No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?

[Clete]

Note that whether or not someone is physically circumcised does not matter to Christians (Colossians 3:11, Galatians 6:15, Galatians 5:6). Instead, the only circumcision that matters is the spiritual circumcision (Philippians 3:3) of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Colossians 2:11-13).

If Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, get physically circumcised thinking that they have to (Acts 15:1,5) because it was commanded to Abraham (Genesis 17:10) and was part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Leviticus 12:3), then Christ will profit them nothing (Galatians 5:2). They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) and placed themselves under the curse of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Notice that your proof texts are all from Paul. It was Paul and his converts to whom physical circumcision didn't matter.

The notion of not obeying Moses, (i.e. following the Mosaic Law and being circumcised in particular) was the reason God sent Paul, by revelation, to Israel in the first place.

 

[Clete]

Note that He did improve the law (Hebrews 8:6-7), in the sense that He shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are even stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), while Jesus' New Covenant law forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife is not a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus Christ also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while His New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it is also more merciful. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43, Deuteronomy 23:6), while Jesus' New Covenant law requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), while Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), while Jesus allowed His disciples to work on the sabbath, and said that they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus Himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29, John 14:15; 1 Corinthians 14:37), Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and also exceed in righteousness, those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

Hopeless. I'm not even going to waste my time.

Don't bother responding to either this or my last post. I won't read it.

Clete

 

[bibleverse2]

I have always been frustrated by how hard it is for people who show up to discuss doctrinal issues to grasp that criminal justice and soteriology are not the same subject.

That brought to mind how our salvation from hell is made possible by Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion the just punishment for our sins (1 Peter 3:18), and how that suffering was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2) because Jesus is not only a human but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount even though it was not infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18) which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who are not God have finite souls, in order for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23) except Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28) while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

 

[bibleverse2]

Repentance is not an action of man. Repentance is a work of grace performed in man by the Holy Spirit.

That's right insofar as initial repentance is a miraculous gift from God which man cannot perform or choose by himself, so that we must be:

2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance . . .

But note that an initially repentant Christian can still at some subsequent point wrongly employ his free will to go back to sinning without repentance (2 Peter 2:20-22). For initial repentance at the point of initial salvation (Mark 1:15, Acts 3:19, Acts 11:18, Acts 26:20; 2 Timothy 2:25) is different than subsequent repentance (or the lack of it: Hebrews 10:26-29) for sins committed sometime subsequent to initial salvation (2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 2:5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 2:21-22, Revelation 3:3, Revelation 3:19).

Also, regarding the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation, note that they do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).

 

[Clete]

That brought to mind how our salvation from hell is made possible by Jesus Christ's suffering during His Passion the just punishment for our sins (1 Peter 3:18), and how that suffering was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2) because Jesus is not only a human but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite and so the suffering of His soul (Isaiah 53:11, KJV) was infinite in amount even though it was not infinite in duration. And so His suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18) which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who are not God have finite souls, in order for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23) except Jesus Christ (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11, KJV) an infinite amount, when elect people repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28) while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

Awesome! Very few people, relatively speaking, understand this. It is called 'penal substitutionary atonement' and it is the only rational way to believe the gospel and preserve God's justice. Indeed, the Gospel is based upon the justice of the death penalty and, in fact, the whole of God's criminal justice system as given in the Old Testament is intendended to teach us that God is just! Indeed, not only that God is just but that He is Justice. This doctrine of penal substitutionary atonement MUST be true or else the entire scripture is falsified. It is true for the same reason that other doctrines such as Calvinism (i.e. immutability, exhaustive divine foreknowledge, pretedistination, et. al) must be false. In other words, it is a primary, foundational premise of the Christian faith.


I would say, however, that I think you might carry the notion of "infinite punishment" a step too far only in that the term "infinite" can mean a lot of things (one infinity is not necessarily equal to another, for example). Not that you're definitely wrong on that point. You may well be entirely right but I'm not sure that there is sufficitient biblical material to establish it to the point that I'd be very dogmatic about that specific point. All that is necessary is that Jesus' death be of SUFFICIENT value to either equal or exceed that for which He is paying. Christ's death is definitely of infinite and totally inexhausable value and so whether man's due punishment is equal to it or not isn't relevant. The point is that it certainly does not exceed it and thus God's justice is satisfied.

Clete

 

[bibleverse2]

I am a Christian and I do not eat pork. I believe that the Torah is valid including including commandments that include a death penalty.

Under the New Covenant, all foods are in themselves okay for all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, to eat (1 Timothy 4:4-5, Romans 14:14,20, Mark 7:18-19; 1 Corinthians 10:25-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For under the New Covenant, no meat is defiled in itself (Romans 14:14), all meats are pure (Romans 14:20). Every meat is good, and no meat is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving to God, for it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5). Let no one therefore judge you regarding what meat you eat (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For the Kingdom of God does not consist of what meat we eat or do not eat, but consists of righteousness, peace, and joy in God's Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). Happy are those Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, who do not condemn themselves over what meat they eat (Romans 14:22), for no meat can defile them (Mark 7:18-19).

 

[bibleverse2]

Do you advocate for the death penalty for Sabbath breakers?

No one should, even though the Old Covenant did (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36).

For Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, do not have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13), was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which all Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

So no Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ, along with all of the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow, now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those works done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of the apostle John. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe that Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point is not for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

Also, how do those who think that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?

 

[JudgeRightly]

No one should, even though the Old Covenant did (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36).

For Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, do not have to keep the sabbath of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For even the letter of the Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13), was part of the abolished Old Covenant Mosaic law's ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:6-7, Exodus 31:15b), which has been replaced by the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) ministration of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:6-18), in which all Christians are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and keep the spirit (Romans 7:6) of all of the Old Covenant Mosaic law's commandments by loving others (Romans 13:8-10).

Saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath is just as mistaken as saying that Christians have to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision (Acts 15:1-11). If Christians keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, then they are as fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4) as Christians who keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law circumcision thinking that they have to because it is part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:2). They have become debtors to perform the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 5:3). They have placed themselves under its curse (Galatians 3:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

So no Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, should ever desire to go back into bondage under the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8). Christians need to keep the sabbath only in spirit, not in the letter (Romans 7:6). Christians must never judge other Christians for not keeping the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath (Colossians 2:16), which letter was abolished on the New Covenant Cross of Jesus Christ, along with all of the rest of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Colossians 2:14-17, Ephesians 2:15-16, Romans 7:6, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10:9b, Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

For its letter was merely a shadow, now it all comes down to Jesus Christ Himself (Colossians 2:17). Jesus' New Covenant sabbath rest (Matthew 11:28-30), which all Christians enter by faith (Hebrews 4:3-4), exceeds in righteousness (cf. Matthew 5:20) the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic-law sabbath. For under the New Covenant sabbath, Christians must cease from their own works, as in those works done apart from abiding in Jesus (John 15:4-5), every day of the week (Hebrews 4:3,10, Luke 9:23). And they can esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5).

Also, Christians should be worshipping God every day of the week (Hebrews 13:15, cf. Psalms 145:2). And they should be meeting together every day of the week (Hebrews 3:13, Hebrews 10:25), at least in some fashion (Matthew 18:20), such as on this forum. The early Church started assembling together on the Lord's day (commonly called Sunday) instead of on the sabbath (commonly called Saturday) because the Lord's day, the first day of the week, was the day on which Jesus Christ physically resurrected (Mark 16:9) from the dead: "no longer observing the sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of the apostle John. Compare John's reference to "the Lord's day" in Revelation 1:10).

But it is not a requirement for Christians to assemble together only on the Lord's day, or to esteem the Lord's day above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to choose to assemble together on the sabbath because they esteem the sabbath above every other day of the week. It is also okay for Christians to esteem every day of the week (Romans 14:5). Christians are never to judge each other over this matter, but are simply to do what they believe that Jesus Christ wants them as individuals to do (Romans 14:4-13). So the point is not for Christians to esteem days, but to focus on the person of Jesus Himself (Colossians 2:16-17).

Also, how do those who think that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant sabbath keep the letter of the sabbath of Leviticus 25?

Do you think the whole world to be Christians?

What about for non-Christians?

 

[Jacob]

Under the New Covenant, all foods are in themselves okay for all Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, to eat (1 Timothy 4:4-5, Romans 14:14,20, Mark 7:18-19; 1 Corinthians 10:25-30, Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For under the New Covenant, no meat is defiled in itself (Romans 14:14), all meats are pure (Romans 14:20). Every meat is good, and no meat is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving to God, for it is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer (1 Timothy 4:4-5). Let no one therefore judge you regarding what meat you eat (Colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 9:10). For the Kingdom of God does not consist of what meat we eat or do not eat, but consists of righteousness, peace, and joy in God's Holy Spirit (Romans 14:17). Happy are those Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, who do not condemn themselves over what meat they eat (Romans 14:22), for no meat can defile them (Mark 7:18-19).

I am debating in my mind if the death penalties of the Torah are still valid. Romans 10:4 NASB is either the end of the law or the goal of the law.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

There is no one correct position on this issue. The death penalty is Biblical and therefore acceptable. On the other hand, Mercy is desired by the Lord. It is one of those topics where you can lean either way and still be a good Christian or Jew.

 

[Jacob]

There is no one correct position on this issue. The death penalty is Biblical and therefore acceptable. On the other hand, Mercy is desired by the Lord. It is one of those topics where you can lean either way and still be a good Christian or Jew.

It is my hope that your understanding of this matter is of God. I doubt that I understand it as I should, currently.

 

[JudgeRightly]

There is no one correct position on this issue. The death penalty is Biblical and therefore acceptable.

I would challenge you on this.

Do you think that morality changes simply because some amount of time has passed?

On the other hand, Mercy is desired by the Lord. It is one of those topics where you can lean either way and still be a good Christian or Jew.

Did God desire mercy for those who broke His law?

Will God be merciful to those who ultimately reject Him, sparing them from the consequences of their actions?

To be sure, Christians should show mercy to those in need, but a government has no right, to show mercy to a criminal.

God said to governments:

Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:21&version=NKJV

 

[Jacob]

I would challenge you on this.

Do you think that morality changes simply because some amount of time has passed?



Did God desire mercy for those who broke His law?

Will God be merciful to those who ultimately reject Him, sparing them from the consequences of their actions?

To be sure, Christians should show mercy to those in need, but a government has no right, to show mercy to a criminal.

God said to governments:

Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:21&version=NKJV

Can anyone ever say they used to be a criminal, like people used to be sinners?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Can anyone ever say they used to be a criminal, like people used to be sinners?

In what context?

 

[Jacob]

In what context?

If they have repented and been forgiven, such that they are saved. Criminals are sinners. One says that not all sinners are criminals.

 

[JudgeRightly]

If they have repented and been forgiven, such that they are saved. Criminals are sinners. One says that not all sinners are criminals.

God still requires repentant criminals to be punished.

Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:21&version=NKJV

 

[Jacob]

God still requires repentant criminals to be punished.

Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:21&version=NKJV

What do I do with Romans 10:4 NASB and the end of the law for me? Should I read the Bible differently as the goal of the law rather than the end of the law?

 

[Clete]

What do I do with Romans 10:4 NASB and the end of the law for me? Should I read the Bible differently as the goal of the law rather than the end of the law?

Two different topics, Jacob, as I've told you repeatedly before.

Criminal justice has NOTHING to do with soteriology. Romans 10 has to do with one's relationship with God, not criminal justice. Thus, a saved murder should still be executed by the governing official for his crime. If you didn't do this, then every murder who got caught would instantly get really good at playing the part of a Christian. But, if you execute all convicted murders, regardless of whether you'd be sending them to Heaven or Hell, then you'd know that any last minute spiritual conversions are likely genuine. In other words, applying Romans 10 to criminal justice only builds in an incentive for murderers to lie while doing things properly builds an incentive for murderers to repent and be saved.

See how wise God is? It's just amazing!

 

[Jacob]

Two different topics, Jacob, as I've told you repeatedly before.

Criminal justice has NOTHING to do with soteriology. Romans 10 has to do with one's relationship with God, not criminal justice. Thus, a saved murder should still be executed by the governing official for his crime. If you didn't do this, then every murder who got caught would instantly get really good at playing the part of a Christian. But, if you execute all convicted murders, regardless of whether you'd be sending them to Heaven or Hell, then you'd know that any last minute spiritual conversions are likely genuine. In other words, applying Romans 10 to criminal justice only builds in an incentive for murderers to lie while doing things properly builds an incentive for murderers to repent and be saved.

See how wise God is? It's just amazing!

Can a murderer be forgiven? My sin is not murder, though I said someone was bothering me once when asked. However, with the death penalty according to God's Law I should be put to death. But I am a believer repented and forgiven. Even by the victims I have harmed. I believe that I am forgiven by God. Should I now turn myself in to be executed?

Why do you think of the end of the law as soteriology but not criminology?

 

[Rusha]

Can a murderer be forgiven? My sin is not murder, though I said someone was bothering me once when asked. However, with the death penalty according to God's Law I should be put to death. But I am a believer repented and forgiven. Even by the victims I have harmed. I believe that I am forgiven by God. Should I now turn myself in to be executed?

Why do you think of the end of the law as soteriology but not criminology?

A murderer who repents from their sin (crime in this case) is STILL a murderer... they are just a murderer who God has forgiven of their transgression. Yes, they should still receive the death penalty.