No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Gary K]

Maybe I see things in the text you dont. I surely cant help that.

Then show where the text actually says what you say it does. All I see is that you're reading your conclusions into it. That's where what you're seeing in the text comes from because you can't actually prove your point from the text or it's context.

Here is the text and the context. Now point out where, in this passage of scripture, that it says humanity has no power of choice and that the drawing power of God's love destroys it. If you can't find it, it means you're reading your theology into the text.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

 

[beloved57]

ffree

Then show where the text actually says what you say it does.

I did, you said you dont understand.

 

[Gary K]

ffree



I did, you said you dont understand.

No. That's not what you did. You asserted, without evidence from either the text itself, or from the context surrounding the text, that it says we humans don't have the power of choice. There is nothing in the concept of "drawing" that leads to your conclusion. The concept of "drawing" Jesus used here implies the ability to choose. And all you've done so far is just repeat your conclusion. You've shown no evidence to support it. You didn't even point out in the passage I quoted for you where it is that you draw your conclusions.

Here is the definition of drawing from Wester's dictionary.

2. To influence to move or tend toward one's self; to
exercise an attracting force upon; to call towards itself;
to attract; hence, to entice; to allure; to induce.
[1913 Webster]

The very definition of the word denies the use of overwhelming force which is the determinist's position:

WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) (wn)
determinist
n 1: anyone who submits to the belief that they are powerless to
change their destiny [syn: fatalist, determinist,
predestinarian, predestinationist]

The only way around the definitions of the words used is to ignore the definitions of the words and create your own definitions. In other words, deny the very meaning of the English language itself. I find that a very odd way to recognize truth. It implies, to me, that you're denying the truth of what Jesus said as you're attempting to change the meaning of the English language to fit your theology.

 

[beloved57]

feeff

No. That's not what you did.

It is what I did, from the text. You stated you dont understand it. Have you read the entire thread ?

 

[God's Truth]

Yes God is able to graff them in not man freewill. Alse all men naturally are imprisoned into unbelief Rom 11:32

³² For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That is about God bounding all to the same place so He can have mercy ON THEM ALL. Another scripture that disproves your doctrine.

 

[God's Truth]

Maybe I see things in the text you dont. I surely cant help that.

You can help it. How badly do you want the truth?

 

[Gary K]

feeff



It is what I did, from the text. You stated you dont understand it. Have you read the entire thread ?

So, in other words, you just redefined the English language to see what you wanted to see for the definitions of the wording of the passage lend no creedence to your belief.

I've read John Calvin and been in plenty of debates with Calvinists. And I can't actually find your beliefs in Calvin's writings. He says that those who reject God's love frustrate His purposes. So, I've never understood why Calvinists desire to twist scripture into something it doesn't actually say or that John Calvin writings don't support. In your theology the phrase "God so loved that He gave" is reduced to God so loves to control that He's forced everyone to do what He says so He can destroy the majority of His own creation. That, in a nutshell, is what I cannot understand anyone who claims to love God doing. It's an attack upon who God is, what He's like, what love is, and an attack on the meaning of the English language all in one go.

That's not a personal attack on you as everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. You know, the power of choice that God gave humanity. I just can't understand why a Christian would choose to believe that. And yet you determinists insist that this belief praises God's love by denigrating it, by making His love a farcical concept.

 

[beloved57]

That is about God bounding all to the same place so He can have mercy ON THEM ALL. Another scripture that disproves your doctrine.

That verse informs us that man by nature is born imprisoned in unbelief. All men jew and gentile.

 

[beloved57]

So, in other words, you just redefined the English language to see what you wanted to see for the definitions of the wording of the passage lend no creedence to your belief.

I've read John Calvin and been in plenty of debates with Calvinists. And I can't actually find your beliefs in Calvin's writings. He says that those who reject God's love frustrate His purposes. So, I've never understood why Calvinists desire to twist scripture into something it doesn't actually say or that John Calvin writings don't support. In your theology the phrase "God so loved that He gave" is reduced to God so loves to control that He's forced everyone to do what He says so He can destroy the majority of His own creation. That, in a nutshell, is what I cannot understand anyone who claims to love God doing. It's an attack upon who God is, what He's like, what love is, and an attack on the meaning of the English language all in one go.

That's not a personal attack on you as everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. You know, the power of choice that God gave humanity. I just can't understand why a Christian would choose to believe that. And yet you determinists insist that this belief praises God's love by denigrating it, by making His love a farcical concept.

No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?

 

[God's Truth]

That verse informs us that man by nature is born imprisoned in unbelief. All men jew and gentile.

That is not what it means. It means all are condemned until they come to Him through faith in Jesus.

It means ALL people.

All people are bound to the same place and ALL people can be saved.

 

[God's Truth]

No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?

You don't even know what that scripture says because you are brainwashed by Calvinists.

When Jesus came to earth and had his earthly ministry, he only came for the Jews who already belonged to God by faith; the rest of the Jews were cut off and hardened until Jesus was crucified then ALL can come to him to be saved, even the Jews who had him crucified!

The people that were drawn to Jesus were drawn to him because they RECOGNIZED he was speaking the words from God.

Read the scripture more carefully---

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

 

[God's Truth]

If we don't have freewill, then God would just had programmed all people to love Him and do right.

But that is the very reason we know good from evil and have free will, because God wants us to choose to love Him.

What kind of love is it if you don't have a choice?

 

[beloved57]

That is not what it means. It means all are condemned until they come to Him through faith in Jesus.

It means ALL people.

All people are bound to the same place and ALL people can be saved.

Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !

 

[God's Truth]

Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !

No such scripture about a prison of unbelief.

 

[beloved57]

No such scripture about a prison of unbelief.

I gave you the scripture Rom 11:32

 

[Gary K]

No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?

John 6:44 does not destroy the power to choose. You're once again equating drawing/attracting with forcing. The two words that have completely different meanings. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the power to choose. One takes away the power of choice by overwhelming power. The other confirms the power of choice through the ideas of influencing, attracting, etc....

As verse 44 sets the context for verse 65 as it precedes verse 65, how can verse 65 mean the opposite of verse 44? Are you trying to say that Jesus argued against Himself on a regular basis? That He was notoriously inconsistent and didn't understand that a house divided against itself couldn't stand? It seems to me that the theology you have accepted is very muddled and inconsistent.

 

[Gary K]

Sure it does. All men are in a prison of unbelief !

If all men are in unbelief then that includes those whom Calvinists say are the elect. Well, it does unless you're going to redefine the English language again and say all == some, i.e. all is equal to some and/or all is equal to part. The theology you're promoting leads to great confusion as it contradicts the accepted usage of the English language.

I also don't see that Romans 11:32 says what you're claiming it says. How does saying that in a world of sin that all men have doubts means no one has a choice to believe when God draws them? That they are locked into a prison of doubt? The wording actually says that God concluded that all men are victims of doubt. The Bible makes it very clear that this is true. Every one of Jesus' disciples had doubts about Him. Every prophet in the OT expressed doubt at one time or another in their lives as prophets. Moses expressed doubt. Abraham expressed doubt. David expressed doubt. Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and the rest all expressed doubt in one way or another. Paul expressed some doubt. I've never seen any human being that didn't express doubts and that includes the entire Christian community which includes Calvinists. So how does verse 32 mean human beings are all in a prison?

What I see in that verse is that God is acknowledging that we all harbor doubt in one form or another and that it is God's pleasure to have mercy on us and teach us, if we are willing to learn from Him, to resolve our doubts into trust in Him. Wasn't that a part of the mission of Jesus while here on this earth? Didn't his ministry here teach us about the goodness and love of God for fallen humanity? Does not that equal God's mercy towards us and our doubts about Him? Doubts that all of us harbor, if we're honest with ourselves.

 

[God's Truth]

I gave you the scripture Rom 11:32

That scripture doesn't say 'prison' nor does it imply 'prison.

 

[Gary K]

No, What does Jn 6:44, 65 say ?

Beloved57,

I have some scripture that goes right along with John 6:44 from both the OT and NT. I think you'll find them both interesting and challenging to your theology.

Do you call complete control of a person's thinking and choices lovingkindness? I don't. Total control over another person isn't even in the same ballpark as drawing/attracting someone through lovingkindness.

Jeremiah 31:3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Notice that the following passage contradicts your theology. Your concept of God's sovereignty is in conflict with this entire chapter, unless that is, you do not believe that the children of Israel were God's chosen people. Notice especially that God used kindness and love, not overwhelming power in His relationship with Israel and that God's chosen people still walked away from Him.

Hosea 11:
1When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2 The more they were called,
the more they went away;
they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols.
3 Yet it was I who taught Ephraim to walk;
I took them up by their arms,
but they did not know that I healed them.
4 I led them with cords of kindness,
with the bands of love,
and I became to them as one who eases the yoke on their jaws,
and I bent down to them and fed them.
5 They shall not return to the land of Egypt,
but Assyria shall be their king,
because they have refused to return to me.
6 The sword shall rage against their cities,
consume the bars of their gates,
and devour them because of their own counsels.
7 My people are bent on turning away from me,
and though they call out to the Most High,
he shall not raise them up at all.
8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, O Israel?
How can I make you like Admah?
How can I treat you like Zeboiim?
My heart recoils within me;
my compassion grows warm and tender.
9 I will not execute my burning anger;
I will not again destroy Ephraim;
for I am God and not a man,the Holy One in your midst,
and I will not come in wrath.
10 They shall go after the Lord;
he will roar like a lion;
when he roars,his children shall come trembling from the west;
11 they shall come trembling like birds from Egypt,
and like doves from the land of Assyria,
and I will return them to their homes, declares the Lord.
12 Ephraim has surrounded me with lies,
and the house of Israel with deceit,
but Judah still walks with Goand is faithful to the Holy One.

Now notice in the words of Jesus that the Father is seeking people to worship Him. How does that fit into your theology? Why would God be seeking people to worship Him when He has already ordained who is saved and who is lost?

John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Notice once again that Jesus says when He is lifted up upon the cross that He will draw, i.e. attract, all people to Himself.

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

 

[beloved57]

All Gods Elect and the non elect are by nature spiritually dead, dead in sin Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13. This means that all men naturally are living without spiritual life and alienated from God. Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

As such we are naturally in spiritual death Rom 8:6

⁶For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

All by nature are carnal minded, that cant be helped, even if we are very pious and religous and moral.

In this state we have no affections or motion towards God Rom 3:11

¹¹ There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Thats why Jesus says of man naturally Jn 6:44,65

⁴⁴ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁶⁵ And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.