ECT Monergist or Synergist

[Nang]

So are we active or passive, or both?
He uses both of those words.

Faith is active but it is not causal.

Total passivity is evidence of unbelief . . which we all know the cause to be.

We are either held in bondage to Satan in passive unbelief, or we are slaves to actively serving Christ's righteousness. Romans 6:15-23

 

[George Affleck]

Faith is active but it is not causal.

Total passivity is evidence of unbelief . . which we all know the cause to be.

We are either held in bondage to Satan in passive unbelief, or we are slaves to actively serving Christ's righteousness. Romans 6:15-23

The question is;
In the quote provided, does Jonathan Edwards, a Puritan Calvinist, believe that, with regard to sanctification, we are active, passive, or both?

 

[George Affleck]

I cannot help you with this struggle you are having. God works in and through us. In all cases it is God's work.
We do the work which God has ordained that we should do. Are you asking if we have free-will? No we don't.

I'm not having a struggle thanks.
You are having a struggle answering and I know why.

I am asking you point blank. According to Jonathan Edward's quote, does he say we are passive, active, or both?

Here it is again:

We are not merely passive in it, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest, but God does all and we do all. God produces all and we act all. For that is what he produces, our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active. (Jonathan Edwards, Writings on the Trinity, Grace, and Faith, in The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 21, [Yale University Press, 2003], 251)

 

[Nang]

The question is;
In the quote provided, does Jonathan Edwards, a Puritan Calvinist, believe that, with regard to sanctification, we are active, passive, or both?

Edwards: "We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active."

This quote describes fallen humanity in its regenerated state. The fallen nature (passive) is, by God's grace alone, newly indwelt by the (alive and active) Holy Spirit.

This quote is not meant as a definition of ~faith~ per se, but speaks of the actuality of the (opposing) natures of (still) sinful man even after regeneration to the new spiritual life in Christ.

(Edwards often leaned more towards "good works" piety in his preaching, than he adhered to Calvin and solid Reformed doctrine of grace alone.)

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not having a struggle thanks.
You are having a struggle answering and I know why.

I am asking you point blank. According to Jonathan Edward's quote, does he say we are passive, active, or both?

Here it is again:

We are not merely passive in it, nor yet does God do some and we do the rest, but God does all and we do all. God produces all and we act all. For that is what he produces, our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors. We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active. (Jonathan Edwards, Writings on the Trinity, Grace, and Faith, in The Works of Jonathan Edwards, vol. 21, [Yale University Press, 2003], 251)

What does this mean to you?

but God does all and we do all. God produces all and we act all. For that is what he produces, our own acts. God is the only proper author and fountain; we only are the proper actors.

Notice Edwards says "He (God) produces our own acts." This means God does it all. No free-will involved, George. Our animation is God produced, God acted, God performed. We are the actors whom God uses.

Now, what does Edwards words mean to you. Since you espouse free-will, I suspect you will twist his words a bit differently.

 

[George Affleck]

What does this mean to you?

Notice Edwards says "He (God) produces our own acts." This means God does it all. No free-will involved, George. Our animation is God produced, God acted, God performed. We are the actors whom God uses.

Now, what does Edwards words mean to you. Since you espouse free-will, I suspect you will twist his words a bit differently.

So let the record show that you refuse to answer the question.

Thank you.

 

[MennoSota]

[

So let the record show that you refuse to answer the question.

Thank you.

George, I certainly didn't fulfill the narrow parameters that you demand. I think your question doesn't address the issue. I belive I most certainly spoke to what Edwards is saying, however, which is more important than your narrow question.

 

[George Affleck]

Edwards: "We are in different respects wholly passive and wholly active."

This quote describes fallen humanity in its regenerated state. The fallen nature (passive) is, by God's grace alone, newly indwelt by the (alive and active) Holy Spirit.

Except for a few things.

1. It is never stated in the Bible that our fallen nature is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or any other spirit. Nor can it be. It is fallen. The Holy Spirit does not take up residence in our fallen nature; it resides in us who have been raised to newness of life.
What is stated is that we are a new creation, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. This is what regeneration is; that which was dead is re-born. If you are a true Calvinist, you will certainly appreciate the total inability of the ungodly versus the new creation created by God in us. It is not the fallen nature that works in the Christian, it is the new creation. What God has called clean, call not thou unclean.

2. Having been re-born, we are alive unto God, brothers and sisters of Christ, able to worship, pray, read and understand, do good works that, because of our new standing in Him, are acceptable unto God because they are made possible by Him. Our struggle is that of the new man against the old which still lingers in the flesh. As Paul testifies: Rom 7:21KJV

This quote is not meant as a definition of ~faith~ per se, but speaks of the actuality of the (opposing) natures of (still) sinful man even after regeneration to the new spiritual life in Christ.

No one said it was a definition of faith, or a definition at all.
If you believe in the opposing natures of still sinful men, which are they? Are they both impotent in serving God?
No. The new nature is the one that we strive to elevate over the old one.

(Edwards often leaned more towards "good works" piety in his preaching, than he adhered to Calvin and solid Reformed doctrine of grace alone.)

That may be your opinion but he is listed with the most productive of the Reformed theologians and is regarded as "the first and most enduring expression of the uncompromising Calvinist theology of the Great Awakening."

 

[MennoSota]

Except for a few things.

1. It is never stated in the Bible that our fallen nature is indwelt by the Holy Spirit or any other spirit. Nor can it be. It is fallen. The Holy Spirit does not take up residence in our fallen nature; it resides in us who have been raised to newness of life.
What is stated is that we are a new creation, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. This is what regeneration is; that which was dead is re-born. If you are a true Calvinist, you will certainly appreciate the total inability of the ungodly versus the new creation created by God in us. It is not the fallen nature that works in the Christian, it is the new creation. What God has called clean, call not thou unclean.

2. Having been re-born, we are alive unto God, brothers and sisters of Christ, able to worship, pray, read and understand, do good works that, because of our new standing in Him, are acceptable unto God because they are made possible by Him. Our struggle is that of the new man against the old which still lingers in the flesh. As Paul testifies: Rom 7:21KJV



No one said it was a definition of faith, or a definition at all.
If you believe in the opposing natures of still sinful men, which are they? Are they both impotent in serving God?
No. The new nature is the one that we strive to elevate over the old one.



That may be your opinion but he is listed with the most productive of the Reformed theologians and is regarded as "the first and most enduring expression of the uncompromising Calvinist theology of the Great Awakening."

George, are you aware that you are arguing for all Christians to have sinless perfection?
Paul certainly did not believe this as he pointed out that the very thing he wished to do, he did not do and that which he did not wish to do, he did. Sin constantly brought its self to the fore. The reality is that Paul constantly fought against sin. He had no hope because the law condemned him. It did not help him. Only Jesus could free Paul from sin. Only God...not Paul. How is it that you cannot accept that our righteousness is all God's work and none of our work?

 

[MennoSota]

The new nature is the one that we strive to elevate over the old one.

I wish to highlight this sentence, George. It is the core, fundamental difference that we have.
If you are striving to elevate the new nature over the old, you will utterly fail.
You are following the law and acting like the Judaisers whom Paul condemned. Having been saved by grace, they required sanctification by keeping the law. Your statement is identical in its principle. Having been made alive in Christ by God grace, you now want to attain holiness by keeping the law by your own striving. This is anathema. You will utterly fail.
No, we are saved by God's grace and we are made holy by God's grace alone. We strive to obey out of a response driven by God’s love. We realize that we can never be holy except by God's gracious work in us. God makes us holy and perfects us through His good work. God brings the fire in the valley of vision. God leads us beside still waters. It is all God working by His good grace.
Your core view is a reverting back to the law. This cannot be.

 

[nikolai_42]

God does all the work in sanctification. We are, by nature, children of wrath. This is not changed simply because God adopts us and justifies us in Christ. There is no good within us by which we can "help" God make us more holy (set apart, sanctified). God must work the work of sanctification in us and through us. It is all God's work. Apart from God we can do nothing.
God will do the work of sanctifying us. He will cause us to do good works, which He has ordained us to do. God will bring us to obedience by His ordained good pleasure. We will do the work He ordains us to do.
Our participation is directed and determined by God. We cannot thwart God's will or stop God from accomplishing his work by virtue of our own will. God will do as He pleases.
George, based upon the Arminian theology you present, I recognize you as a synergist.

I just want to add a point here that I think underscores this debate. And one question that needs to be answered is who the "I" is that is working. If we say it is God and we are merely puppets, then what is the distinction between :

1. when we were dead, unregenerate, without God and without hope in the world

AND

2. when we were born again - raised in newness of life to live after the spirit and not the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof but to do the will of God

If it is indeed God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, who is the one that is to work out his salvation (with fear and trembling)?

Paul said that he died daily (I Corinthians 15:31). He also expressed the struggle - in Romans 7 - that existed between his will to do good and his inability to actually do it. If he is willing to actually do good, where does that come from? Certainly not himself for in him (his flesh) dwells nothing good (Romans 7:18). Yet at the same time, it is clear that he is not talking about some unsaved man because no unsaved man delights in the Law of God (Romans 7:22).

So what is the identity of the one doing these works? The only thing "I" can do is seek righteousness by my own effort. Yet even when that "I" is gone, there remains an "I" that Paul identifies with himself that is, nevertheless, not him :

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:20

"I" am dead (crucified with Christ). Nevertheless "I" live - yet NOT "I", but Christ...even so, passive obedience is not found in the NT. The believer is constantly enjoined to do many things - but this is fruitless unless that one is in Christ. Even so, the works done - what "I" is doing them?

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I Corinthians 3:11-15

And whose fault was it that the church in Sardis was found to have imperfect works?

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Revelation 3:1-3

They live (but are dead)...there are things that are good that remain - but are ready to die....they did hear and are told to hold fast and repent. What is an unregenerate individual to hold fast to? Jesus was not speaking to a group of unbelievers or pretenders - these were believers whose failing works were a cause for serious concern. And nowhere did Jesus say they should just wait for Jesus to bring them to obedience by His good pleasure. It seems to me that the dichotomous "I" shows up in this passage and even finds evidence in Romans 8:13

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Romans 8:13

There is both death and life seen in this church - and Jesus exhorts it to strengthen what remains (alive but ready to die). So I can't help but see that there is - in the life of the believer - a requirement to persevere. Not in his own strength, ability or understanding - but persevere he must. And unless all is fatalism, that believer can make the Kingdom by the skin of his teeth (so as by fire) or with great rewards to cast at the feet of the Savior.

It is certainly a question of who is working, but Paul's identification of those works with "I" show that this is not simply a passive allowance for God to work through us. It is bound up with our very understanding and will. As George has (I believe rightly) pointed out, the believer is brought into great freedom that the unbeliever can't conceive of - because of his bondage to sin.

 

[George Affleck]

If it is indeed God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, who is the one that is to work out his salvation (with fear and trembling)?

It is interesting that some have such difficulty in reading posts with comprehension that minor variances of opinion are not understood in context, with the result that dialogue morphs into a protectionist debate.

Saying that we have a role to play, and actions to perform, in our daily Christian life results in that one being excommunicated from the Calvinist camp, labelled a Judaiser and an Arminian, falling back into the law, believing we can thwart God's will, advocating sinless perfection and destined to fail in their personal walk, among other things.

It doesn't matter that none of these things are true. What matters is that a particular view of Calvinistic doctrine is thought to have been protected and the insurrection quashed by throwing the offender under the bus.

A characteristic of this type of misdirected logic is that main tenets that are already agreed upon are continually restated in an accusatory fashion as if they are being attacked when they are not. Another characteristic is that, when pressed, simple questions cannot be answered due to fears of being cornered.

All of this results in like-minded Christians concluding that a great gulf is fixed between them when, in reality, the subtle nuances are merely cracks in the sidewalk. Exaggeration is an emotional response and is the basis for a great percentage of the clashes here on TOL.

 

[Nang]

The premise of my view that Sanctification is monergistic rather than synergistic is my belief Holy Scripture teaches Unconditional Coventantalism.

God is a Covenant God and His promises to His people stand upon the authority and validity of His Word. None of what He has promised to the church of Jesus Christ is conditional upon human choices, works, or even activity.

Righteousness is found in the Son of God alone. Faith and trust in His righteousness is the instrument that saves our souls and there is not a thing we can or should add to it.

If a person professes to believe in the righteousness of Jesus Christ and then persists in living an unrepentant life . . they are not breaching covenant, nor will God judge them as doing so. They simply evidence they are not a member of the spiritual body of Christ to begin with.

God does not promise a conditional pardon; never is forgiveness made conditional. A justified soul will live a sanctified life in Christ, doing holy and good works, because he has been justified unto everlasting life. Even when he stumbles in sin, he remains justified and sanctified.

This is the amazing grace of God. The unconditional promises, pardon, and presence of the Holy Spirit in every member of Christ's spiritual body IS the assurance of everlasting life . . realized through the Godly gift of faith to rest and trust in Jesus Christ for any and all righteousness in this lifetime.

I fear that entertaining a view of synergistic sanctification has led to several errors in the earthly churches. Particularly I oppose the Federal Vision movement that has invaded and corrupted too many Reformed churches. It is my hope that all Reformers would be aware of and on serious guard against this wrong teaching.

 

[MennoSota]

The question is;
In the quote provided, does Jonathan Edwards, a Puritan Calvinist, believe that, with regard to sanctification, we are active, passive, or both?

Regarding sanctification God does it all. God gives us the works of faith.
It's all God, none of George. You cannot help God sanctify you.

 

[nikolai_42]

Regarding sanctification God does it all. God gives us the works of faith.
It's all God, none of George. You cannot help God sanctify you.

Do you believe you can choose whether to carry out the works that God gives you as a justified, regenerate believer?

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
I Corinthians 9:24-27

Is Paul a passive (essentially) observer in all this?

 

[MennoSota]

It is certainly a question of who is working, but Paul's identification of those works with "I" show that this is not simply a passive allowance for God to work through us. It is bound up with our very understanding and will. As George has (I believe rightly) pointed out, the believer is brought into great freedom that the unbeliever can't conceive of - because of his bondage to sin.

You frame your presupposition that God doing the work makes humans mere puppets. You express that the person dead in sin certainly had no will by which s/he could be saved, but after being made alive in Christ, s/he actively cooperates with God in either willful obedience or willful disobedience that results in our sanctification...or not...
Question: Did the regenerate man perform his own crucifixion or did God crucify him with/in Christ? When that person is physically alive in the body is it Christ physically living or is it that person? How is the life, lived in the body actually lived? Paul answers this. It is lived by faith.
Who gives the gift of faith is it God or do we manufacture that faith on our own? Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is God's gift. He gives it. He works it out in our lives. We act it out.
So, does our acting out what God has ordained make us puppets? You say, Yes. I say no.

Romans 9:18-26,30-33

[18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
[24]And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
[25]Concerning the Gentiles, God says in the prophecy of Hosea, “Those who were not my people, I will now call my people. And I will love those whom I did not love before.”
[26]And, “Then, at the place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”
[30]What does all this mean? Even though the Gentiles were not trying to follow God’s standards, they were made right with God. And it was by faith that this took place.
[31]But the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded.
[32]Why not? Because they were trying to get right with God by keeping the law instead of by trusting in him. They stumbled over the great rock in their path.
[33]God warned them of this in the Scriptures when he said, “I am placing a stone in Jerusalem that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall. But anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.”

My suggestion to you and George is that you leave the law out of your sanctification. You were not saved by works and you are not sanctified by works.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you believe you can choose whether to carry out the works that God gives you as a justified, regenerate believer?

Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
I Corinthians 9:24-27

Is Paul a passive (essentially) observer in all this?

We can obey or not obey. God will sanctify us regardless. God will accomplish every work He has for us to do. We cannot thwart God's will or God's work within us or through us. We do not have that kind of power to thwart God.

 

[nikolai_42]

This is the amazing grace of God. The unconditional promises, pardon, and presence of the Holy Spirit in every member of Christ's spiritual body IS the assurance of everlasting life . . realized through the Godly gift of faith to rest and trust in Jesus Christ for any and all righteousness in this lifetime.

Indeed, the promises and provisions of God are many and beyond our capacity to replicate or imitate. This is not an issue. But while the Holy Spirit is the seal of God upon the believer, why would it be necessary (if we in no sense work) to warn the believer of this :

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:30

This is no question of working for salvation, but of working to be fruitful in what God has given us. And even then, it isn't about us doing things of our own selves (which Paul says must die daily) but rather building upon the only foundation that can be efficaciously built upon - Christ. We die...yet we work.

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
I Corinthians 3:9-11

 

[nikolai_42]

You frame your presupposition that God doing the work makes humans mere puppets. You express that the person dead in sin certainly had no will by which s/he could be saved, but after being made alive in Christ, s/he actively cooperates with God in either willful obedience or willful disobedience that results in our sanctification...or not...
Question: Did the regenerate man perform his own crucifixion or did God crucify him with/in Christ? When that person is physically alive in the body is it Christ physically living or is it that person? How is the life, lived in the body actually lived? Paul answers this. It is lived by faith.
Who gives the gift of faith is it God or do we manufacture that faith on our own? Ephesians 2:8-9 states that faith is God's gift. He gives it. He works it out in our lives. We act it out.
So, does our acting out what God has ordained make us puppets? You say, Yes. I say no.

Romans 9:18-26,30-33

My suggestion to you and George is that you leave the law out of your sanctification. You were not saved by works and you are not sanctified by works.

Was Abraham acting by law when he believed God and did what God directed him to do?

 

[George Affleck]

Reading the Bible is a necessary part of the Christian life and where the Holy Spirit can sanctify our hearts and minds.

It is God who makes this possible and who speaks to our spirits that we should do this.

But He does not pick up the Bible, turn the pages and read for us. He does not meditate, learn or profit from it. We are active in this process just as He was active in making it possible, bringing it about and illuminating our minds as we read.

None of this has anything to do with the doctrines of justification or salvation. With regard to these principles, we are entirely passive. But sanctification is not exactly like these other doctrines because of the new creature that has been created.