Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[Clete]

Jim,

I just read your last post, and I of course disagree. I wish to tread lightly here though because you and I seem to get along great as long as we aren't discussing Open Theism and if we have to get all mad at each other I’d rather just agree to disagree. So keeping that in mind, let's see if we can’t find a way of exploring this issue that is decidedly less emotional that what we have done in the past. The syllogistic approach comes to mind, let's try that first.

You state that the idea of God creating a universe in which He does not know the future is logically incoherent; that it would be the equivalent of His making a perfectly round sphere with sharp corners or a rock that He can’t lift or whatever.
Now I understand intuitively why God could not make a perfectly round sphere with sharp corners, it's because the idea violates the law of non-contradiction; sharp corners and roundness are mutually exclusive. What I do not see is how the idea of God creating an open future is logically self-contradictory. Please explain. Show me the syllogism!

Umm - Please!


Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by logos_x

I agree.

:thumb:

Nevertheless....doing the "undoable", that is, saving everyone through their "free will", is precisely what He will accomplish.

Univeralism is a topic for another thread I think.

Your own argument says that God would not make a situation that He himself could not do.

No not quite. God could not make, not would not make, big difference.

God has seen the end from the begining...and He resolves it. In the end God is "all in all", death is dead, hell is destroyed, and every tear is wiped away...
Impossible? Undoable?
We are talking about the creator of the universe here.
The word impossible...when applied to God, or His universe...is quite without meaning.

Okay, it seems you are trying to use this as some osrt of argument for universalism which if so, it's a pretty bad one. Nothing you said even comes close to logically requiring such a belief.
Further, in regards to the word impossible being quite meaingless to God, I have one question for you. Is it possible for God to hook up with Satan and be his best friend and buddy in crime?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by SOTK

It doesn't exist for me and for you, but I think it definitely does for God. Why is it such a stretch to believe God is powerful enough to be able to know the future? If He can make the universe and everything in it, why would you think knowing the future would be impossible for Him or that it wouldn't exist for Him? This is what I have meant by logic.

Okay, you question Calvinism because of Freewill, but also question the OV because of God's limited foreknowledge.

It sounds like the argument underneath the ideas that you're moving back and forth is the nature of time itself.

There's a few different ways of looking at this:

1) God is outside of Time.

This means that the universe exists as kind of a 4-dimensional sculpture that God has created. He views it as all of space-time in one instant. It is a singularity. Time, in this view, is part of the structure of the universe, or the medium through which existence passes.

This brings up some problems, though. That 4D sculpture that represents the universe-- it had to be created. That means it has a beginning. So how does something get created when part of that creation IS Time? It doesn't really make sense for something in a non-linear environment to have a starting point.

Creation is a type of change. Change is dependent upon Time. How then can something be created when Time itself is a part of that creation?




2) God is "in" Time, but can time travel when He wants to in order to see the future.

Well, if you can't see the problems inherent in that theological view, I don't know what to tell you. God cheats?



3) God is neither outside or inside Time because time is not a thing.

In this view, Time is NOT an element of Creation. It is not a medium through which existence passes. It is not a "thing." It is merely a concept. It's a name that we've given to an idea.

Things change. That's one of the truest things that we witness. "Time" is simply how we describe the universe's constant state of change-- or what we could otherwise call "Life."






Now, is it limiting of God's power to say that He does not know the future in its entirety? Only if one subscribes to #1 or #2. For someone with the 3rd view, the future is not something that exists. It is a non-thing because time is simply a word describing an idea.

So, I guess you might want to examine your concept of time and figure out which makes most sense to you. Then you'll be able to figure out if that view limits God's power or not.

 

[Clete]

SOTK,
I've already responded to much of this in my previous post to you but I just saw this so I'll add a bit to what I said...

Originally posted by SOTK

The Open View theology does seem to place limits on God's power. You many not want to admit it, but it does. The Open View states that God can't know the future. As Clete said, God can make educated guesses. I choose to believe that God doesn't guess at anything.

Well it's more than a guess because God isn't just sitting idly by watching things happen. He is intimately involved and is able to influence and even manipulate individuals in order to bring about that which He desires to have happen. It's not like the weather man making educated guesses about something over which he has no control whatsoever.

Calling knowing the future "illogical" because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't wash with me either. I don't compare human logic to God at all. The Open View theology seems to want to do that.

There is no such thing as "human logic"! This is a very important point. Logic is logic, something is either logical or it is not. Something is either contradictory or it is not, something is either knowable or it is not. It makes no difference whether a person is human, Martian, Vulcan, or divine, if something cannot be know then it cannot be known. If God knows it, then it is knowable. If humans cannot know it but God can, then it is still knowable. Logic is as logic is; the person using it is irrelevant.
Besides that, the fact that the future doesn't exist is not really the best reason to give as to why God cannot know it exhaustively. The reason why He cannot know it is because of free will. If we cannot choose to do or to do otherwise then we are not free. If the future is known by God (or by anyone else for that matter) then our ability to do otherwise is an illusion at best and so, therefore, is our freedom. If we are not free, and God punishes or rewards us for actions we did not choose to do, God is unjust. God is not unjust! Therefore, we must be free and our future actions must be unknown and unknowable, even to God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Hilston, i'm gonna turn this one over to Clete. he phrased my questions perfectly so i'm gonna sit and watch this one until further questions come up.

 

[Hilston]

God is infinite, completely free of limits and finite boundaries.
All of creation, without exception, is finite.
Therefore, God's knowledge of His finite creation is exhaustive.

According to Open Theists, could God, if He wanted to, know the future exhaustively without being unjust?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston

God's knowledge of His finite creation is exhaustive.

Then why would He claim that there are things He did not know?

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Sozo

Is it possible for God to deny Himself? Lie?

In order for God to have exhaustive knowledge of future events, He would have to lie.

I'm not following how you got from "point A" to "point B." What makes you think God would have to lie?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Christine

I'm not following how you got from "point A" to "point B." What makes you think God would have to lie?

For the reason I stated above. He would have to lie if He claimed that He knew all things concerning future events, when He has already claimed He did not.

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by Sozo

For the reason I stated above. He would have to lie if He claimed that He knew all things concerning future events, when He has already claimed He did not.

Where in the Bible has Christ said He doesn't know the future? scriptural references please.

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Sozo

Then why would He claim that there are things He did not know?

"And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."

Hmm. Good point. The verse you quoted seems to indicate that God not only is clueless about what's going on, He doesn't even know if He can trust His own ears. And He can't even just look and see. He has to send some angels to investigate.

For some reason, this Idiot God was just bumbling along in the universe, when all of sudden, He heard something.

"Hey, what's that noise? It sounds like Sodom and Gomorrah are grievously sinning! But how can I be sure if My ears are trustworthy? I can't just look and see for MySelf because eyeballs are not to be trusted either. So I will send some angels to investigate and they will report back to me. I sure hope My ears work properly when I hear the report. I also hope My rational faculties properly process the information that is reported by the angels."

No wonder He changes His mind all the time.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by Hilston
God is infinite, completely free of limits and finite boundaries.

As stated, I would agree with two caveats.
1) God is, in fact, confined to the limitations of reality, whatever those limitations might be.
2) He is limited in whatever way in which He chooses to limit Himself. For example if God does not want to be a first person witness of the actions of men in the back room of your local homo saloon, He doesn't have to be. No one can make Him look at something which He does not wish too look at. If you doubt that such self-limitation is possible then simply look at the incarnation. God intentionally shed Himself of some of His divine attributes and became a man (and is still a man to this day by the way).

Would you agree? If not, please explain.

All of creation, without exception, is finite.

Agreed, the question then becomes, "Does the future exist? Is it a part of creation?"

Therefore, God's knowledge of His finite creation is exhaustive.

Given your premises, stated as you stated them this conclusion would follow. However given that the premises don't cover all the bases I don't think your syllogism is convincing.

According to Open Theists, could God, if He wanted to, know the future exhaustively without being unjust?

Yes, if He had decided He wasn't going to punish or reward us for the things we do then He could have created a universe where all actions were locked in place and the future was "closed". Why He would want to do such a thing is another question.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Christine

Where in the Bible has Christ said He doesn't know the future? scriptural references please.

Not to be picky... "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
As stated, I would agree with two caveats.
1) God is, in fact, confined to the limitations of reality, whatever those limitations might be.

Then God is not infinite in your view.

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
2) He is limited in whatever way in which He chooses to limit Himself.

Then God is not infinite in your view.

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
For example if God does not want to be a first person witness of the actions of men in the back room of your local homo saloon, He doesn't have to be.

How does the infinite God remove Himself from finite reality? It's a contradiction.

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
No one can make Him look at something which He does not wish too look at.

There is nowhere in the created universe that God is not looking. An infinite God cannot "look away" from finite reality. It's a contradiction.

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
If you doubt that such self-limitation is possible then simply look at the incarnation. God intentionally shed Himself of some of His divine attributes and became a man (and is still a man to this day by the way).

The Second Person of the Godhead did not let go of His hold upon the universe when He became incarnate. The Lord as the ancient of Days was still governing the universe even whilst the Lord as the incarnate Son of Man was walking around in Palestine. The Word of God, the Second Person, the Voice of God, the only member of the Godhead Who speaks, verbally and audibly spoke out of the heavens in behalf of the Father, saying, "This is my beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased", even while the Word of God, Jesus of Nazareth, was being baptized in the River Jordan.

Hilston wrote: All of creation, without exception, is finite.

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Agreed, the question then becomes, "Does the future exist? Is it a part of creation?"

If the future doesn't exist as a part of creation, then it exists outside of creation, which is impossible. If the future isn't created, then it is uncreated, a term that only applies to God Himself.

Hilston asked: According to Open Theists, could God, if He wanted to, know the future exhaustively without being unjust?

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Yes, if He had decided He wasn't going to punish or reward us for the things we do then He could have created a universe where all actions were locked in place and the future was "closed".

Could God create such a universe where all actions were locked in place and the future was "closed" and still be just (i.e. righteous)?

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Sozo

Not to be picky... "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

Sozo, these words were spoken by the incarnate, pre-glorified Christ upon the earth to the regenerate of the nation of Israel. At the point where these words were uttered, Jesus Himself did not know about the Body of Christ, which was at that point a Mystery, held in silence from the foundation of the world. Before His incarnation, Christ certainly knew His own plan. After His glorification, Christ certainly knew His own plan.

 

[Caine]

This may be a little bit of a tangent, but haven't I seen people here claim that God cannot look upon sin? If this is true wouldn't that be another case where God's power is limited?

So if you are an open theist and accept this as well, God can't see the future or sin.

I'm getting really confused here could someone help?

 

[Christine]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Anyway...
There is no existing future, Christine. How could God know something that does not exist?

He's God, Lighthouse. He healed the blind and lame, made the dead alive, and performed other miracles incomprehensible to the mind of man. If God can do all that, a mere act like knowing the future should be no problem. The future doesn't exist to us mortal men, but it does exist to God.

That verse means that God was and is to come. Nothing more. And if you want to bring up prophesy, do you realize that all prophesies that God gave were about things He was going to do...things he was going to make happen.

If God's going to do something, is that not the same as making something happen? Also, are you saying that God's prophesies don't have to come true?

And, when He did not change His mind, He made these things come to pass.

Are you saying God's prophicies don't carry much weight?

I do not limit God to the mind of a human. God knows all that can be known, and He does not know that which cannot be known. He does not know that which does not exist. There is nothing pathetic about that.

Lighthouse, God knows all that can be known including future events. You are limiting him to being like man, and having no clue what will happen next. You are left to ignore and/or explain away passages like

Numbers 23:19: " God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

You say God doesn't know the future? What about this passage?

Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Christine

The future doesn't exist to us mortal men, but it does exist to God.

How do you figure?

The following verse (that you used) says otherwise...

Isaiah 46:10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"


If God is privy to the future, then they have already been done.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

in case anyone forgot, open theism says God does know the future.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=503

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

what would your marriage be like if you foreknew precisely everything your wife would ever say from the day you met? what kind of relationship would that be like?

I don't compare my relationship with my wife to my relationship with God. It's completely different. One of the problems I have with Open View so far is the Open Viewers apparent willingness to compare humanistic ideas, relationships, etc. with our ideas and relationship with God. I think they are two different things.