ECT Monergist or Synergist

[Nang]

We are not differing on action. We are differing in who is the cause of that action.
You are arguing that you and God consult together in causing sanctification. I am arguing that just as God caused us to be raised from death unto life, God also caused us to be justified and is causing us to be sanctified (set apart) for His glory. We cannot set ourselves apart by our own efforts. We don't cause our sanctification. God orchestrates our lives and causes us to be made, more and more, in the likeness of Jesus. Malachi 3 presents this as Jesus being the silversmith who refines us. The silver does not refine itself. It is only refined by the efforts of the silversmith in heating the silver and skimming off the impurity until the silversmith can see his reflection in the purified silver.
Malachi 3:2-3
[2]“But who will be able to endure it when he comes? Who will be able to stand and face him when he appears? For he will be like a blazing fire that refines metal, or like a strong soap that bleaches clothes.
[3]He will sit like a refiner of silver, burning away the dross. He will purify the Levites, refining them like gold and silver, so that they may once again offer acceptable sacrifices to the lord.

Unfortunately, many mistakenlly think that the Monergist denies that the necessity of good works unto obedience is required of the Christian, but this is a false view. The book of James obviously refers to good works being the fruit (and required witness) of the believer's profession of faith.

What the Monergist does deny is the error of a Christian wanting to take credit for any of their good works or becoming dependent upon personal piety with the motive to earn merit with God.

Such leaning upon producing meritorious good works leads to a variety of doctrinal errors and/or pride. It is to look upon one's self instead of solely looking to and trusting in the Person of Jesus Christ for all righteousness.

Jesus taught the dynamic and purpose of monergistic sanctification in John 15:1-8.

For He said, " . . without Me, you can do nothing." John 15:5b

 

[Ktoyou]

You have it backwards , there are only those who are faithing towards God " pisteuo " , and those who are faithing away from God " apisteuo " .

There are no ists or isms in God's world !

I agree, it is a bit of a half baked stupid argument, yet I think you are misdirecting the topic, more than adding to it. Try to respond to a topic, which interests you.

 

[Ktoyou]

I read that too. The main issue is "regardless of the individual's cooperation"

Both sited from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monergism

Do not paste and copy, as if you take credit for an original idea, it is fake and silly!

 

[Ktoyou]

Unfortunately, many mistakenlly think that the Monergist denies that the necessity of good works unto obedience is required of the Christian, but this is a false view. The book of James obviously refers to good works being the fruit (and required witness) of the believer's profession of faith.

What the Monergist does deny is the error of a Christian wanting to take credit for any of their good works or becoming dependent upon personal piety with the motive to earn merit with God.

Such leaning upon producing meritorious good works leads to a variety of doctrinal errors and/or pride. It is to look upon one's self instead of solely looking to and trusting in the Person of Jesus Christ for all righteousness.

Jesus taught the dynamic and purpose of monergistic sanctification in John 15:1-8.

For He said, " . . without Me, you can do nothing." John 15:5b

:idunno: Monergists believe man does nothing, so, how can that be pride?

 

[Ktoyou]

God is responsible for some stuff, but we are responsible for some stuff as well. That seems like synergist.

Are you unable to write well enough to say what "some stuff" means? This is why I think the forum has gone down hill. Copy and paste threads, and then simple, not well explained words have taken the place of good dialogue.

Nang at least wrote out her beliefs on the topic in some detail; I give her credit for that

 

[MennoSota]

Are you unable to write well enough to say what "some stuff" means? This is why I think the forum has gone down hill. Copy and paste threads, and then simple, not well explained words have taken the place of good dialogue.

Nang at least wrote out her beliefs on the topic in some detail; I give her credit for that

What was unclear? Do you require a detailed list?

 

[Nang]

:idunno: Monergists believe man does nothing, so, how can that be pride?

This defines most Open Theists. . . not Monergists.

And I believe you are addressing the means of Justification rather than the resultant holy good works that follows regeneration, which I was addressing.

 

[Ktoyou]

This defines most Open Theists. . . not Monergists.

And I believe you are addressing the means of Justification rather than the resultant holy good works that follows regeneration, which I was addressing.

Open Theists believe man does way more, not less. They believe God is more limited, not totally immutable. They believe God either cannot, or does not choose to see the future.

The topic naturally follows the means of justification, I do not choose the topic.

I believe only faith can save, not works or justification, so I am a bit like the OV, but not going as far on man's freewill.

BTW: You are my age, i am loosing my eyesight for print unless very large, I hope you are doing better?

 

[Ktoyou]

What was unclear? Do you require a detailed list?

I require some sentences explaining what you men by "stuff", and expect dialogue. saying "stuff" seems more like you are describing how a teddy-bear is made.

 

[Nang]

Open Theists believe man does way more, not less. They believe God is more limited, not totally immutable. They believe God either cannot, or does not choose to see the future.

Open Theists are not Monergists. They get offended when it is suggested Christians should live in the way of Godly obedience.

I believe only faith can save, not works or justification, so I am a bit like the OV, but not going as far on man's freewill.

Christians are saved by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in the Person and works of Jesus Christ, alone, according to the Holy Scriptures alone, to the glory of God alone.

That is the Monergistic view.

BTW: You are my age, i am loosing my eyesight for print unless very large, I hope you are doing better?

My sympathies. I have suffered with eye disorders for several years now, but keeping up with the deterioration pretty well.

Thanks for your latest and friendly posts . . .

 

[MennoSota]

I require some sentences explaining what you men by "stuff", and expect dialogue. saying "stuff" seems more like you are describing how a teddy-bear is made.

Stuff is a fine term.
In this case, it brings all our actions into play in that the synergist sees them self as a co-actor with God in their own sanctification. Whatever the "stuff" they find themselves doing, they see God as a consultant with them to point out the actions they must do. The real issue boils down to this:
The person views God as the sole actor in salvation (grace), but after that, God is dictating the script for the human to act out in sanctification (law/legalism). It is the very problem that Paul is working to correct in the Galatians. Having been saved by grace, the Galatians were being coerced to sanctify themselves by keeping the law. They wanted rules that they could follow.
I often hear Christians state that they don't want theology in a sermon, they just want application. What they are really saying is "Just give me some laws to follow."
Syncretism essentially, at its base, calls on God to give the Christian laws to follow so that they might be able to make themselves holy and show God how good they are doing.
Better?

 

[Ktoyou]

Stuff is a fine term.

Come to think of it, I am, from now on, only going to post where you are NOT able to read it. So many of you newbie are all rude idiots who think they do not owe any respect to charter members. Not going to put each and all on ignore, which only blocks my view, not how you respond. Just to let you know, I think you should stuff it!

 

[MennoSota]

Come to think of it, I am, from now on, only going to post where you are NOT able to read it. So many of you newbie are all rude idiots who think they do not owe any respect to charter members. Not going to put each and all on ignore, which only blocks my view, not how you respond. Just to let you know, I think you should stuff it!

Notice who is calling a person derogatory names? The so-called charter member...
I addressed the issue. You can discuss monergism and synergism or you can leave the thread.

 

[MennoSota]

Ah , were not saved by Grace alone , we are saved by Grace through Faith , faithing being the application of said Faith .

You consistently leave Faith and Faithing out of every understanding you present . That makes your understanding , as you present it , a half truth . And a half truth = error .

No I don't. I point out that faith is a gift given by God to the elect so that we might do the good works which God has ordained us to do. (Ephesians 2)

 

[Nang]

No I don't. I point out that faith is a gift given by God to the elect so that we might do the good works which God has ordained us to do. (Ephesians 2)

Agreed.

Key language being: "God has ordained us to do."

This completely eliminates Sovereign God's determined good works, being reduced to the product of mere arbitrary actions of human free-will choices.

 

[George Affleck]

We are not differing on action. We are differing in who is the cause of that action.

I don't think so. We both know that God is the enabler. The question is not who is the cause, but rather, are we active or passive. I say we are active according to our several abilities. We question the salvation of those who are not active in the Christian life, so why would we then turn around and say it is impossible to be active?

You are arguing that you and God consult together in causing sanctification.

No I am not. Consultation is back and forth communication. I never advocated for that. He speaks, I listen; as a direct result of now being able to hear. And when I act on what I hear from Him, He is glorified.

I am arguing that just as God caused us to be raised from death unto life, God also caused us to be justified...

Correct. You do not need to argue that point with me.

...and is causing us to be sanctified (set apart) for His glory. We cannot set ourselves apart by our own efforts. We don't cause our sanctification.

I did not say we caused it. I said we are involved in it because of being enabled. God enables us to participate by restoring our will to do so. We are not still dead. We are alive unto God.

You are missing, in my opinion, an important thing. There are two aspects to sanctification. One is the legal setting apart called positional sanctification in which we are called and declared, by God and without our intervention, to be saints 1Co 1:2KJV as a direct result of salvation/justification. The other aspect is the ongoing process of being conformed to the image of Christ; otherwise known as the Christian life. It is the second aspect only to which I am referring and it is the one most talked about among Christians. If we are not enabled to go, why does He tell his disciples to go unto the world and preach the gospel?

God orchestrates our lives and causes us to be made, more and more, in the likeness of Jesus. Malachi 3 presents this as Jesus being the silversmith who refines us.

In the progress of revelation, more light is shone onto these subjects by the N.T. Because the final sacrifice had not yet been made in history, it is precarious to narrow Malachi's prophecy down to just this, in my opinion. I think he was talking about when Jesus would set foot on earth and expose the religious establishment. Perhaps a better verse to support your arguement is Heb 10:10KJV. But there are many other verses which tell us to involve ourselves in the process of redeeming others.

If it is God, without our involvement whatsoever, who makes us more and more like Christ, then let us eat, drink and be merry. I'm not involved, so let grace abound.

The silver does not refine itself. It is only refined by the efforts of the silversmith in heating the silver and skimming off the impurity until the silversmith can see his reflection in the purified silver.
Malachi 3:2-3

I see the refining in this chapter as referring to Jesus culling out the religiously impure; non- Christians. However, if it applies only to Christians as you say, the argument here is not whether we grow in grace by ourselves without God (impossible), or God causes us to grow in grace without us (puppetry). The question is, are we active or passive in the process.

 

[George Affleck]

George , there is a grey area when I read your words . I'm not getting a sense of what your understanding of Faith is , and how it is applied .

The specific words I'm asking you to address are pistis the noun , and pisteuo the verb . Your understanding , not a googled definition .

I realize that you filter everything through your pet doctrine but I have no desire to derail this thread with you.
Blessings.

 

[George Affleck]

You have it backwards , there are only those who are faithing towards God " pisteuo " , and those who are faithing away from God " apisteuo " .

There are no ists or isms in God's world !

There are only 2 kinds of people in this world.

There are those who think there are only 2 kinds of people, and those who don't.

 

[MennoSota]

I don't think so. We both know that God is the enabler. The question is not who is the cause, but rather, are we active or passive. I say we are active according to our several abilities. We question the salvation of those who are not active in the Christian life, so why would we then turn around and say it is impossible to be active?


No I am not. Consultation is back and forth communication. I never advocated for that. He speaks, I listen; as a direct result of now being able to hear. And when I act on what I hear from Him, He is glorified.


Correct. You do not need to argue that point with me.


I did not say we caused it. I said we are involved in it because of being enabled. God enables us to participate by restoring our will to do so. We are not still dead. We are alive unto God.

You are missing, in my opinion, an important thing. There are two aspects to sanctification. One is the legal setting apart called positional sanctification in which we are called and declared, by God and without our intervention, to be saints 1Co 1:2KJV as a direct result of salvation/justification. The other aspect is the ongoing process of being conformed to the image of Christ; otherwise known as the Christian life. It is the second aspect only to which I am referring and it is the one most talked about among Christians. If we are not enabled to go, why does He tell his disciples to go unto the world and preach the gospel?


In the progress of revelation, more light is shone onto these subjects by the N.T. Because the final sacrifice had not yet been made in history, it is precarious to narrow Malachi's prophecy down to just this, in my opinion. I think he was talking about when Jesus would set foot on earth and expose the religious establishment. Perhaps a better verse to support your arguement is Heb 10:10KJV. But there are many other verses which tell us to involve ourselves in the process of redeeming others.

If it is God, without our involvement whatsoever, who makes us more and more like Christ, then let us eat, drink and be merry. I'm not involved, so let grace abound.



I see the refining in this chapter as referring to Jesus culling out the religiously impure; non- Christians. However, if it applies only to Christians as you say, the argument here is not whether we grow in grace by ourselves without God (impossible), or God causes us to grow in grace without us (puppetry). The question is, are we active or passive in the process.

You seem to mix our obedience to God direction with the process of sanctification.
We are sanctified solely by God's good pleasure. He ordains each step in our path so that He will separate us from sin and bring glory to His name. We cannot assist Him, for though we are justified by Jesus propitiation for our sins, we still posses this body of death.
Romans 7:21-25

[21]I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong.
[22]I love God’s law with all my heart.
[23]But there is another power within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me.
[24]Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death?
[25]Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

It is a foolish thing for the saints to imagine that there is even a speck of goodness within us that we might assist our Holy Redeemer in our sanctification. We cannot for our righteousness is as filthy rags. Our sanctification is wholly the work of God alone, apart from us.
The works that God directs us to do are by His good pleasure and our obedience to those good works is brought about by God's work within us that we might be His workmanship. We can therefore take no glory for our actions nor boast in our cooperation with God. Left to ourselves, we would rebel in accordance with our sinful nature. It must be ever God who is sanctifying us or there is no sanctification at all, but only a self-righteousness disguised as holiness.

 

[MennoSota]

Pisteuo is my pet doctrine ! God and His word are built on it !!

How would You apply pisteuo to this thread and which one are you ?

Monergism or Synergism? Stay on topic. You have a thread on your false concept of faith that you can keep posting at. You've been corrected over 1000 times at that thread so leave it there.
Here, are you a monergist or a synergist?