NAACP leader outed as white

[kmoney]

But the first is speculation so far as I'm aware. No gay gene forthcoming at present and the last I've read indicates a general thinking that it may come down a number of contributing factors.

I wouldn't say only speculation. At least not speculation from nothing. I'd say the experience of the majority of people says it's not a choice. And I don't expect someone to find a 'gay gene'. Like you say, there are a number of factors, some of which are biological.

So it comes back to his feeling and assertion and the disparate responses to it contrasted with the woman in question, who on the face of it has more reason to find affinity with a common biological set of ancestors. Yet her manifest desire is labeled deceit and she is put in the worst of lights while he has a magazine cover and a celebratory note.

I still feel that she's being more deceitful but, hypothetically, if she had been upfront about things from the start then there doesn't seem to be a big difference between the two.

 

[kmoney]

...except being black isn't her true self, which is the entire point. One you seem to have completely missed.

How is 'true self' as it concerns gender determined?

 

[Granite]

How is 'true self' as it concerns gender determined?

By the person, I'd say, at least in extraordinary cases like Jenner's. I see gender as potentially fluid because in this day and age people like Jenner do have a choice and options at their disposal--there's really no way of knowing how long or often folks wishing for reassignment have existed or longed to transition. It's a fair assumption that this condition's existed as long as we have.

Race is a completely different animal. It's baked in, so to speak, right into our DNA. Race isn't a choice. Gender can be.

 

[kmoney]

By the person, I'd say, at least in extraordinary cases like Jenner's. I see gender as potentially fluid because in this day and age people like Jenner do have a choice and options at their disposal--there's really no way of knowing how long or often folks wishing for reassignment have existed or longed to transition. It's a fair assumption that this condition's existed as long as we have.

Race is a completely different animal. It's baked in, so to speak, right into our DNA. Race isn't a choice. Gender can be.

But what is changing in that fluidity? When someone makes a choice to change genders, what exactly is changing? What defines 'male' and 'female'? There was a time when people would say gender was 'baked in' also.

 

[tetelestai]

Race isn't a choice. Gender can be.

You're correct.

Which is why gay rights advocates and gender advocates should quit comparing the two to the civil rights movement.

 

[Granite]

But what is changing in that fluidity? When someone makes a choice to change genders, what exactly is changing? What defines 'male' and 'female'? There was a time when people would say gender was 'baked in' also.

Well, physically, an awful lot. Psychologically, maybe not so much. From what (little) I've read on the subject it seems that a lot of folks who go through this process have identified and felt as though they were born into the "wrong" body or "wrong" gender for quite a long time. Maybe it's just a mistake of genetics, a fluke, a wire or two that should have zigged when it zagged instead. I don't think the fluidity of gender itself has changed, but the ability to enable that fluidity has. Put another way, we finally have the means for these individuals to "properly" inhabit the body they feel they should've gotten in the first place.

Race is a completely different ballgame. You can't undo history, or ancestry, or wish away your progenitors. I can insist I'm a big blonde Swede all day long; I can demand someone recognize my authentic Korean roots; I can say I'm a Sudanese ex-pat all the livelong day. Insistence, appropriation, even admiration, does not undue your race. It's not an issue of won't; it's a matter of fact that you simply can't.

 

[Town Heretic]

I wouldn't say only speculation. At least not speculation from nothing.

If it isn't science it's speculation where the subject is capable of an empirical examination. It may be hard science tomorrow, but not today.

I'd say the experience of the majority of people says it's not a choice. And I don't expect someone to find a 'gay gene'. Like you say, there are a number of factors, some of which are biological.

I think something is going on...and given there are people hard wired for a single expression and those who self apparently aren't, it wouldn't surprise me to even find a few hard wired for almost anything.

I still feel that she's being more deceitful but, hypothetically, if she had been upfront about things from the start then there doesn't seem to be a big difference between the two.

We'll agree on the last at least. Race seems to me a thinner distinction than gender. Else, most people who meet either without knowing the back story will likely come to similarly erroneous conclusions, unless one of them stops attempting to appear and be what they aren't.

I suppose that's more likely to be the case with the woman, considering the response.

 

[Rusha]

I still feel that she's being more deceitful but, hypothetically, if she had been upfront about things from the start then there doesn't seem to be a big difference between the two.

We'll agree on the last at least. Race seems to me a thinner distinction than gender. Else, most people who meet either without knowing the back story will likely come to similarly erroneous conclusions, unless one of them stops attempting to appear and be what they aren't.

I suppose that's more likely to be the case with the woman, considering the response.

Indeed. The woman was deceitful. Too bad I didn't make that point. :think:

 

[drbrumley]

Well, physically, an awful lot. Psychologically, maybe not so much. From what (little) I've read on the subject it seems that a lot of folks who go through this process have identified and felt as though they were born into the "wrong" body or "wrong" gender for quite a long time. Maybe it's just a mistake of genetics, a fluke, a wire or two that should have zigged when it zagged instead. I don't think the fluidity of gender itself has changed, but the ability to enable that fluidity has. Put another way, we finally have the means for these individuals to "properly" inhabit the body they feel they should've gotten in the first place.

Race is a completely different ballgame. You can't undo history, or ancestry, or wish away your progenitors. I can insist I'm a big blonde Swede all day long; I can demand someone recognize my authentic Korean roots; I can say I'm a Sudanese ex-pat all the livelong day. Insistence, appropriation, even admiration, does not undue your race. It's not an issue of won't; it's a matter of fact that you simply can't.

So a man can become a woman and vice versa is what your attempting to say?

 

[musterion]

A very old riddle goes like this.

"How many legs does a dog have if we call its tail a leg?"

The usual answer comes, "Five."

"Incorrect. Calling a thing something else does not make it something else.

Further, Marcus Aurelius:

What is this [whatever it is], fundamentally? What is its nature and substance, its reason for being?

 

[Granite]

So a man can become a woman and vice versa is what your attempting to say?

I'm not "attempting" to say anything, doc, I just plain out and said it. And yes, you should know this is medically possible and not exactly news.

 

[musterion]

 

[Granite]

A little dry, but interesting reading:

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

 

[musterion]

The idea of two sexes is simplistic.

Simple, perhaps, but not simplistic.

 

[Rusha]

A little dry, but interesting reading:

http://www.nature.com/news/sex-redefined-1.16943

That is interesting. I think it's hard for most people (myself included) to empathize with something that we do not understand.

Thanks for posting it, Granite.

 

[Granite]

Looks like Dolezal resigned. Not very surprising.

 

[musterion]

Looks like Dolezal resigned. Not very surprising.

It's all Whitey's fault.

 

[Granite]

It's all Whitey's fault.

Well technically in this instance...uh, yeah. It totally was.:chuckle:

 

[musterion]

 

[musterion]

Well technically in this instance...uh, yeah. It totally was.:chuckle:

No, it was also the fault of the black folks who HAD TO KNOW this was a white chick, but found her useful (I guess).