Right, but if it is criminal in nature, pertaining to or dealing with crime, such as lust or a murderous intention. It is obviously wrong. Sin but not crime even though it deals with crime?
No Death Penalty. What Is Your Position?
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Sad.
If someone isn't guilty they may still get life in prison? Would you ever be for the death penalty, or in theory, or is this your only reservation?
God's Law includes the death penalty but you are against it because it puts to death innocent people, modern time or US Law or something.
Would you be for it in principle?
For me, it would depend on the situation. Example ... I think that individuals who are convicted of sexually assaulting children deserve to be dropped into a shark tank along with a bucket of chum. Doing so would be a crime ... thinking it, not so much.
Not intentionally, but it's happened more than you'd want to believe. In 2018 nine people were exonerated by the Innosense Project alone.
How many people have been put to death due to wrongful convictions we may never know.
I can't say that I wouldn't rather have someone given the time and chance to reform, to become a part of the body (though never again a part of the larger society), but so long as the first problem remains it's not an issue for me. I believe that the woman who could have been stoned and was spared by Jesus sets another example, one his sacrifice makes possible...but that's a separate argument.
Suffice to say, for now, we have the first problem to grapple with.
What is this first problem you mention? Do you mean what you said about innocent people being convicted and killed or sentenced to life in prison? Yes, time to reform and also forgiveness in Christ following His earthly ministry are other arguments. I believe that Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but that in Him it may have been abolished. That is difficult for me, because heaven and earth have not yet passed away. Do you understand all that I am saying? I can present the scripture if you want me to.
I remember a few years ago someone posted a graph that directly falsifies your claim that the death penalty is "not a deterrent to murder and has never been one." I'll make an effort to find it and repost it.
In fact, the contention is obviously false even on an intuitive level.
But even if it weren't, your argument presumes that the completely convoluted and frankly idiotic American system of justice stands as a good example of how the death penalty should be carried out. That's a false premise if ever there was one! Even if everything you claim is true (which I am not conceding) it would only argue in favor of the idea that the American system doesn't work, not that the death penalty itself doesn't.
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Dead murderers never murder again.... :mock: "no deterrent"
The national registry of exonerations lists 106 who were sentenced to death who have been exonerated since 1989.
That's 106 too many but it is a much less than the number of innocent people who have been murdered by people who had already been convicted of murder in the past and later released! There are a minimum of 853 people who have been murdered by someone who had already murdered someone else and were paroled or released for whatever reason (since 1950).
And that completely ignores the deterrent effect that a justly enacted and enforced death penalty (i.e. one that would look quite different than that of the U.S. system) would have on the overall number of murders.
And that only looks at what you do with murderers. If the entire legal justice system enacted and enforced just laws, the murder rate would drop like a rock because much of the underlying causes (i.e. motives) would go away.
Clete
Probably more than that, but that's a sad, needless number.
What's that number? In any event, it should never happen. I oppose releasing convicted murderers back into society. Most states have distinctions between the planned and the passionate response to impact that issue, which is why you have 1st and 2nd degree charges on the point, along with manslaughter.
It's an arguable assumption to begin with, but given we're not going to completely change our system a moot one in any event. And what isn't arguable is that we've put innocent people to death to satisfy laws that neither of us believe serve to deter murder as situated.
Thanks, Stripe. I was answering on the fly, point to point, and meant to take that out, but inadvertently left it in the larger paragraph. Too many irons in other fires at the moment.
And again, I'm opposed to people being released from prison who've been convicted of murder.
And again, I'm opposed to people being released from prison who've been convicted of murder.
Doesn't do the people murdered by them any good.
I never said that I don't believe that the death penalty as it exists currently in the U.S. doesn't serve as a deterrent to murder. It absolutely does. It doesn't to nearly the degree it would if it were administered justly but still.
I've looked for that graph that someone here posted a long time ago but can't find it. It was simply two graph lines, one line showing the number of murders per capita and the other showing the number of executions of murderers. The two lines were very obviously inversely correlated. In fact, whoever posted it had inverted one of the two lines so that the correlation was even more readily seen.
There is just no doubt that the death penalty deters crime. Even if you didn't have the number to prove it (which we do), you could know it for a fact just based on God's word alone. Of course, that would only be a persuasive point for a bible believe Christian but never the less, God Himself says that the death penalty is a deterrent to future crime. (Deuteronomy 13:10 and elsewhere).
Clete
Where did I say you did? It's a question far from settled with a lot of competing positions and data. Doesn't really touch upon my objection, but I understand that you feel it does something, but that its efficacy could be considerably increased with additional measures and changes that aren't probable.
As for the rest, I believe you believe it and you have every right to. I've set out my primary objection, which isn't impacted by it as things stand.
Neither does a just and good intention do any good for the innocent wrongly convicted and executed.
No, that would take enactment of my standard and a time machine.
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It was here: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...enalty-BR-XI&p=1226777&viewfull=1#post1226777
Images have been lost though. They were astounding.
The difference being hundreds of innocent lives.
Hold on a second. The US has an execution rate that might as well be non-existent compared with how many murders it has. The "status quo" is far more aligned with "your standard" than it is with justice — God's standard.
From today, were justice enforced, we might see:
A) The execution rate skyrocket briefly.
B) The murder rate decline, bringing the execution rate down to "rare."
C) The number of innocent people killed reduced dramatically.
No DeLorean required.
Both losses of life being preventable on the whole following my idea, as murderers would not be released nor the innocent put to death.
You're forgetting the thousands who are murdered under what is essentially your system.
Also, people are murdered in prisons.
You need to qualify that. Forgetting how and in what way about people murdered outside of the criminal justice system that are then brought into it by trial? You'll have to fill that out or I can't really speak to it.
In any event, I was responding to the points about those who are innocent of murder but convicted and those who are harmed by released murderers. Both of those can be reasonably addressed and mostly prevented. I only say mostly because of a note you'll interject in a moment.
I'd say adopting a criminal lifestyle seriously enough to find yourself ensconced with murderers is accepting a certain level of risk. But beyond that, it is possible to isolate murderers from the general population.
:AMR:
Innocent people get murdered at epidemic rates. Your proposed changes would do nothing to address that.
There are more than prisoners in prison.
And: "See, the system works."
Suddenly you're OK with capital punishment when criminals deal it out?
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