Mad but Im not pretrib

[Totton Linnet]

You're not making sense, Tots.

You assert the trib, persecutions, wrath is not for Israel, but for the nations, at the same time that you assert that the Rapture is after the trib, persecutions, wrath.

What you are asserting either way is a works based salvation.

Would you mind sharing the basis of your salvation, and if it can be lost, and how?

For the PostTrib is nothing more than a Replacement Theology.

The Body did not replace Israel.

Thanks

Get back to simply reading the bible Danoh...put all your commentaries away for a while.

Tribulation is troublation, persecution. The church has always been persecuted. It is called the great tribulation, because of the severity of the persecution where brothers will betray brothers, parents betray children and children the parents...Jesus warned of it, the church has always believed it.

We KNOW that Israel will be gathered and ARE being gathered, they will be fully gathered....if they had been gathered before the Nazi persecution they would have escaped.

If the church had her own nation she might escape the coming persecution, but she doesn't, she is in the nations. Paul clearly tells us that Antichrist will oppose everything called god...that's YOU, he is going to oppose YOU. This is the tribulation.

When he sits in the temple and declares that he himself is God THEN comes the Lord Jesus in the clouds with great power and glory, the church will be gathered and He will commence to pour His fury out upon the nations, starting with nastypants.

It is very clear in 2.Thess.2. until Darby mucked around with the word departure, by doing that he changed the order of events now according to Darby the rapture comes first then antichrist.

That is why I emphasised that Christ destroys Ac at the END of his career not the beginning.

 

[musterion]

"Pre-millennialism is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation"

~John Calvin

Thus saith the Lord Calvin.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Meaning, Israel goes through it, but will not be consumed by it.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Isaiah 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.


Jeremiah 7:29 Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.

Jeremiah 21:5 And I myself will fight against you with an outstretched hand and with a strong arm, even in anger, and in fury, and in great wrath.

Jeremiah 32:37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

Jeremiah 44:8 In that ye provoke me unto wrath with the works of your hands, burning incense unto other gods in the land of Egypt, whither ye be gone to dwell, that ye might cut yourselves off, and that ye might be a curse and a reproach among all the nations of the earth?

Lamentations 2:2 The LORD hath swallowed up all the habitations of Jacob, and hath not pitied: he hath thrown down in his wrath the strong holds of the daughter of Judah; he hath brought them down to the ground: he hath polluted the kingdom and the princes thereof.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

No because God in Jeremiah.30 says "fear not o Jacob, be not dismayed o Israel, he will sit every man under his vine and every man under his fig tree and none shall make him afraid."

Just LOOK at Jeremiah.30. it is so precise in it's wording

v.3.
For lo the days come when saith the Lord that I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and Judah saith the Lord

v.5.
For thus saith the Lord we have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not peace
v.6.
Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail in childbirth? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces turned to paleness?
v.7.
Alas for that day for it is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble

People read that part and they leap to the obvious conclusion that them Jews are going to get it....yeah let's beat on them Jews but there is a but

but he shall be saved out of it

v.10
...and shall be in rest and quietness and none shall make him afraid.

God said it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman...."why are you afraid? it is the WOMAN who travails"

The church...Israel is and always has been God's firstborn son.

 

[Totton Linnet]

No because God in Jeremiah.30 says "fear not o Jacob, be not dismayed o Israel, he will sit every man under his vine and every man under his fig tree and none shall make him afraid."

Just LOOK at Jeremiah.30. it is so precise in it's wording

v.3.
For lo the days come when saith the Lord that I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and Judah saith the Lord

v.5.
For thus saith the Lord we have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not peace
v.6.
Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail in childbirth? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces turned to paleness?
v.7.
Alas for that day for it is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble

People read that part and they leap to the obvious conclusion that them Jews are going to get it....yeah let's beat on them Jews but there is a but

but he shall be saved out of it

v.10
...and shall be in rest and quietness and none shall make him afraid.

God said it is not the man who travails in childbirth but the woman...."why are you afraid? it is the WOMAN who travails"

The church...Israel is and always has been God's firstborn son.

See when you quote Lamentations and Isaiah you are selecting verses which show Israel's fall, we KNOW all about Israel's fall. But in chapter 30. Jeremiah is writing about Israel's rise.

When Christ comes He comes to gather His church, He comes to deal with Antichrist and the nations and He comes to set up His kingdom on earth with the Jews...it is about Israel's vindication before the nations.

Jacob's trouble is the controversy God has with the nations on Jacob's behalf.

The picture is Jacob after he had ripped the pants off of Laban got all his goods together and flees, Laban in hot pursuit...up ahead Esau coming to meet him [so far as Jacob knew to kill him] You betcha he was afraid....but God was with him and protecting him.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You see it again in Daniel.12.

 

[Totton Linnet]

You're not making sense, Tots.

You assert the trib, persecutions, wrath is not for Israel, but for the nations, at the same time that you assert that the Rapture is after the trib, persecutions, wrath.

What you are asserting either way is a works based salvation.

Would you mind sharing the basis of your salvation, and if it can be lost, and how?

For the PostTrib is nothing more than a Replacement Theology.

The Body did not replace Israel.

Thanks

Tribulation, rapture, wrath that is the order. Israel is being gathered to protect them from both the trib and the wrath, the church is in the nations while Antichrist is opposing everything called god and so can't escape the trib. But she will be saved from God's wrath.

See Antichrist will have a pact with Israel....until the temple is built, then he will break his pact and invade.

 

[Danoh]

There is no point in going back and forth with you on this, Totten; you are simply to set in your blindness that you cannot see that God has often unleashed His wrath upon ALL Israel - both unbelieving and believing alike - because that is the Law convenant they entered into with Him as one nation under Him.

And that He unleashes His wrath upon them, both towards purging them of their rebels, as well as towards refining the faith of the believing ones through said fiery trials and tribulations of His wrath.

Only then does He bless the remaining ones.

Further, you remain just as blind to the fact that AntiChrist is God's rod of His wrath against Israel as a nation.

But you are confused all around; you end up concluding that some of that is about the Body of Christ.

You must be under some sort of a works for salvation, and or for its maintainance - for that is what this foolish Post-Trib conclusion is.

The fool notion that one is yet in one's sins, this side of Israel's temporary fall.

This side of God's grace in His Son, to the Body - which is "not under the Law."

The best to you in your mess.

 

[Totton Linnet]

once again I say read what the scripture says...if God says they will dwell in safety and none shall make him afraid, and that specifically concerning the great tribulation.


...well I am not going to shift from what God says

 

[musterion]

So regarding the op. Anyone beginning to wonder if there was any "there" there?

 

[whitestone]

once again I say read what the scripture says...if God says they will dwell in safety and none shall make him afraid, and that specifically concerning the great tribulation.


...well I am not going to shift from what God says

I'm curious,,,in Revelation 9:4 KJV ,,,there is someone who it is commanded that they should not hurt. That is it is said that there are some that have the seal of God (cant hurt them),,on the other hand there are those who don't,and well they can be hurt. Who are the ones with the mark of God and why are they in the earth at that time?

 

[Nick M]

There is more than one church. Tots knows this. She is an enemy of God. She supports the wicked. I know her heart by the evil she confesses as good. You will not persuade her of the truth.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

I'm curious,,,in Revelation 9:4 KJV ,,,there is someone who it is commanded that they should not hurt. That is it is said that there are some that have the seal of God (cant hurt them),,on the other hand there are those who don't,and well they can be hurt. Who are the ones with the mark of God and why are they in the earth at that time?

The answer to that is in---

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

this is not talking about a stone temple.

LA

 

[whitestone]

The answer to that is in---

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

this is not talking about a stone temple.

LA

lol,who are they is the kicker,and there they are there and the mark of God is in their foreheads and a command that they not face hurt. There we have it they are there and none of the wrath is appointed them,,but who are they?

 

[Swifty357]

Lazy afternoon i thought that verse meant the antichrist conquers jerusalem and is daniels abomination of desolation standing in the holy place which means to me solomons temple is going to have to be rebuilt. Or maybe the antichrist could just go to the spot which now houses Islams dome of the rock. And still fullfill the verse but i think its got a literal interpretation.


Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Swifty357]

Whitestone i think they are God's elect.

Sent from my LGLK430 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Lazy afternoon]

lol,who are they is the kicker,and there they are there and the mark of God is in their foreheads and a command that they not face hurt. There we have it they are there and none of the wrath is appointed them,,but who are they?

They know who they are.

LA

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm curious,,,in Revelation 9:4 KJV ,,,there is someone who it is commanded that they should not hurt. That is it is said that there are some that have the seal of God (cant hurt them),,on the other hand there are those who don't,and well they can be hurt. Who are the ones with the mark of God and why are they in the earth at that time?

There are as many interpretations of Revelations as there are theologians [I was about to say Christians] it is much better to develop your eschatology from open scripture, esp Paul.

My reading of 9 Revs is that there is no church on earth, the kingdom of God is set up and is under way in Israel represented by the 144,000...it is the WHOLE house of Israel.

The wrath of God is being poured out upon the nations which came up with Antichrist.

Jacob's trouble from which the doctrine of tribulation comes [tribulation=trouble] is not the wrath of God, tribulation comes from man and is persecution, the wrath of God is when God will fight on behalf of the Jews against the nations.


...said it a MILLION times

 

[Totton Linnet]

There is more than one church. Tots knows this. She is an enemy of God. She supports the wicked. I know her heart by the evil she confesses as good. You will not persuade her of the truth.

You ignorant turdworm....don't insinuate, state what wickedness I support...or shut your ignorant mouth

 

[musterion]

You ignorant turdworm....don't insinuate, state what wickedness I support...or shut your ignorant mouth

Wow. Do you speak in tongues with that mouth?

 

[whitestone]

There are as many interpretations of Revelations as there are theologians [I was about to say Christians] it is much better to develop your eschatology from open scripture, esp Paul.

My reading of 9 Revs is that there is no church on earth, the kingdom of God is set up and is under way in Israel represented by the 144,000...it is the WHOLE house of Israel.

The wrath of God is being poured out upon the nations which came up with Antichrist.

Jacob's trouble from which the doctrine of tribulation comes [tribulation=trouble] is not the wrath of God, tribulation comes from man and is persecution, the wrath of God is when God will fight on behalf of the Jews against the nations.


...said it a MILLION times

Then if this is correct and the kingdom is under way at that time and it's written that those who were beheaded for their witness of Jesus Revelation 20:4 KJV ,lived and reigned with Christ then isn't it so also that the first Resurrection has occurred Revelation 20:5 KJV ? Is Revelation 9:4 KJV before or after the first Resurrection?