METHINKS IT IS A WEASEL

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bob b

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Lord Vader said:
What was your analogy, again?

Try the "short" version from an earlier posting in this thread.

"I haven't heard any evolutionist say that there might be merit in the concept that like letter changes in languages, changes in individual proteins might be constrained by their appearance and activities in multiple subsystems and higher level systems simultaneously."
 

aharvey

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bob b said:
Try the "short" version from an earlier posting in this thread.

"I haven't heard any evolutionist say that there might be merit in the concept that like letter changes in languages, changes in individual proteins might be constrained by their appearance and activities in multiple subsystems and higher level systems simultaneously."
Perhaps because there is no merit in a concept that confounds even its sole proponent's attempts to articulate it coherently?
 

bob b

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aharvey said:
Perhaps because there is no merit in a concept that confounds even its sole proponent's attempts to articulate it coherently?

It's not my fault that some people are so rigidly wedded to a false paradigm that they can't see the forest for all those trees.

Try The Source of Novels again.
 

Lord Vader

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bob b said:
Try the "short" version from an earlier posting in this thread.

"I haven't heard any evolutionist say that there might be merit in the concept that like letter changes in languages, changes in individual proteins might be constrained by their appearance and activities in multiple subsystems and higher level systems simultaneously."

I'm sorry. I do not understand that paragraph.
 

bob b

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Lord Vader said:
I'm sorry. I do not understand that paragraph.

Try a slighty longer version.

Proteins within lifeforms are analogous to the English language, because any new protein (sentence) obtained by a simple mutation must function (make sense to an editor) and also must not disrupt or negatively affect the feedback control mechanism of which it is a component (paragraph) as well as also not negatively affecting any higher level feedback control mechanism in which it also participates (chapter).

It is well known that proteins do not act in isolation, but in fact act as components arranged as biological feedback control systems, and further that defects in a single protein can impact many different bodily control systems, indicating the "wheel within a wheel" nature of the complexity of the overall systems and subsystems of any lifeform.

All of this constrains what changes could be selected by natural selection, which only operates at levels above the simple single protein mutation level.
 

bob b

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Lord Vader said:
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Sorry.

You first said that you did not understand.

I then drafted a longer explanation.

You did not respond.

I pointed out you did not respond.

You then responded by saying that you still did not understand.

I am uncertain how I should proceed, except to ask if anyone else did not understand what I said or if Lord Vader is the only one who has trouble understanding that one can not create a control system from scratch by making tiny errors in DNA.

I checked with talk.origins to see if they had a credible explanation. All they had was a claim that tiny errors is all that is needed: i.e. no backup for the claim.
 

bob b

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Dawkins has demonstrated how easy it is to converge on a target sentence assuming a "head monkey" who saves intermediate "tries" that are closer to the desired target sentence.

Of course evolution doesn't work that way because there is no "target sentence" and no "head monkey" who saves tries that are closer to the target sentence.

A better test is to see if his valid sentence METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL , could be transformed into any other valid sentence by a single letter change.

The theory of evolution of course requires that each "try" must result not only in a valid result, but one which is "better", so that natural selection would preserve it and spread it throughout the population.

The procedure is as follows:

There are 28 letters and spaces in the sentence. We treat a space as a letter, hence there would be 26 new possible changes for each position of the sentence.

We will try changing each of the 28 positions of the sentence in turn and see if a new meaningful sentence results. We use the WORDEX dictionary for valid words and our God given brain to judge any new meaningful sentences.

Position 1, M:
There is no valid sentence which could be derived by trying the other 25 letters & space.
Position 2, E: Ditto
Positions 3, T: Ditto
Positions 4, H: Ditto
Positions 5, I: Ditto
Positions 6, N: Ditto
Positions 7, K: Ditto
Positions 8, S: Ditto
Position 9, space: Ditto
Position 10, I: Ditto
Position 11, T: Ditto
Position 12, space: Ditto
Position 13, I: Ditto
Position 14, S: Ditto
Position 15, space: Ditto
Position 16, L: Ditto
Position 17, I: Ditto
Position 18, K: Ditto
Position 19, E: Ditto
Position 20, space: Ditto
Position 21, A: Ditto
Position 22, space: Ditto
Position 23, W: Ditto
Position 24, E: Ditto
Position 25, A: Ditto
Position 26, S: Ditto
Position 27, E: Ditto
Position 28, L: Ditto

Conclusion: One can not derive any other valid and meaningful sentence by making a single letter (or space) change to any of the 28 positions in the sentence, METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
 
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bob b

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So we can easily see from the METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL example that it is extremely difficult in the case of an English sentence to generate another meaningful English sentence by making a small change to it, a single change in one position.

In the same way it should be obvious that in the case of a biological control system, which consists of dozens of proteins acting in harmony, that it is difficult to make a single change in the DNA which will result in a modified protein that will be more "meaningful" in the context of its function in that feedback control system, and hence would be preserved by Natural Selection and spread throughout a population.

Microevolution: maybe. Macroevolution: definitely no.
 

Jukia

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bob b said:
So we can easily see from the METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL example that it is extremely difficult in the case of an English sentence to generate another meaningful English sentence by making a small change to it, a single change in one position.

In the same way it should be obvious that in the case of a biological control system, which consists of dozens of proteins acting in harmony, that it is difficult to make a single change in the DNA which will result in a modified protein that will be more "meaningful" in the context of its function in that feedback control system, and hence would be preserved by Natural Selection and spread throughout a population.

Microevolution: maybe. Macroevolution: definitely no.

Although, based on your example and your comments it would seem that even micro evolution would be impossible if it depended on changing DNA. Can you explain further?
 

bob b

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Jukia said:
Although, based on your example and your comments it would seem that even micro evolution would be impossible if it depended on changing DNA. Can you explain further?

As we have seen in another thread, most examples given by evolutionists to illustrate microevolution, e.g. antibiotic resistence, pesticide resistence, sickle cell anemia, are actually examples of devolution or deterioration.

This is because people confuse the term "beneficial" with "improvement".

Lifeforms do show an amazing ability to adapt in order to survive. But it is clear that this has little to do with "mutations", copying errors, because that process is far too slow to enable a population to adapt to new circumstances rapidly enough to avoid extinction.
 

Jukia

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bob b said:
As we have seen in another thread, most examples given by evolutionists to illustrate microevolution, e.g. antibiotic resistence, pesticide resistence, sickle cell anemia, are actually examples of devolution or deterioration.

This is because people confuse the term "beneficial" with "improvement".

Lifeforms do show an amazing ability to adapt in order to survive. But it is clear that this has little to do with "mutations", copying errors, because that process is far too slow to enable a population to adapt to new circumstances rapidly enough to avoid extinction.
Not an answer to my question. I asked for an explanation of why your example causes problems for macro evolution but might not for micro evolution. I fail to see an answer to my question in your post.
 

bob b

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Jukia said:
Not an answer to my question. I asked for an explanation of why your example causes problems for macro evolution but might not for micro evolution. I fail to see an answer to my question in your post.

The answer is in my post but you cannot see it as others can.

That is because your emotional attachment to a "fairy tale for adults" blinds you to the truth.

Science is against evolution.
 
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Lord Vader

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bob b said:
You first said that you did not understand.

I then drafted a longer explanation.

You did not respond.

I pointed out you did not respond.

You then responded by saying that you still did not understand.

Thanks for the run down?

I am uncertain how I should proceed, except to ask if anyone else did not understand what I said or if Lord Vader is the only one who has trouble understanding that one can not create a control system from scratch by making tiny errors in DNA.

You didn't say the words, "control system" in a previous post, "tiny errors". Indeed, all of your posts use different words and seem to be talking about different things, or pointing to things that are off camera... it just sounds an awful lot like cant, which I distrust. When someone needs me to explain something, I just try and explain it, and if they don't get it, I look for another way to explain it. I don't think I introduce new phrases and terms as if each time I am now talking about something else; something that is, well, off camera, and you just have to keep asking about it before I'll move the camera over to what I'm talking about... that's just odd. This whole thing just has the ring of a con job - and it doesn't help that you keep using phrases like "fairy tale"; phrases that have been used against creationists, as if you are merely having fun getting some kind of cheap revenge. There's just something not genuine about all this.

I checked with talk.origins to see if they had a credible explanation. All they had was a claim that tiny errors is all that is needed: i.e. no backup for the claim.

Do you have the exact url?
 

fool

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Within your flood model you use one sentence of "it's a dog " to get all the; it's a dog, it's a wolf, it's a cyote, it's a dingo, it's a fox, it's a hyena, ect. (please correct me if I've made a strawman here, amend as nessasary).
Within this frame work, which are the most "not good"?
How did the intermediate types survive without being "good" sentences?
 

bob b

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fool said:
Within your flood model you use one sentence of "it's a dog " to get all the; it's a dog, it's a wolf, it's a cyote, it's a dingo, it's a fox, it's a hyena, ect. (please correct me if I've made a strawman here, amend as nessasary).
Within this frame work, which are the most "not good"?
How did the intermediate types survive without being "good" sentences?

The mechanism which creates new varieties through sexual recombination is poorly understood.

My analogy was crafted to suggest that mutations are not the major mechanism for creating varieties. Somehow, the natural biological mechanisms created initially by God are able to make major rearrangements of genetic material that "work every time".

In other words biologists have been too quick to assume that the differences between lifeforms are due to "copying errors".
 

bob b

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The final link between English language grammar and protein folding follows:

Proteins and Language
Because amino acid residues are often abbreviated by letters, because there are a similar number of letters and amino acids (26 vs. 20, respectively), and because a small protein consists of about 100 amino acids, many commentators have likened a functional protein (i.e. - one which has the correct shape to be able to do a particular job) to a functional sentence (i.e. - one which obeys the rules of English grammar) of about 100 letters. My students in "Popular Arguments on Evolution" found it particularly interesting that both believers and skeptics used this kind of analogy in their writings, but that their reasonings brought them to opposite conclusions. The skeptic typically argues that a monkey banging away at a typewriter (monkeys and typewriters are very popular) would be very unlikely to produce an intelligible, grammatically-correct sentence like "Drop the anchor in one hour." in a reasonable length of time. Near misses don't count for the skeptic since the change of even one letter would break a spelling or grammar rule, or change the sense of the sentence. Needless to say the hour would most likely pass, and the anchor remain undropped, before the monkey produced the correct sentence.

Believers in the universal application of physical law take a different approach with their monkey and typewriter. Their argument generally goes something like this. Suppose in his first try the monkey typed "bsqm dshcbbbk,RR .nsurlei aknex". Admittedly this is poor grammar, but it's the only sentence we've got. Since living systems reproduce, and since there is Darwinian competition, the bad sentence will be reproduced until a better one comes along. Now suppose in his second try the monkey typed a 'p' in the fourth position and a 'u' in the penultimate position. Well, since these are closer to the target sentence we will throw out the original sentence and keep "bsqp dshcbbbk,RR .nsurlei aknux". After a few more rounds perhaps the monkey has got a few more letters correct, say a 'd' in the first position and a 'ch' in the 13 and 14 positions. Now we have "dsqp dshcbbbchRR .nsurlei aknux". Since this has more matches with the target sentence we'll keep it and throw out the last sentence. After perhaps 50 rounds we get to "dsop dhe abchRR in uneei hnur." Breed from this. In another 50 rounds or so we arrive triumphantly at our target "Drop the anchor in one hour."

The above argument in its pure form can only be convincing to persons already convinced. It asserts a functional difference between two nonsensical strings of letters. No person, or machine for that matter, looking for a sentence would notice a difference between "bsqm dshcbbbk,RR .nsurlei aknex" and "bsqp dshcbbbk,RR .nsurlei aknux." It is only because the believer has a distant goal in mind that he chooses one nonsense character string over the other. In the believers' argument the analogy of proteins to language is implicitly abandoned in the first rounds of the monkey's typing, since the character string does not have to obey any rules of spelling or grammar. The analogy to language is used simply to try to impress the unwary with the apparent production of sense from nonsense. My students in "Popular Arguments on Evolution" were uneasy with this argument when they read it in Dawkins' book, but they could not refute it. It is not easy for the casual reader to see that the illusion of steady, gradual evolution to a functional sentence is produced by an intellect, either the believer's directly or in some cases a computer program written by him, guiding the result to a distant goal. This of course is the antithesis of Darwinian evolution.

But perhaps there is a middle ground between the skeptic's insistence on absolute grammatical correctness and the believer's abandonment of grammatical rules. Suppose we allowed the vowels in the sentence to vary to produce something like "Drep tha enchir on une hoir". Such a sentence could probably still be recognized by someone, perhaps a sailor, even though all the words are misspelled. Or, alternatively, suppose we vary some consonants: "Trof tte ankhow im ode hous". Clearly some misspelled words would be easier to recognize than others and some letter substitutions ('t' for 'd', 'k' for 'c') would be easier to follow than others ('r' for 't', 'l' for 'g'). The ability of a sentence like that to function would depend a lot on the reader and the context.

To put this back into a protein context, it might be possible for a protein to tolerate a lot of amino acid substitutions and remain functional. (Again, when talking about proteins `functional' means folded to a discrete, stable structure.) And in fact it has been known for a long time that this is true. Analogous proteins from different species, for example human hemoglobin and horse hemoglobin, have differences between their amino acid sequences, yet fold to discrete and closely similar structures. But what is the limit to tolerance for amino acid changes? Are proteins significantly more tolerant to changes in 'spelling' than words are? Is there a point at which, like our sentences above, further changes will render a protein nonfunctional? What then is the probability of finding some member of a particular class in a reasonable time in a nondirected search? These are empirical questions and, although they can be speculated upon in the absence of relevant data, such speculations must be radically curtailed when data are available. A direct approach to the question, How isolated are functional protein sequences? would have been experimentally impossible twenty years ago, before the molecular biological revolution. But since the development of powerful tools to probe the molecules of life an answer to that question appears to be within reach. Progress in this area is the topic of the following sections.

How Rare Are Functional Proteins?
The observation that analogous proteins from different species could differ from each other, often by quite a bit, and yet retain the same compact shape led workers in the field to speculate that perhaps the exact identity of an amino acid at a particular position in a protein was not as important as its overall chemical properties. So, for example, if one finds an I at position 10 of hedgehog hemoglobin and an L in position 10 of the analogous protein from skunk, then perhaps the important feature is that both I and L prefer an oily environment, and maybe any other amino acid, such as W, F, or V, that prefers a similar environment would also be suitable at that position. This is something like saying that in a language perhaps all of the vowels are interchangeable. Taking the idea further, perhaps amino acids, such as S, A, H, and T, that prefer a watery environment could form an interchangeable group, and perhaps charged amino acids (E, D, R, and K) another group.

Fifteen years ago a man named Hubert Yockey published an article in the Journal of Theoretical Biology (1) showing that these considerations could enormously reduce the odds against finding a functional protein by trial and error. If we do not insist on the perfect diction of the typical skeptic, but allow some slurred speech in proteins, then the probability of finding a small, functional protein of 100 amino acids in length is reduced from 1 in 10 to the 130 power to 1 in 10 to the 65 power - a reduction of 65 orders of magnitude! Yockey went on to show in the article that his calculation of 1 in 10e65, which he obtained from theoretical considerations, fit very closely with the number that could be calculated from considerations of the known sequence variability of the protein cytochrome c among many different species.

Now, the problem with Yockey's calculation for a believer in the sufficiency of natural law is that, although 10e65 is enormously smaller than 10e130 , it still is quite a big number. It has been calculated that there are about 10e65 atoms in a galaxy. Thus, if Yockey was correct, the odds of finding a functional protein are about the same as finding one particular atom in the Milky Way. Not too likely. Well, if you were a believer how might you answer this challenge? One way is through obfuscation, like the production of sentences from nonsense character strings, as was discussed above. A second way is by claiming that Yockey's calculation is inaccurate and that the known sequences of cytochrome c that he used to buttress his work do not reflect all the possible sequences that could produce a folded protein. The best way, though, in the absence of relevant data, is to produce your own calculation, starting from a separate set of independent principles, and show that the odds are not quite so long as Yockey thought. This is what has been done in an elegant series of calculations from the laboratory of Ken Dill (2,3) at the University of California at San Francisco.

Dill's laboratory asked a question which can be paraphrased as follows: Given a ten-by-ten square matrix (like a big checkerboard) and a string of pearls containing both black beads and white beads, in how many ways can a string of 100 pearls be laid on the checkerboard so that each square contains one and only one pearl, and most of the black pearls are in the middle spaces of the board? This analogy is intended to represent a folding protein comprised of two types of amino acids - ones that prefer watery surroundings and ones that do not. After feeding this scenario into a computer the surprising result Dill's group obtained was that it wasn't that hard to fit the pearl necklace on the checkerboard in the right way. They then mathematically extrapolated from the two dimensional checkerboard to three dimensional space, and finally arrived at the conclusion that about 1 in 10! amino acid sequences would yield a folded protein. This is a much smaller number than Yockey's (the federal government spends 10! dollars -ten billion dollars- every three days) and brings the spontaneous generation of functional proteins into the realm of the credible.

Now the problem for a skeptic is how to refute Dill's calculation. It isn't easy since few people are as mathematically talented as he and since it's hard to disprove the simplifying assumptions his model contains. Skeptics are free to criticize the assumptions, but there is enough uncertainty in such things to allow believers to credibly tout Dill's calculation over Yockey's. To resolve this dilemma, to gain firm ground to stand on, hard experimental results are required. Fortunately in the past several years such results have been forthcoming from the laboratory of Robert Sauer (4-6) in the Department of Biology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. We now turn to those crucial experiments.

Very Rare
In the past twenty years the science of molecular biology has made enormous strides. It is now literally possible, in laboratories with such expertise, to cut up a gene, rearrange it to suit yourself, and place it back in a functioning biological system. Since genes code for proteins, one can also produce proteins made-to-order in this manner. Sauer's laboratory, in order to answer questions about protein structure that interested them, took the genes for several viral proteins, systematically took out small pieces of them (corresponding to instructions for three amino acids at a time) and inserted altered pieces back in the genes. They did this, three amino acids 'codons' at a time, for the whole length of the gene. By clever manipulation of the altered pieces they were able to screen codons for all twenty amino acids at each position of the protein. This is like trying all 26 letters of the alphabet in turn at each position of a word. The altered genes were then placed in bacteria, which read the DNA code and produced chains of amino acids from them. It turns out that bacteria quickly destroy proteins that are not folded, so Sauer's group looked for the altered proteins that were not destroyed. By determining their sequences they could tell which amino acids in a given position were compatible with producing a folded, functional protein. And what did they see?

In some positions of the protein Sauer's group saw that a great deal of amino acid diversity could be tolerated. Up to 15 of the twenty amino acids could occur at some positions and still yield a functional, folded protein. However, at other positions in the amino acid sequence very little diversity could be tolerated. Many positions could accomodate only 3 or 4 different amino acids. Other positions had an absolute requirement for a particular amino acid; this means that if, say, a P does not appear at position 78 of a given protein the protein will not fold regardless of the proximity of the rest of the sequence to the natural protein. In terms of our sentence analogy, this is like saying that, yes, all vowels are interchangeable, but that if the last `r' is changed to any other letter, such as 's' ("Drop the anchor in one hous"), the protein sentence is no longer understandable.

Sauer's results can be used to calculate the probability of finding a given protein structure (6). We proceed in the following manner. If any of ten amino acids can appear in the first position of a given functional protein sequence then the odds are 1 in 2 that a nondirected search will place one of the allowed group there. If any of four amino acids can appear in the second position then the odds are 1 in 5 of finding one of that group, and the odds of finding the correct amino acids next to each other in the first two positions are one-half times one-fifth, which is one-tenth. Suppose in the third position there is an absolute requirement for G. Then the odds of getting a G at that position are one in twenty and the odds of getting the first three amino acids right are now up to one in two hundred. In this aspect it is like winning a trifecta in horse racing. Over the course of 100 amino acids in our small protein the odds quickly reach astronomical numbers.

From the actual experimental results of Sauer's group it can easily be calculated that the odds of finding a folded protein are about 1 in 10 to the 65 power (6). To put this fantastic number in perspective imagine that someone hid a grain of sand, marked with a tiny 'X', somewhere in the Sahara Desert. After wandering blindfolded for several years in the desert you reach down, pick up a grain of sand, take off your blindfold, and find it has a tiny 'X'. Suspicious, you give the grain of sand to someone to hide again, again you wander blindfolded into the desert, bend down, and the grain you pick up again has an 'X'. A third time you repeat this action and a third time you find the marked grain. The odds of finding that marked grain of sand in the Sahara Desert three times in a row are about the same as finding one new functional protein structure. Rather than accept the result as a lucky coincidence, most people would be certain that the game had been fixed.

The number of 1 in 10e65, arrived at by Sauer's experimental route, is virtually identical to the results obtained by Yockey's theoretical calculation and his deduction from natural cytochrome c sequences! It therefore strongly reinforces our confidence that a correct result has been obtained. Sauer's group obtained closely similar results for two different proteins: arc repressor (4) and lamda repressor (5,6). This means that all proteins that have been examined to date, either experimentally or by comparison of analogous sequences from different species, have been seen to be surrounded by an almost infinitely wide chasm of unfolded, nonfunctional, useless protein sequences. There are no ledges, no buttes, no stepping stones to cross the chasm. The conclusion that a reasonable person draws from this is that the laws of nature are insufficient to produce functional proteins and, therefore, functional proteins have not been produced through a nondirected search.

Implications of Protein Sequence Isolation
The numerical concreteness of Sauer's and Yockey's results is breathtaking. When a skeptic sees a drawing of Mesonychid next to the Zeuglodon whale he intuitively realizes that the transformation is highly improbable. But how improbable? There is no way to put a quantitative measure on the difference between a dog-like animal and a whale, and believers in the relentless application of physical law take advantage of this by verbally minimizing the differences. The situation is otherwise with proteins. Because there is a discrete set of amino acids and a finite number of positions in a given protein, the odds of attaining a folded, functional protein can be calculated quite closely, but only if the tolerance of proteins to amino acid substitution is known. Thanks to Sauer and Yockey we now have such quantitative data.

It is important to realize that Sauer's and Yockey's results hold whether or not the system can replicate and is subject to Darwinian selection. The odds against finding a new functional protein structure remain astronomical in either case. This is because Darwinian selection can only discriminate based on function and, with the exception of those found in living organisms, virtually all protein sequences are functionless. An amino acid sequence can be replicated and mutated in living organisms till the cows come home and the odds are still 1 in 10e65 that a new functional protein class will be produced.

The problem of the isolation of functional protein sequences is a vivid illustration of the truth of the symposium thesis,

Darwinism and neo-Darwinism as generally held and taught in our society carry with them an a priori commitment to metaphysical naturalism, which is essential to make a convincing case in their behalf.

The skeptic can accept Sauer's and Yockey's results with equanimity because his world is not necessarily limited to those phenomena that can be explained by naturalism. Furthermore, the skeptic can happily concede that many biological phenomena are explained by natural laws. He can agree that beak shape and wing color can change under selective pressure, or that different proteins in the same structural class, such as the alpha and beta chains of hemoglobin, may have arisen through Darwinistic mechanisms. But the believer in the universal application of physical law is stuck. He must maintain, against the evidence, that different protein classes, like cytochromes and immunoglobulins, found their way by raw luck through the vast, dark sea of nonfunctional sequences to the tiny islands of function we observe experimentally. He must maintain, without any evidence, that Mesonychid gave birth over time to the whale. And why, we ask, must he maintain these positions against impossible odds and without supporting evidence? Because, he replies, I can only measure material phenomena, and therefore nothing else exists.

In closing I would like to paraphrase Hubert Yockey (7), who in his career repeatedly pointed out facts that are not supposed to be mentioned in polite scientific company: "Since science has not the vaguest idea how (proteins) originated, it would only be honest to admit this to students, the agencies funding research, and the public."
 
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redfern

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I see where bob says:
Science is against evolution.
From the conversations, it appears bob is a retired engineer, with what seems to be a hobbyist’s level of knowledge in fields outside his professional career. I remember that when I weigh his declaration about science and evolution against how others view it. Compare his view on evolution with the support for evolution that expressed by:
Academy of Science of St. Louis
American Anthropological Association
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association of Anatomists
American Association of Physical Anthropologists
American Association of Physics Teachers
American Astronomical Society
American Crystallographic Association
American Geological Institute
American Geological Institute
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Biological Sciences
American Institute of Chemists
American Institute of Physics
American Physical Society
American Physiological Society
American Scientific Affiliation
American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
American Society for Bone and Mineral Research
American Society for Investigative Pathology
American Society of Agronomy
American Society of Human Genetics
American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists
American Society of Plant Biologists
American Society of Plant Taxonomists
Association for Women in Science
Association of American Geographers
Association of Anatomy, Cell Biology, and Neurobiology Chairs
Association of College and University Biology Educators
Association of Southeastern Biologists
Biophysical Society
Botanical Society of America
Clay Minerals Society
Crop Science Society of America
Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology
Foundation for Neuroscience and Society
General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church
Geological Society of America
Georgia Academy of Science
Indiana Academy of Science
Iowa Academy of Science
Kentucky Academy of Science
National Academy of Sciences
National Association of Biology Teachers
National Research Council,
National Science Teachers Association
Nebraska Academy of Sciences
New Mexico Academy of Science
New York Academy of Sciences
Ohio Academy of Science
Paleontological Society
Phi Sigma (Biological Honors Society)
Phycological Society of America
SEPM (Society for Sedimentary Geology)
Sigma Xi --The Scientific Research Society
Society for Developmental Biology
Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology
Society for the Study of Evolution
Society of Economic Geologists
Society of Systematic Biologists
Soil Science Society of America
Plus whatever part of the 80,000+ scientists represented by the surrogate “Steve’s” at the NCSE are not included in the above
Why do I get the feeling that bob’s declaration on evolution and science just isn’t the defining statement that settles the issue?
 

Jukia

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redfern said:
I see where bob says: From the conversations, it appears bob is a retired engineer, with what seems to be a hobbyist’s level of knowledge in fields outside his professional career. I remember that when I weigh his declaration about science and evolution against how others view it. Compare his view on evolution with the support for evolution that expressed by: Why do I get the feeling that bob’s declaration on evolution and science just isn’t the defining statement that settles the issue?

Well said.
 
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