Omniscience means fatalism.

Ask Mr. Religion

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It was something I have prayed for and hoped towards for years, and it was not as a Calvinist.
What did your prayers consist of exactly in this situation?

Were they a plea to God to wrestle with that person's free will such that they would choose rightly?
Were they a plea to God to woo that person such that they might eventually "see the light"?
Were they a plea to God to order things as they happen—since God does not truly know what will happen until they happen—such that things will fall out favorably, albeit these "falling out of things" dare not impinge upon one's Holy of Holies, that is, their own autonomous free will?

Perhaps, yours were prayers that the will of God be done and that your prayers be aligned to the will of God? After all, if we do not pray in accordance with the will of God, why is God obliged to even hear such a prayer?

If so, then we need a more fulsome understanding of exactly what we mean when speaking of the will of God. This is necessary because God commands many things that we ought to do, yet we do not, but there are things that God actually wills volitionally, that we cannot not do otherwise (Deut. 29:29). In fact, in these matters the fact that we cannot not do otherwise in no way implies we had no choice, rather it implies that God's providence included all our liberty of spontaneity and concurred with the same.

So, yes we are to be praying always, the second Person of the Triune Godhead, the Holy Spirit, aiding us often when we groan, unable to give voice our prayers. But to use that "praying always" as an "out" to escape examination of our prayers is to deny what we ought to be doing when we pray aright.

AMR
 

Rosenritter

New member
What did your prayers consist of exactly in this situation?

As this was prayer and a spirit of prayer over an extended period of time, there is no "exactly" ... but I'll try to answer as well as possible.

Were they a plea to God to wrestle with that person's free will such that they would choose rightly?
No.

Were they a plea to God to woo that person such that they might eventually "see the light"?
No, not in the manner that you seem to describe or imply.

Were they a plea to God to order things as they happen—since God does not truly know what will happen until they happen—such that things will fall out favorably, albeit these "falling out of things" dare not impinge upon one's Holy of Holies, that is, their own autonomous free will?

A well-formed question does not build itself upon multiple multiple assumptions or veiled accusations, any one of which renders the answer false. When you are willing to form the question fairly that also shall be answered, but in the meantime the answer to that question as it was asked is also "No."

Perhaps, yours were prayers that the will of God be done and that your prayers be aligned to the will of God? After all, if we do not pray in accordance with the will of God, why is God obliged to even hear such a prayer?

It is written that God wills that we have a close enough relationship with him that we are confident enough to ask him to alter his will as regarding circumstance and effects. And yes, we are told that God is willing to answer such a prayer.

Luke 11:10-13 KJV
(10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
(11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
(12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
(13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?


In this example, Jesus did not tell us to ask that our will be aligned to find peace and contentment with stones, serpents, and scorpions, but we are told to ask of God. If this applies even to the Holy Spirit, how much more as regarding bread, fish, or an egg?

2 Corinthians 12:8-9 KJV
(8) For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paul first asked that his thorn in the flesh be taken from him. God did not chastise him for asking, even though his ultimate answer was that Paul must bear this particular burden.

Genesis 18:32 KJV
(32) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

God had already stated his will was to destroy Sodom, yet God was willing to hear Abraham as he petitioned him multiple times to potentially save the city from destruction.

And lest a wrong conclusion be drawn from only these negative examples cited, let's not forget the positive example where Nineveh appealed to God for him to change his will to destroy their city.

James 1:6-7 KJV
(6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
(7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Throughout my years of interacting/communicating with those who lean towards Calvinistic belief, I have noticed a few, common-denominattors. They are usually, (The majority of the time) people who have HUGE egos, arrogant, reasonably well educated, argumentative, and unusually angry/hostile. There have been one or two exceptions, to be honest. I was discussing Calvinism/Calvinists last night with someone I attended High School with. She related to me a story about the time she attended a Church with Calvinistic leanings. (Her and her Husband) My friend and her Husband had been attending the Church for about a month and were invited to a meeting with the 'higher-ups.' (Perhaps to find out their beliefs?) My friend's Husband was discussing something with them and using Scripture. At some point, her husband had the 'audacity' to disagree with something regarding 'The Elect.' Two of the Church members became extremely agitated/angry and one of them stood up and leaned towards my friend and her Husband. Things got heated. After this meeting, my friend and her Husband attended the Church on two other occasions, however, they were treated as if they weren't welcome, so they never returned.

I don't really understand why 'Calvinists' seem to have an angry attitude towards anyone who dares to disagree with them, however, I've experienced their behavior.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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AMR, you posted: "Why not take the time to write down your prayers in detail and examine them?" Were you being sarcastic? Prayer is, communicating with God. It's not meant to be written down as if you were adding to a diary. If you're like some people, you pray to God at random times of the day and night and have regular prayer in the morning and at the close of day. If we were to treat our prayers like some kind of Psychological analysis of our innermost thoughts and chosen words, it would be like a College assignment, etc. Hopefully, you weren't being snide, sarcastic or fictitious?
 

MennoSota

New member
Throughout my years of interacting/communicating with those who lean towards Calvinistic belief, I have noticed a few, common-denominattors. They are usually, (The majority of the time) people who have HUGE egos, arrogant, reasonably well educated, argumentative, and unusually angry/hostile. There have been one or two exceptions, to be honest. I was discussing Calvinism/Calvinists last night with someone I attended High School with. She related to me a story about the time she attended a Church with Calvinistic leanings. (Her and her Husband) My friend and her Husband had been attending the Church for about a month and were invited to a meeting with the 'higher-ups.' (Perhaps to find out their beliefs?) My friend's Husband was discussing something with them and using Scripture. At some point, her husband had the 'audacity' to disagree with something regarding 'The Elect.' Two of the Church members became extremely agitated/angry and one of them stood up and leaned towards my friend and her Husband. Things got heated. After this meeting, my friend and her Husband attended the Church on two other occasions, however, they were treated as if they weren't welcome, so they never returned.

I don't really understand why 'Calvinists' seem to have an angry attitude towards anyone who dares to disagree with them, however, I've experienced their behavior.

I don't really understand why 'Pelagians' seem to have an angry attitude towards anyone who dares to disagree with them, however, I've experienced their behavior.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Throughout my years of interacting/communicating with those who lean towards Calvinistic belief, I have noticed a few, common-denominattors. They are usually, (The majority of the time) people who have HUGE egos, arrogant, reasonably well educated, argumentative, and unusually angry/hostile. There have been one or two exceptions, to be honest. I was discussing Calvinism/Calvinists last night with someone I attended High School with. She related to me a story about the time she attended a Church with Calvinistic leanings. (Her and her Husband) My friend and her Husband had been attending the Church for about a month and were invited to a meeting with the 'higher-ups.' (Perhaps to find out their beliefs?) My friend's Husband was discussing something with them and using Scripture. At some point, her husband had the 'audacity' to disagree with something regarding 'The Elect.' Two of the Church members became extremely agitated/angry and one of them stood up and leaned towards my friend and her Husband. Things got heated. After this meeting, my friend and her Husband attended the Church on two other occasions, however, they were treated as if they weren't welcome, so they never returned.

I don't really understand why 'Calvinists' seem to have an angry attitude towards anyone who dares to disagree with them, however, I've experienced their behavior.

Although I have similar experience with regards to Calvinism, in the interests of fairness, it isn't limited to just the topics of Calvinism. But with Calvinism particularly which says that it believes that understanding (or lack thereof) is ordained and commanded and controlled by God, why would there be any upset? Just as the example of the Arminian that prays for God to change the Calvinist's minds, the Calvinist who becomes upset at someone who disagrees is just as ironic, indicating that they they (both examples) do not really believe their own doctrine.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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AMR, you posted: "Why not take the time to write down your prayers in detail and examine them?"
Write them down or just think seriously about them, it matters not in the context of the post to which you are responding. The point of my earlier post (again, context matters) is to examine one's self to determine if how one prays comports with what one claims to believe: lex orandi lex credendi.

That said, and on the matter of prayer in general (context now shifting), I would think not a few of us keep prayer lists and consider what or who is being prayed about or for, accompanied by what is actually being asked in prayer.

Spoiler

Prayer List Suggestions

CHRISTIAN LEADERS, PASTORS
EVANGELISM
FAMILY
FRIENDS
GOVERNMENT LEADERS
GRIEVING
ILLNESSES OF OTHERS
IMPORTANT EVENTS
LOCAL CHURCH
MINISTRIES
MISSIONS LIST
NEEDED PERSONAL QUALITIES
NEW BELIEVERS
ONGOING ILLNESSES
PERSONAL LIFE
PERSONAL REQUESTS FROM OTHERS
PRESENT PROBLEMS
SPIRITUAL WARFARE
UPCOMING MINISTRIES AND VISION
USA
WEEKLY WORSHIP
WORK RELATED
WORLD


AMR
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hallelujah!
Funny how people don't like the label when it falls on them.
Scripture teaches God's choosing, election and predestination. You don't need to read anything by Calvin to see this truth.

Funny how people choose their own definitions of those terms. You seem to think your definitions are correct when, in truth, you base them upon your own preconceived ideas...whether they came from some teacher or the Bible itself. Clearly, you think you have the truth while others don't. I smell a great deal of pride coming from you.
 

MennoSota

New member
Funny how people choose their own definitions of those terms. You seem to think your definitions are correct when, in truth, you base them upon your own preconceived ideas...whether they came from some teacher or the Bible itself. Clearly, you think you have the truth while others don't. I smell a great deal of pride coming from you.
LOL, you're just pouting because you imagined your thoughts were original when in fact Pelagius spoke for you centuries before.
Do you want to get back to the subject?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
LOL, you're just pouting because you imagined your thoughts were original when in fact Pelagius spoke for you centuries before.
Do you want to get back to the subject?

See? You've proven my point. You know nothing about what I believe. You've gotten so adept at name calling and labels you've forgotten who you are. You're nothing but a pompous old goat who imagines he is the first old goat to ever come here and slap labels on those he knows nothing about.:dhelm:
 

JudgeRightly

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See? You've proven my point. You know nothing about what I believe. You've gotten so adept at name calling and labels you've forgotten who you are. You're nothing but a pompous old goat who imagines he is the first old goat to ever come here and slap labels on those he knows nothing about.:dhelm:
Yup. He just accused me of believing that time is a being above God. I don't even believe time is an entity, let alone that it's above, below, or on the same footing as God.

He's just a :troll:
 

MennoSota

New member
See? You've proven my point. You know nothing about what I believe. You've gotten so adept at name calling and labels you've forgotten who you are. You're nothing but a pompous old goat who imagines he is the first old goat to ever come here and slap labels on those he knows nothing about.:dhelm:
You imagine I care to know your heresy.
 

Rosenritter

New member
I don't understand how you can be such a racist.

Yeah, he's such a racist.

220px-Speed_Racer_promotional_image.jpg
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Making plaintive and strident claims to the effect "I cannot be labeled" is but self-righteousness and ignorance of church history. It only feeds one's humanistic sense of individuality and autonomy. In fact, most of these sorts will quickly claim to have no man-made creed, rather just the Bible, as if what they just said is not actually a creed—Just Me and My Bible—made by, er, a man.

I disagree. I submit there are more believers outside any particular "label" than there are who fit in a particular label. These are people who read and study their Bibles before they ever look into "church history" or attend Bible college...not needing to fit in to a group. It is not self-righteousness. It is Bible rightness. It's why we have so many non-denominational churches and so many home churches. In fact, I've found there is more agreement among those who don't fit in any particular group. Look how many difference you have just among Calvinists. :idunno:
 
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