No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[betsy123]

b57 has been asked numerous times to prove, beyond any doubt, that he is one of the chosen ones.... nothing but crickets....

You have failed to PROVE that YOU are one of the chosen!!

Please actually PROVE that YOUR are one of the chosen!!

Who can prove that?
Who can be presumptuous to prove that he is among the chosen ones?

Am I one of the chosen? I don't know.
But I pray to God to keep me....to not let go of me....to make my faith strong....to give me courage and strength that I may be able to face come what may, without my faith buckling.
To please keep me from going astray.

Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."



We hear of some Christians losing faith....of becoming apostate.
The devil isn't idle. Who can tell what snare lies ahead?
Only God knows who'll get to the finish line.

 

[beloved57]

betsy123 posted

Because his heart is hard and his mind is darkened, the unregenerate person doesn’t desire God and is actually an enemy of God (Romans 5:10). When Jesus says that no man can come without God’s drawing him, He is making a statement about the total depravity of the sinner and the universality of that condition. So darkened is the unsaved person’s heart that he doesn’t even realize it: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). Therefore, it is only by the merciful and gracious drawing of God that we are saved. In the conversion of the sinner, God enlightens the mind (Ephesians 1:18), inclines the will toward Himself, and influences the soul, without which influence the soul remains darkened and rebellious against God. All of this is involved in the drawing process.

This I agree with. Thanks

 

[Right Divider]

Who can prove that?
Who can be presumptuous to prove that he is among the chosen ones?

Am I one of the chosen? I don't know.

This is the difference between what the Bible teaches and what b57 et. al. teach.

b57 claims that he is one of the arbitrarily chosen by God, but has no basis for this determination.

But I pray to God to keep me....to not let go of me....to make my faith strong....to give me courage and strength that I may be able to face come what may, without my faith buckling.
To please keep me from going astray.

Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

Be careful of the context of that verse. It does NOT directly apply to you or me.

We hear of some Christians losing faith....of becoming apostate.
The devil isn't idle. Who can tell what snare lies ahead?
Only God knows who'll get to the finish line.

The Bible teaches US that WE can know for sure.

Eph 1:12-14 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


​

Eph 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

Some will try to say that "you can become unsealed" and that is babbling nonsense.

 

[betsy123]

Be careful of the context of that verse. It does NOT directly apply to you or me.

How do you know that praying to God for a strong faith can not apply to us?

If Jesus had demonstrated praying to God for it.....what could be the harm in doing the same?

The Bible teaches US that WE can know for sure.

Eph 1:12-14 KJV That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
​

Eph 4:30 KJV And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.​

Hearing the Gospel, and keeping it.....are not exactly the same. So many had listened and heard the Gospel and yet, they either thumbed their noses at it or, had lost faith when disaster struck.

Some will try to say that "you can become unsealed" and that is babbling nonsense.

I don't think so. So many verses about apostasy.



2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”



1 Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


https://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy


I think - and this is just my opinion - showing our dependency on God also include asking for His help in fighting temptation/sin. We demonstrate our humbleness and trust before Him whenever we show our reliance on Him.

 

[Right Divider]

How do you know that praying to God for a strong faith can not apply to us?

I didn't say that.

If Jesus had demonstrated praying to God for it.....what could be the harm in doing the same?

You're not Jesus. Jesus was a minister of the circumcision.

Hearing the Gospel, and keeping it.....are not exactly the same. So many had listened and heard the Gospel and yet, they either thumbed their noses at it or, had lost faith when disaster struck.

If you think that you're saved by "keeping the gospel", then you do not even know what the gospel of the grace of God is.

I don't think so. So many verses about apostasy.
2 Peter 2: 20-22
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

1 Tim 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

https://www.openbible.info/topics/apostasy

NOTE that these verses to NOT say that someone that is SAVED by grace through faith can "lose it".

I think - and this is just my opinion - showing our dependency on God also include asking for His help in fighting temptation/sin. We demonstrate our humbleness and trust before Him whenever we show our reliance on Him.

Non-sequitur.

 

[betsy123]

I didn't say that.

You're not Jesus. Jesus was a minister of the circumcision.

If that isn't what you meant - then why would it there be a difference that I'm not Jesus?

If you think that you're saved by "keeping the gospel", then you do not even know what the gospel of the grace of God is.

I don't know what "gospel of grace" you mean.....but what you think it is, isn't what is being preached by Jesus!

NOTE that these verses to NOT say that someone that is SAVED by grace through faith can "lose it".

So..... whom is Jesus referring to in this verse?
Non-believers?




Matthew 7

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’



It refers to those that are not true disciples - the false preachers, fake Christians.
Jesus knows what's in our hearts.


Rev 22
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


If we're supposed to do the will of our Father - then, obedience is of the utmost importance.

 

[Right Divider]

If that isn't what you meant - then why would it there be a difference that I'm not Jesus?

I'm simply saying that the overall context of Jesus' earthly ministry was specially to Israel and not the body of Christ (which was not yet revealed).

I don't know what "gospel of grace" you mean.....but what you think it is, isn't what is being preached by Jesus!

Jesus preached the gospel of the kingdom and not the gospel of the grace of God.

So..... whom is Jesus referring to in this verse?
Non-believers?

Since Paul makes it abundantly clear that being saved by grace through faith is NOT of yourselves (Eph 2:8): therefore, those saved by grace through faith are SEALED .... just like Paul says.

Matthew 7

I Never Knew You

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

And? This is AGAIN in the context of Jesus speaking to Israel.

It refers to those that are not true disciples - the false preachers, fake Christians.
Jesus knows what's in our hearts.

Indeed... those are NOT saved and therefore cannot become unsaved.

Rev 22
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

NOT in the context of the body of Christ.

If we're supposed to do the will of our Father - then, obedience is of the utmost importance.

Your obedience to whatever set of rules you want to drum up is NOT how you get saved by grace through faith.

Rom 5:19 KJV For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.​

 

[beloved57]

RD

I'm simply saying that the overall context of Jesus' earthly ministry was specially to Israel and not the body of Christ (which was not yet revealed).

Thats False. Jesus Ministry was to the Body of Christ. Just at that time it was a Mystery that Gentiles also belonged to it. Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Right Divider]

RD

Thats False. Jesus Ministry was to the Body of Christ. Just at that time it was a Mystery that Gentiles also belonged to it. Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Rom 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:​

 

[beloved57]

Rom 15:8 KJV Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:​

Ok. That was the body of Christ.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[Right Divider]

Ok. That was the body of Christ.

:rotfl:

 

[beloved57]

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[Bright Raven]

John 3:16 New Living Translation (NLT)
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Nanja]

According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 [FONT="]And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/FONT]

Jesus said he cannot John 6:65 !

A man's own will is not free from the predetermined counsel of God Is. 46:10.

Therefore, the choices he makes in time have already been determined by God to be made according to His Will: according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[beloved57]

Jesus said he cannot John 6:65 !

A man's own will is not free from the predetermined counsel of God Is. 46:10.

Therefore, the choices he makes in time have already been determined by God to be made according to His Will: according to His Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph. 3:11.

Dan. 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Amen Excellent speech !

 

[beloved57]

John 3:16 New Living Translation (NLT)
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Evasion and Rabbit trail. According to Jesus words here can a man by his own freewill ability come to Christ ? Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[beloved57]

Man by nature cant by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasnt dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature.

 

[beloved57]

The man or women who comes to Christ, doesn't come by their own freewill ability, because naturally man is spiritually dead and without any spiritual life and ability. However when the Father draws one to Christ, He begins by giving them life, spiritual life. The drawing indicates life has been given.

See coming denotes motion and motion denotes living'

The word draw denotes to impel to impart motion to, which motion is life, spiritual life

 

[beloved57]

In order for man to come to Christ he must be given motion, life, this comes by quickening. All who come to Christ have been quickened out of a dead spiritual state. Eph 2:1

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In the original the word quickened isnt there, its derived from verse 5 and its the word suzóopoieó and means:

to make alive together with
Usage: I make alive together with.

I make that which was dead to live, cause to live, quicken.

This causing to live is giving motion to, which is the impelling aspect of drawing Jn 6:44 and 12:32

So quickening and drawing can be used interchangeably.

 

[Nanja]

In order for man to come to Christ he must be given motion, life, this comes by quickening. All who come to Christ have been quickened out of a dead spiritual state. Eph 2:1

[FONT="]And you hath he [B]quickened,[/B] who were dead in trespasses and sins;

In the original the word quickened isnt there, its derived from verse 5 and its the word [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#001320][FONT=Roboto]suzóopoieó and means:

[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#0066AA][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#001320][FONT=Roboto]to make alive together with[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=#0066AA][FONT=Arial]Usage: [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#001320][FONT=Roboto]I make alive together with.

[/FONT][/COLOR][FONT=Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][COLOR=#001320]I make that which was dead to live,[/COLOR][/FONT][B] cause to live,[/B][FONT=Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][COLOR=#001320] quicken.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Roboto, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][COLOR=#001320]This causing to live is giving motion to, which is the impelling aspect of drawing Jn 6:44 and 12:32

So quickening and drawing can be used interchangeably.[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]


[COLOR="#006400"]Amen to #37, #38, and #39 !

No man can come to Christ by his own freewill because by nature they're all spiritually dead in sin: A dead lifeless corpse Eph. 2:1 !

Coming to Christ is all the Action of God Himself:

The Father draws or quickens / makes Alive to Christ all His Chosen ones Eph. 1:4-7 which were risen together with Him when He rose from the dead.

Col. 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


So because they were already forgiven of their sins, quickened and raised together with Christ 1 Pet. 1:2 they must be quickened / made Alive Spiritually in time John 3:3,6.


Obviously then, coming to Christ has nothing to do with a man's work of choosing it by his own freewill, or any performance on his part. But solely because God had discriminately elected particular individuals to be beneficiaries of His Grace Eph. 2:5, 8 !