My own journey as a Christian

[PureX]

The beliefs don't really matter, in the end, anyway. They're just stuff that we make up because the truth is that we don't know and we don't want to face that truth.

What matters is the faith.

When life hits us in the face with the true depth of our own ignorance, it's not our beliefs that will save us. It's our faith. And if we've confused faith with our beliefs, we may find ourselves in trouble. Because we may lose both.

But if we understand that belief is not faith, and faith is not belief, then we will always have the option of faith to fall back on, even when everything else, including our beliefs, have been shattered.

Faith is fundamental to human life, because we humans are profoundly ignorant. And believing otherwise will not save us from that ignorance when we're tested. Only faith can do that.

 

[bybee]

The beliefs don't really matter, in the end, anyway. They're just stuff that we make up because the truth is that we don't know and we don't want to face that truth.

What matters is the faith.

When life hits us in the face with the true depth of our own ignorance, it's not our beliefs that will save us. It's our faith. And if we've confused faith with our beliefs, we may find ourselves in trouble. Because we may lose both.

But if we understand that belief is not faith, and faith is not belief, then we will always have the option of faith to fall back on, even when everything else, including our beliefs, have been shattered.

Faith is fundamental to human life, because we humans are profoundly ignorant. And believing otherwise will not save us from that ignorance when we're tested. Only faith can do that.

Do you speak in the "Royal We" or the "editorial we"?
You do not speak for me.
What is Faith if not expressed in belief?
Faith and Practice go together.

 

[PureX]

What is Faith if not expressed in belief?

It is trusting in the unknowable, in spite of our fear, doubt, and ignorance.

 

[bybee]

It is trusting in the unknowable, in spite of our fear, doubt, and ignorance.

I trust in the Known, therefore my fear, doubt and ignorance are minor details in my life.
"Be not afraid!"

 

[Nick M]

The beliefs don't really matter, in the end, anyway. They're just stuff that we make up because the truth is that we don't know and we don't want to face that truth.

And now we get to the bottom of it. This statement from the heathen is word document archive worthy.

 

[alwight]

You may think our religous/supernatural experiences with God's love and Spirit, which confirm what He says, to be anything other than the truth, but that does not mean that they are not exactly that.

I've yet to hear about specific such experiences that would warrant fundamentalism rather than just perhaps a strengthening of faith or belief in God.
I would rather like to experience for myself the claimed evidence that leads to fundamentalism but from my experience such things tend to be labelled as too personal even by non fundamentalist Christians.
However if fundamentalists have somehow experienced "Truth" then why are there different fundamentalists for different religions in different parts or regions of the world? Unless perhaps they are providing their own supposed experiences and simply enthusiastically convincing themselves?

 

[ok doser]

And now we get to the bottom of it. This statement from the heathen is word document archive worthy.

he's been full of them lately

and full of himself

 

[serpentdove]

My brother was a youth pastor at the time. He told me that I needed to open my eyes and realize that God doesn't cause everything to happen. But, He will use everything that happens to test and/or strengthen His children...

I think that's right. God has a determined will and a permissive will. Is 61:3

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I've yet to hear about specific such experiences that would warrant fundamentalism rather than just perhaps a strengthening of faith or belief in God.
I would rather like to experience for myself the claimed evidence that leads to fundamentalism but from my experience such things tend to be labelled as too personal even by non fundamentalist Christians.
However if fundamentalists have somehow experienced "Truth" then why are there different fundamentalists for different religions in different parts or regions of the world? Unless perhaps they are providing their own supposed experiences and simply enthusiastically convincing themselves?

So basically you take the foundations of Christianity; the Spiritual war of truth vs. lies; spiritual growth and understanding of God, as reasons to deny it.
You see this reality. It is evidence of its truth.
If you want to see God, see someone filled with Agape love, love that goes beyond the natural ability of man. If you search; you will find it.

 

[aikido7]

As most of you know, I've been with TOL since before my husband passed away in January of 1999. Before Steve died, I considered myself strong in my faith. I wasn't as strong as I thought. I blamed God for Steve dying. He was a 39 year old man who died instantly from a massive stroke. He was part of my reason for living. At his funeral, a lot of people came up to me telling me that God must have a really huge plan for me because, 30 years old, I had gone through so much. All those words did for me was to make me question my faith more and more. I didn't want to believe in a God who would take everything from me just because he "had a plan for my life." I thought about all of that for two years and came on the verge of giving up my Christian faith because of it. Like so many people, I could easily blame my failing faith on what others said or did to me. All they did was make me question more and more why I believed in such a God.

Then, I went to visit my brother. My brother was a youth pastor at the time. He told me that I needed to open my eyes and realize that God doesn't cause everything to happen. But, He will use everything that happens to test and/or strengthen His children. Except for TOL, I had never heard that before. When I got home from visiting my brother, my dear friends on TOL started telling me the same thing my brother did. The difference was, this time, I chose to pay attention to what they said to me. Within two weeks, I decided to rededicate myself to God and to look at what I was going through as more of a test than as someone I loved being taken away from me.

Now, sixteen (almost seventeen) years later, I can honestly say that my faith in God is stronger than it ever has been. I have come to realize that what my brother told me was true. I have also come to realize that my faith is my own. No one can cause me to stumble or fall by what they say or do to me. Some people can cause me to question my faith. But, what I do after that is my responsibility. And, I cannot with all honesty blame others for the things I choose to do with my life.

The translation of the word “faith” is actually “trust.” This is the first-century definition as Jesus used it.

It has nothing to do with theology or belief.

We have a world of joy and woe. God gave us all free will. He cannot affect us outside the boundaries of the physical laws that have been in operation since the beginning. He does not punish or reward us. He remains within and without us--a constant presence.

 

[glorydaz]

The translation of the word “faith” is actually “trust.” This is the first-century definition as Jesus used it.

It has nothing to do with theology or belief.

We have a world of joy and woe. God gave us all free will. He cannot affect us outside the boundaries of the physical laws that have been in operation since the beginning. He does not punish or reward us. He remains within and without us--a constant presence.

So your trust is in the god of nature, correct? Is that Father Nature since you use the masculine pronoun?

 

[aikido7]

Do you speak in the "Royal We" or the "editorial we"?
You do not speak for me.
What is Faith if not expressed in belief?
Faith and Practice go together.

It’s too easy to have beliefs. We change them at will several times each day.

What matters to me is faith--as Jesus used the word. It has nothing to do with belief. It actually means trust.

 

[alwight]

So basically you take the foundations of Christianity; the Spiritual war of truth vs. lies; spiritual growth and understanding of God, as reasons to deny it.
You see this reality. It is evidence of its truth.
If you want to see God, see someone filled with Agape love, love that goes beyond the natural ability of man. If you search; you will find it.

As I tied to explain if people have an innate belief then I really have no problem with that, it's only when claims of "truth" or perhaps absolute "Truth" are presumed as knowledge. I simply don't believe that such absolute knowledge is knowable.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

As I tied to explain if people have an innate belief then I really have no problem with that, it's only when claims of "truth" or perhaps absolute "Truth" are presumed as knowledge. I simply don't believe that such absolute knowledge is knowable.

If your emotional need for love was fulfilled, if your shame for your moral failures was taken away, if your hopelessness was turned to hope, if your anxiety was turned to peace, by Jesus and His Spirit would you then be convinced He is the way, the truth and the life just as He said He was?

 

[alwight]

If your emotional need for love was fulfilled, if your shame for your moral failures was taken away, if your hopelessness was turned to hope, if your anxiety was turned to peace, by Jesus and His Spirit would you then be convinced He is the way, the truth and the life just as He said He was?

Drugs will take away pain and anxiety but only create a delusion not truth. Perhaps some people are content with a delusion?

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Drugs will take away pain and anxiety but only create a delusion not truth. Perhaps some people are content with a delusion?

Not taking drugs... You didn't answer.

 

[PureX]

Drugs will take away pain and anxiety but only create a delusion not truth. Perhaps some people are content with a delusion?

It's all delusion, Buddy. What you and I call "reality" is an imaginary conceptual landscape that we create in our minds, complete with personalities, and moralities, and histories and that comfortable sense that we know 'what's going on'.

It's true that some of our delusional realities are more bizarre and disconnected from our actual experiences than others, but in the end they're all "delusions". And they're all intended to create the illusion for ourselves that we know what's going on, and so need not live in fear.

Try and keep this in mind, if you can, because it's important to the subject at hand, and to your mental health in general.

(And the same goes for us all.)

 

[alwight]

It's all delusion, Buddy. What you and I call "reality" is an imaginary conceptual landscape that we create in our minds, complete with personalities, and moralities, and histories and that comfortable sense that we know 'what's going on'.

It's true that some of our delusional realities are more bizarre and disconnected from our actual experiences than others, but in the end they're all "delusions". And they're all intended to create the illusion for ourselves that we know what's going on, and so need not live in fear.

Try and keep this in mind, if you can, because it's important to the subject at hand, and to your mental health in general.

(And the same goes for us all.)

If we are just brains in vats then so be it, I can't really help that.

 

[alwight]

Not taking drugs... You didn't answer.

I did answer, religion is the opium of the people, according to Karl Marx anyway.

 

[PureX]

If we are just brains in vats then so be it, I can't really help that.

That's not at all what I said. What I said was that our conceptions of reality are not real. They are, in fact, "delusions". They are elaborate conceptual inventions intended to help us pretend that we know what's going on. When we actually know very little.