Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by logos_x

I agree.

Nevertheless....doing the "undoable", that is, saving everyone through their "free will", is precisely what He will accomplish.
Your own argument says that God would not make a situation that He himself could not do. God has seen the end from the begining...and He resolves it. In the end God is "all in all", death is dead, hell is destroyed, and every tear is wiped away...
Impossible? Undoable?
We are talking about the creator of the universe here.
The word impossible...when applied to God, or His universe...is quite without meaning.

Open Theism's stance is that God has not seen the end, ever...especially not from the beginning. He knows the end, because He knows what He's going to do in the end, but He does not know all the details. He does not know, for instance, who is going to be there. He knows certain people that will be there, because they are His, now. But He does not know who might be His in the future. Even if I believed Christian Universalism I would say that God does not know who will choose Him in this world...so he doesn't know who will have to go through hell to accept him. Except for those who have either already chosen Him, or are already in hell. But I don't believe in Universalism of any kind.

 

[logos_x]

Isa 46:8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 46:12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

 

[Lighthouse]

That's what I said. He knows what He will do. He knows what He has declared. But that doesn't mean He can see it.

 

[logos_x]

Ok. I'll give you that....up to a point.
How much do you think God knows about what He's doing?

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by lighthouse

There is no limit on God's power. His not knowing the unknowable is not a limit to power, nor is it a limit to knowledge. God is omnipotent, and omniscient. His not knowing the future does not limit either of those traits.

The Open View theology does seem to place limits on God's power. You many not want to admit it, but it does. The Open View states that God can't know the future. As Clete said, God can make educated guesses. I choose to believe that God doesn't guess at anything.

Calling knowing the future "illogical" because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't wash with me either. I don't compare human logic to God at all. The Open View theology seems to want to do that.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by lighthouse

That's what I said. He knows what He will do. He knows what He has declared. But that doesn't mean He can see it.

Why not? Why can't God see it? See, sounds like a limit to me.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
what else do you call God not doing anything right now about all the evil in the world when he is fully capable of stopping it?

God's not responsible for the evil in the world right now. We are. God has a plan for the evil in the world. It will happen in His time and not ours. It has nothing to do with limiting His power. It has to do with His will.

 

[Lucky]

Originally posted by SOTK

Calling knowing the future "illogical" because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't wash with me either. I don't compare human logic to God at all.

What do you mean by "comparing human logic to God"?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by logos_x

Ok. I'll give you that....up to a point.
How much do you think God knows about what He's doing?

God knows exactly what He's doing.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by SOTK

The Open View theology does seem to place limits on God's power. You many not want to admit it, but it does. The Open View states that God can't know the future. As Clete said, God can make educated guesses. I choose to believe that God doesn't guess at anything.

I agree, God does not guess.

Calling knowing the future "illogical" because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't wash with me either. I don't compare human logic to God at all. The Open View theology seems to want to do that.

It's not about the logic of it. It's about the possibillity. We may say nothing is impossible with God, but seeing that which does not exist is impossible, even for God.

Why not? Why can't God see it? See, sounds like a limit to me.

God can't see it, because it doesn't exist.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
how would he not have to know it if his knowing is the natural result of his infinite power?

I was speaking of what I believe a trait of God's is. I believe He is all powerful and a part of that power is knowing the future. In order for the future to be closed to Him, He would have had to limit His own power because the very fact that He is all powerful would have naturally resulted in Him knowing the future. As I have stated, I have a hard time believing that God would limit Himself. If I am naturally gifted at math, why would I ever limit myself in my knowledge or understanding of math? I wouldn't.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by SOTK

I was speaking of what I believe a trait of God's is. I believe He is all powerful and a part of that power is knowing the future. In order for the future to be closed to Him, He would have had to limit His own power because the very fact that He is all powerful would have naturally resulted in Him knowing the future. As I have stated, I have a hard time believing that God would limit Himself. If I am naturally gifted at math, why would I ever limit myself in my knowledge or understanding of math? I wouldn't.

Not knowing that which is non-existent is not a limit on God's power. And God being omnipotent would not result in His knowing that which does not exist.

 

[SOTK]

Originally posted by lighthouse
God can't see it, because it doesn't exist.

It doesn't exist for me and for you, but I think it definitely does for God. Why is it such a stretch to believe God is powerful enough to be able to know the future? If He can make the universe and everything in it, why would you think knowing the future would be impossible for Him or that it wouldn't exist for Him? This is what I have meant by logic.

 

[Yorzhik]

We need Christine and Hilston to weigh in.

 

[logos_x]

Originally posted by lighthouse

God knows exactly what He's doing.

Then with that we should all rejoice!
Surely we can agree on this much! :greedy:

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by SOTK

God's not responsible for the evil in the world right now. We are. God has a plan for the evil in the world. It will happen in His time and not ours. It has nothing to do with limiting His power. It has to do with His will.

God could have created a world without it though. in the same way, he could have created a closed future, one he knew perfectly and was determined beforehand.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by SOTK

I was speaking of what I believe a trait of God's is. I believe He is all powerful and a part of that power is knowing the future. In order for the future to be closed to Him, He would have had to limit His own power because the very fact that He is all powerful would have naturally resulted in Him knowing the future. As I have stated, I have a hard time believing that God would limit Himself. If I am naturally gifted at math, why would I ever limit myself in my knowledge or understanding of math? I wouldn't.

what would your marriage be like if you foreknew precisely everything your wife would ever say from the day you met? what kind of relationship would that be like?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by SOTK

If He can make the universe and everything in it, why would you think knowing the future would be impossible for Him or that it wouldn't exist for Him?

Is it possible for God to deny Himself? Lie?

In order for God to have exhaustive knowledge of future events, He would have to lie.

 

[Hilston]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
what would your marriage be like if you foreknew precisely everything your wife would ever say from the day you met? what kind of relationship would that be like?

What would your marriage be like if you never actually saw your wife? What would marriage be like if you never audibly heard her voice? What would marriage be like if you knew your wife loved others and was just as loving and devoted to them as she is to you?

Limiting God's foreknowledge because of its effect on a humanistic notion of "relationship" is unbiblical and illogical. The fact is, we just don't have the kind of relationship with the Lord that we do with humans. It's impossible, and frankly, ridiculous. Evangelicals who strive so hard to convince themselves that Jesus is like a husband or a big brother or a best friend are deluding themselves. It's no wonder that evangelicalism is so often ridiculed by the Blue-States.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
why wouldn't God have the power to create an genuinely open future?

The same reason why God wouldn't have the power to create a black-white-square-round-ball-cube.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
does God have to know? isn't he powerful enough to create a world where he didn't know?

No. It isn't a matter of being "powerful enough." It's a matter of what is logical and possible. It is neither.

Also, people need to stop using the word "responsible" when talking about God -- that includes Joan of Arcadia. God is responsible to no one; He answers to no one; is accountable to no one. He does what He wants with impunity and full carte blanche, without any accountability whatsoever.

Open Theists like to claim that God could have created the world differently, but chose not to. This is not true, based on their own premises. Open Theists do not believe a genuinely loving God would create a future that is not open. They believe it would be against His character, as they perceive it. Their God is NOT libertarianly free, being constrained by their perception of what constitutes "genuine" love and "genuine" free will. In the Open Theist world, the creature is more libertarianly free than the Creator, which is what follows whenever a human tries to create God in his own image.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by SOTK
Didn't God create the whole concept of free will Himself?

No, I don't believe so. Doesn't God Himself have freewill? God didn’t' create Himself but He did create us in His image, thus we have free will.

For example, the free will agents you made reference to? I mean, since He is the creator, He would have been responsible for creating the ability of free will, right?

Yes, God did create us with the ability to choose for ourselves, although I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

If He can create something as complicated as free will, couldn't He have the ability or power, if you will, to track the complexities of this creation?

“Track the complexities”? This sounds similar to what I said about God being able to predict our actions. Is this what you meant?

You mentioned logic. Since we are a created being, it seems to me that our logic is probably limited. We don't 'know' everything. We can't. We were created. God isn't a creation. He is all powerful. He is the creator. His ability to use and apply logic would be completely different than our ability to use and apply logic. In other words, what seems illogical or improbable to me and you might be very logical and probable for God.

No, knowledge and logic are not the same. Logic is knowledge applied according to particular rules (the law of non-contradiction for example). While I agree that God has vastly more knowledge than we do, logic is not affected by the amount of information you have. What is contradictory is contradictory whether you know a lot about it or just a little bit. I suppose that your conclusions may change if the available information changes but the rules of logic do not.
Take love for example, we know plenty enough about love to be able to say with confidence that the idea of non-volitional love is self-contradictory. That is to say, that if we do not choose to love someone then we do not love them at all. Love, by definition MUST be volitional.
Now if you suggest that we don't really know what we think we know about love, that God, knowing everything, knows something about love that we cannot know by virtue of our lower position as created beings, which may make non-volitional love a real possibility, then I submit that the entire Christian faith falls into a pit of hopeless irrationality. We cannot know anything about anything if this is, in fact, the case. And what's more, there is simply no reason to think that any such situation exists unless you are wanting to prop up predestination and the exhaustive foreknowledge of God, neither of which is are logically necessary for the Christian faith to hold together.

Resting in Him,
Clete