh: I suppose David wrote the following verses prior to becoming an Open Theist?
Psalm 139:16 " Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them."
Psalm 147:5 "Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite."
Do you think God can believe action A will happen and then action A does not happen?
God knows everything that is going to happen before it is all said and done.
Yes, God knows everything that is going to happen for eternity and after. I can't think of any place where it says man would have that kind of knowledge, so I have to say no, we will not have that sort of knowledge.
You would say that God "changed His mind" in the case of Jonah and the Ninevites, but how do you Jonah wasn't a false prophet?
How do you know God won't "change His mind" about having a rapture and tribulation?
logos_x
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If it means it closes the future for God, and that it is settled and considered "good" in God's eyes...yes.
If you are saying that anyone's personal destiny places them outside of God's will..then no, because that is not what God has said would be the case when it's all done.
God..in His exaustive foreknowledge, is successful in the complete restitution of all things. He redeems "all things".
If you want to discribe that as a "closed future"...OK.
I'm not so sure those are appropiate words to describe anything about what God is doing. But I understand what you mean.
Arminians believe that God can see into the future, and that He knows who and who will not choose Him.
Neither of them do. They claim that God can influence anyone's will. But He does not force anything on anyone. Not because He is unable, but because He is unwilling.
No one is able to resist His grace, when they expwerience it. But I believe people are able to resist experiencing it. That is one reason I am not a Calvinist.
It seems that you do not truly understand Arminianism, or Open Theism, Steve.
It is not a truth. And Open Theism is the most middle ground that I have found between Calvinism and Arminianism. People's hearts are hard. And they do not always respond to God. But He desires that none should persih, so He works to bring us to Him, at whatever cost, outside of removing free will, for His desire that we truly love Him is above His desire that we do not perish.
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No. Open Theism says that the future is open for all.
Prove that it exists to God.
How was that not a prophecy? Jonah gave a specific time. And He also saod, "...will be..." That indicates that it was a prophesy that it would come to pass. And there weren't any unlesses, either.
Yes. But God would have had to send Nathan back to let David know that his son would not die.
And?
All this says is that God had a design for David, and knew how He wanted to make him, in the womb. It's the same as Jeremiah's "You formed me together, in my mother's womb."
So what if His understanding is infinite? None of this means that He knows the future. It only means that He completely understands that which exists, exhaustively.
No. He can believe that action A might happen, and then it doesn't. But He will also know that action B is a possiility. As well as action C and D and E and so on and so forth.
Nope. I don't buy it.
That's a lot to know, isn't it?
Because Jonah told Nineveh that God had changed His mind, before the 4o days were up. Not after the fact.
Because those are things He has decided to make happen, and bring about. He will do what he has to do to bring them about.
No. Open Theism says that God doesn't know the future exhaustively. However, He does know what He is going to do, and what He has planned. He knows when He is going to do them.
logos_x
New member
Some things are true whether you believe them or not.
It is not a truth that you have recieved...but it is nevertheless true.
If Open Theism were true, God lets us down just when we need Him the most. our greatest need is a change in our stubborn will. God either cannot, or will not meet us, on this, the level of our greatest need.
God's grace can only be resisted if God wants to teach us lessons that could be learned no other way. But ultimately, God's grace is undefeatable.
Both Calvinism and Open Theism are built upon the false foundation of "endless hell." When this foundation has been replaced, the differences between them become irrelevant.
The profanity of the doctrine of "endless suffering in hell" is also part of the black background upon which God will paint His glorious masterpiece. Without fail, God will, in due time, transform all deceptions, delusions, and false doctrines, into something better that they temporarily prevailed than if they had not. And He will do this for everyone, without exception.
Prove it.
You grossly misunderstand Open Theism. Maybe we could get together and discuss it at length, sometime.
logos_x
New member
I have, repeatedly.
Just as effectively as anyone has "proven" their "Open Theism" must be true, or their "Calvinism" must be true.
I don't think I misunderstand it at all.
The only point I've made that you would not concur with is that you believe that the lake of fire destroys Hades...other than that, you've said that God stops reaching for men at physical death and they get no more chances, that God will not compel or enforce His will at the expense of man's so called "free" will, and you limit God's success to only those who have voluntarily surrendered their will to His before they die.
Pretty much what everyone else says that are stuck in the "God is going to punish beyond anything you've seen before and beyond without end" structure. I'm saying it's time to scrap that completely and reform what was believed before "endless torments" became the prevalent view.
Either God can save everyone or He can't.
If He can, He will, and nothing can stop that.
If He can't...that would be a very odd thing, God made a situation that He Himself could not complete. He made a mistake...and billions pay the price for that.
There is no middle ground.
I believe He can do it.
Most do not.
But...I'll be happy to discuss this with you sometime.
God_Is_Truth
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what makes you think that just because he can, he will?