glorydaz
Well-known member
The law and works go together. Either deliver them from the law and put them under grace, or leave them with their faith and works.
Mid Acts Disponsationalism
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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The law and works go together. Either deliver them from the law and put them under grace, or leave them with their faith and works.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I did read that when you posted it before, and I just read it again. I like it. I have found it to be true in my own life...especially at this time when I am facing a situation where I cannot possibly muster up love by my own efforts. I thought of this verse....
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
We simply cannot do anything on our own. Yep, leaning on the everlasting arms is the only way to go.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The believing Jews who lived under the law were already delivered from the law as far as salvation is concerned:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:24).
The Jews who lived under the law were saved the second they believed:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the Law could believe but yet not be saved. According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the Law could believe but yet if he did not do the required "works" then he woud not be saved.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It appears you want your cake and eat it to. Live under the law...delivered from the law. :think:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
The Jews who lived under the law were delivered from it in this sense:
"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (Ro.10:24).
Of course you never address any verse which contradict your ideas so instead of offering anything intelligent all you can do is to offer an inane statement.
It not only seems, but it is obvious, that you do not believe what is said here:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the Law could believe but yet not be saved. According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the Law could believe but yet if he did not do the required "works" then he woud not be saved.
And of course instead of addressing the meaning of John 3:16 you just ignored it.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Nope! Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
heir
TOL Subscriber
Clete's good news is to withhold it to those he deems unworthy as we've all seen what he believes is "the most loving thing" he "can say to a homo":
What Clete says above is wrong. I’ve shown why, but will reiterate. It’s quite simple, really. It's wrong because it goes against the reconciliation that was made (Romans 5, 2 Corinthians 5) and the will of God (1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!
Who here has said that in order for the righteousness of God to be upon someone that they do not need to be reconciled to God as you implied above? Certainly not me, as I believe as saith the scripture, that the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus Christ is UNTO ALL (that’s ALL and excludes no one) and UPON ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE (put to the account of them that believe Romans 3:21-22 KJV). The very righteousness of God that is unto all and upon all them that believe is revealed in the gospel of Christ (Romans 1:16-17 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV).
So how will all of those who make Clete sick hear? When will he preach it to them? What will they have to do to qualify for him to preach it to them? What will he tell them? "What's the most loving thing" he "can say to a homo"?
glorydaz
Well-known member
When we were enemies......newsflash, there still are enemies of God. Those who have not yet been reconciled to Him. I wrote what I did because you don't seem to understand that reconciliation requires both parties to agree before peace is reached.
I think you've jumped to some conclusions here. The most loving thing we can do is spank our child when they need it, but someone will always come along and say it shouldn't be done. Actually, it's often the father who spanks and the mother who cuddles. Good cop - bad cop.
I didn't have to "imply" anything. I was simply responding to what you said. Reconciliation takes two. There are still enemies of God walking among us.
I imagine they'll hear when the bad cop has had his say. Or, when the foot gets done kicking and the hand comes along to stroke. That's the point, Heir. For example, John W has a ministry here and he can be very rough...he is but one tool in the body's arsenal. I'm not sure why you can't see that.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those words are found in a narrative which is describing the events leading up to the great tribulation:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:31-32).
The reference to the "end" at Matthew 24:13 is the "end" of the great tribulation when the Lord Jesus will save in a physical sense all those who have endured endured to the end of the grat tribulation:
"In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).
Your idea cannot possibly be right because these words prove that "whosoever" believes will be saved:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
According to you ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believe and yet not be saved. According to you a Jew who lived under the law could believe and if he didn't endure to the end then he wouldn't be saved.
I gave you the meaning of what is said at Matthew 10:22 so please give me your interpretation of the meaning of this verse:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
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glorydaz
Well-known member
Live under the law or delivered from the law.....which is it? You say both.
opcorn:
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to your ideas no one living under the law could be saved apart from works of the Law. But here we read that those who lived under the Law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).
Here we can see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it of works then it cannot said to be by grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
You say that the believing Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works even though their salvation was on the principle of grace.
All you prove is the fact that you are clueless in regard to the grace of God and therefore you cannot possibly believe the gospel of the grace of God since you have no understanding of God's grace.
And that explains why you remain clueless when it comes to understanding what is written in the Bible:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
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:idea:
When have I ever suggested withholding the gospel from anyone?
You've lost your mind. You need to calm down and stop being such an emotional reactionary. No one has suggested that homos can't be saved and in fact I've said just the opposite to you more than once.
The fact that they can be saved does not change what justice demands! A saved murderer should still be executed for his crime. Will he go to heaven? Absolutely he will if he's a believer. How is that so hard to understand?
I Timothy 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Not hard at all.
heir
TOL Subscriber
:chuckle: You are the one that needs to calm down. You are so emotionally charged by what someone does in the flesh, you can't see straight. All one has to do is read what you believe is "the most loving thing" you can "say to a homo", to see that there couldn't be a moment when you actually give the good news to a "homo" as you would have hollered them into the other direction as you tell them to get out of your face, that God is their enemy and so are you. You haven't a clue about the ministry of reconciliation nor are you committed the word of it.
So how will all of those who make you sick hear? When will you preach it to them? What will they have to do to qualify for you to preach it to them? What will you tell them? "What's the most loving thing" you "can say to a homo"?
glorydaz
Well-known member
Heir, you are taking this way too personally. If it bothers you so much, why aren't you railing on John W. Now that man can holler and get in people's faces like nobody's business. And, he can be quite effective. Why are you jumping on Clete as if telling someone the truth is not the most loving thing anyone can do...even if it is harsh? Have we become so politically correct that we can't even point out uncleanness when we see it? Open rebuke is not a bad thing, and can be exactly what someone needs to hear before they are open to receiving the gospel.
Matthew 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Those same words are found in a narrative which is describing the events leading up to the great tribulation:
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Mt.24:31-32).
The reference to the "end" at Matthew 24:13 is the "end" of the great tribulation when the Lord Jesus will save in a physical sense all those who have endured endured to the end of the grat tribulation:
"In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem" (Zech.12:8-9).
Your idea cannot possibly be right because these words prove that "whosoever" believes will be saved:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
According to you ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believe and yet not be saved. According to you a Jew who lived under the law could believe and if he didn't endure to the end then he wouldn't be saved.
I gave you the meaning of what is said at Matthew 10:22 so please give me your interpretation of the meaning of this verse:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
According to your ideas no one living under the law could be saved apart from works of the Law. But here we read that those who lived under the Law were saved by grace through faith:
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham" (Ro.4:16).
Here we can see that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by grace through faith. And if it of works then it cannot said to be by grace:
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).
You say that the believing Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works even though their salvation was on the principle of grace.
All you prove is the fact that you are clueless in regard to the grace of God and therefore you cannot possibly believe the gospel of the grace of God since you have no understanding of God's grace.
And that explains why you remain clueless when it comes to understanding what is written in the Bible:
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Cor.2:14).
One man plants, another waters and the harvest is of God, not man.
I'd share the gospel with a repentant homosexual but they'd have to be repentant or else I'd be throwing pearls before swine, wasting both their time and mine. No one grasps for a life preserver if they don't believe their lives are in jeopardy.
I have no problem with people sharing the gospel with anyone they like. What I have a problem with is people who think that being nice is biblical. It isn't. Being honest is biblical. Telling the truth is biblical. Allowing the offense of the truth to work its ministry is biblical. Millions will go to Hell because Christians are so nice that people never even get told that they are are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. That's a phrase out of the bible, in case you didn't know.
I puke really loudly?
When they realize that they and the things they do are gross and perverse.
The most loving thing (not the nicest thing) that you can say to a homo is....
"You're an evil, disgusting, pervert! Get away from me and my family right now!!"
If, by chance, you happen to have a homo ask you why everyone thinks they're gross (which would never ever happen if people acted the way you do). Then you might say...
"Ew! You're a homo?! It's because you are gross!"
Or whatever else you can come up with that communicates to them that they are in fact perverted and disgusting. Until they get the message there is no hope for their soul. They will go to Hell if they do not repent. There's no way to change direction if you don't know you're headed the wrong way.
If, by some minor miracle, a homo says to you, "Oh my God! I'm doomed! I've hurt everyone I've ever known and destroyed my life and the lives of dozens of others! What am I going to do?!"
THEN you show them where hope is! THEN you show them the way out! THEN there is hope for their redemption, not before!
They are capital criminals heir! They aren't guilty of telling a white lie to spare their momma's feelings or of stealing a grape from the grocery store. They didn't con grandma out of her life's saving like the T.V. preachers do or beat someone up in a bar fight after having a few too many. They've committed not just a sin, not just a crime but a capital crime. A crime, according to God, on the same par as murder, incest, rape, kidnapping and adultery. The things they do are not simply life choices. Their actions hurt whole societies! And what's more they HATE God and I mean not just a little bit! You're worried that they'll never get to meet God because they'll hate me and Bob Enyart but what you don't get is that they don't hate God because of people who are telling them the truth. They know the truth already (on an intuitive level) and THAT'S why they hate God. Your preaching at an unrepentant homo is as likely to get you beat up or killed as it is anything else. You gotta use your head for something other than a hat rack and make wise decisions. Stop feeling your way through life, stop worrying about whether someone is going to like you and do something that has some chance of succeeding.
Resting in Him,
Clete