Nuclear War: Pros and Cons.

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Religious zealots speak to problems of faith.

Oh, you must have misread my post and thought I was speculating about the past.
Neither of us can see the future, though the lesson of history is that men will use any means, fly any flag in their will to power and that any power unchecked, in any name, is capable of horror.

So religious zealots don't speak to problems of faith, but to the nature of that unchecked zeal, else they wouldn't so resemble one another regardless of faith or the lack thereof.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Was there really any need to drop two nukes on Japan and where civilians were heavy casualties?
Many were and are convinced it broke the Emperors will and that without that a greater loss of life would have followed.

I don't see how it would be possible to fight this enemy after that fashion for any number of reasons, even if there was a justification.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
PROS.

When Israel bombs the IRAN Nuclear facility , there will be a Mideast war

in which ISRAEL will gain part of Egypt.
 

TomO

Get used to it.
Hall of Fame
"Us"? Who's "us" the 'USA'? Do you honestly think that you could launch a first strike nuclear offensive and not get one in turn? Are you that simplistically minded on the subject that you think you can just send a coupla nukes towards the Middle East and there wouldn't be any repercussions?

:plain: Yeah see, I'm pretty sure that was her point. Get a grip.

You wanna try watching "Threads" and see just how horrific the ramifications of any nuclear exchange would actually be.

:yawn: Nah...Thanks, but we've got our own eighties, made-for-T.V., docudramas to fuss over.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
For the record, lots of people deserve to die. So the selective morality of the left shown here in the thread shows they don't mean what they say. You are either for against justice.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
:yawn: Nah...Thanks, but we've got our own eighties, made-for-T.V., docudramas to fuss over.

A sad attempt to defame Reagan. Which reminds me, the next nuclear blast will be as described by Tom Clancy in his novel The Sum of All Fears.

Hussein absolutely and without question would have given one to al-qaeda to detonate against the US. But Iraqis came to their senses and stretched his neck after we ousted them.
 

resodko

BANNED
Banned
Except nobody "wins" a nuclear war.

(checks history books)

nope - sez right here that we won ww2 in the only war that's ever gone nuclear


Was there really any need to drop two nukes on Japan and where civilians were heavy casualties?

wiki said:
On Monday, August 6, 1945, at 8:15 a.m., the nuclear bomb "Little Boy" was dropped on Hiroshima by an American B-29 bomber, the Enola Gay, flown by Colonel Paul Tibbets,[15] directly killing an estimated 80,000 people. By the end of the year, injury and radiation brought the total number of deaths to 90,000–166,000 [16]

wiki said:
Nagasaki Within less than a second after the detonation, the north of the city was destroyed. Roughly 39,000–80,000 people were killed.

allied forces killed = 0


vs


wiki said:
Operation Downfall (planned invasion of japanese mainland)



Estimated casualties[edit]

Because the U.S. military planners assumed "that operations in this area will be opposed not only by the available organized military forces of the Empire, but also by a fanatically hostile population",[11] high casualties were thought to be inevitable, but nobody knew with certainty how high. Several people made estimates, but they varied widely in numbers, assumptions, and purposes, which included advocating for and against the invasion. Afterwards, they were reused in the debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Casualty estimates were based on the experience of the preceding campaigns, drawing different lessons:
In a letter sent to Gen. Curtis LeMay from Gen. Lauris Norstad, when LeMay assumed command of the B-29 force on Guam, Norstad told LeMay that if an invasion took place, it would cost the US "half a million" dead.[48]
In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, the figures of 7.45 casualties/1,000 man-days and 1.78 fatalities/1,000 man-days were developed. This implied that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities.[49]
A study done by Adm. Nimitz's staff in May estimated 49,000 U.S casualties in the first 30 days, including 5,000 at sea.[50] A study done by General MacArthur's staff in June estimated 23,000 US casualties in the first 30 days and 125,000 after 120 days.[51] When these figures were questioned by General Marshall, MacArthur submitted a revised estimate of 105,000, in part by deducting wounded men able to return to duty.[52]
In a conference with President Truman on June 18, Marshall, taking the Battle of Luzon as the best model for Olympic, thought the Americans would suffer 31,000 casualties in the first 30 days (and ultimately 20% of Japanese casualties, which implied a total of 70,000 casualties).[53] Adm. Leahy, more impressed by the Battle of Okinawa, thought the American forces would suffer a 35% casualty rate (implying an ultimate toll of 268,000).[54] Admiral King thought that casualties in the first 30 days would fall between Luzon and Okinawa, i.e., between 31,000 and 41,000.[54] Of these estimates, only Nimitz's included losses of the forces at sea, though kamikazes had inflicted 1.78 fatalities per kamikaze pilot in the Battle of Okinawa,[55] and troop transports off Kyūshū would have been much more exposed.

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson's staff by William Shockley estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities.

The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.[2]

Outside the government, well-informed civilians were also making guesses. Kyle Palmer, war correspondent for the Los Angeles Times, said half a million to a million Americans would die by the end of the war. Herbert Hoover, in a memorandums submitted to Truman and Stimson, also estimated 500,000 to 1,000,000 fatalities, and those were believed to be conservative estimates; but it is not known if Hoover discussed these specific figures in his meetings with Truman. The chief of the Army Operations division thought them "entirely too high" under "our present plan of campaign."[56]

The Battle of Okinawa ran up 72,000 US casualties in 82 days, of whom 12,510 were killed or missing (this is conservative, because it excludes several thousand US soldiers who died after the battle indirectly, from their wounds.) The entire island of Okinawa is 464 sq mi (1,200 km2). If the US casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had been only 5% as high per unit area as it was at Okinawa, the US would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).[citation needed]

Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals (awarded for combat casualties) were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan; the number exceeded that of all American military casualties of the 65 years following the end of World War II, including the Korean and Vietnam Wars. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock.[57] There were so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan were able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to soldiers wounded on the field.[57]
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
:plain: Yeah see, I'm pretty sure that was her point. Get a grip.

What exactly do you think her 'point' was exactly? On an adjoining thread Tambora seems to think that the 'solution' to terrorism is to nuke which is not only insane in the face of inevitable retaliation but rather ironic as it would be committing an act of terrorism itself.

:yawn: Nah...Thanks, but we've got our own eighties, made-for-T.V., docudramas to fuss over.

Seen it. On an actual scientific level it was nowhere near 'Threads' as to the short and long term ramifications of nuclear war.
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
For the record, lots of people deserve to die. So the selective morality of the left shown here in the thread shows they don't mean what they say. You are either for against justice.

Eh, with you that could mean anyone from homosexuals to murderers and who knows what. Your yardstick for 'the right to life' is not exactly abundant is it. Please do explain how nuking a country along with civilian inhabitants - including women and children - amounts to "justice".

Not if one side is disarmed. Your stupidity is truly amazing.

Wow, just when I don't think it's possible for you to display any more ignorance you actually go ahead and surprise me again...

"One side"?! Are you seriously this thick? You honestly think that if you somehow "disarmed" say Iran you wouldn't be getting reprisals from other nations??

You complete and utter crank.

:doh:
 

Lon

Well-known member
So you agree that nuclear war is essentially M.A.D.?
I 'think' we have nukes so we don't ever have to use them.

I would think, when the rubber meets the road, no TOL member would want to be in charge of the button.
 

Christian Liberty

Well-known member
Hmm, can't actually think of any pros and yet some elements here think that sending nukes into the Middle East is somehow a viable solution to ending any militant Islamist terrorist threat to the West.

How many people here think it's as insane an 'option' as volunteering to go to a guillotine for a haircut? Not only would there be a mass murder of civilian people in any region targeted it would result in automatic reprisals resulting in mass slaughter in turn if not flat out global war.

Also, how would it be any less an act of extremist terrorism to launch such an attack even if there wasn't the threat of reprisal?

Thoughts anyone?

I completely disagree with this nonsensical post. Going to the guillotine for a haircut wouldn't be nearly as much of an overreaction;)

For the record, lots of people deserve to die. So the selective morality of the left shown here in the thread shows they don't mean what they say. You are either for against justice.

Its one thing to say certain people should die for their crimes. Its another thing to say people should be killed simply for living in the same country as terrorists. The former is a valid argument, the other is twisted and evil.
 

Jedidiah

New member
so yeah, nuking the japs worked out pretty good for us


and for them
I tend to agree. I've never heard any WWII vets condemning that decision/those decisions. The moral of the story is, don't ever put a nuclear power in the position of having to nuke you for your own good. :up:
 
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shagster01

New member
(checks history books)

nope - sez right here that we won ww2 in the only war that's ever gone nuclear

:mock: Resodko. He thinks it's still the 1940's.

We also won the Revolutionary war. Maybe you support fighting with Muskets too?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Is it just me, or is Shagster the stupidest poster left kicking in these parts?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Is it just me, or is Shagster the stupidest poster left kicking in these parts?

Yep. He is trying to take the idiot of TOL title from CL. CL took it from Traditio a while ago. In fact, he isn't posting as much and Traditio was showing signs of changing his tune. That usually happens when millennials start working and see that paycheck sucked down from taxes and they know where those taxes are going because they argued for it at one point.
 
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