LOST - discussion about the TV series LOST. ** SPOILER ALERT **

WandererInFog

New member
Again, I'm inclined to agree with you, at this point, but I don't think it's necessarily cut-and-dried, though. They may very well be exaggerating now how much they had planned all along, since they realize people want everything to mean something.

Ironically, the EW interview where Abrams and Lindelhof mention the writers bible they developed before the show is one being conducted by Stephen King, where they talk about how his style of developing stories heavily influenced how they worked on Lost.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1562722,00.html

Abrams: It was a network saying, ''We want a show about people who survive a plane crash, and we want the final product in 12 weeks.'' Damon and I, who had never met until ABC brought us together, began writing an outline. After five days, there was one. They greenlit it, and we started writing scenes just to cast the thing. We would meet actors. We would write characters based on the actors, and it went from there. During the period of preproduction, production, and postproduction, we worked on a bible of the series. Ideas have fallen by the wayside or haven't happened; some ideas actually have. But for the most part, it was a leap of faith. It was beginning something that had a lot of big ideas, and believing in an ending.

King: That's the way I work. I just start writing a story. It doesn't make any f---ing sense to me.

Abrams: I'm so happy to hear you say that! A leap of faith — that, to me, is the essence of the show. Just embrace the absolutely over-the-top absurd nature of the story. Because when that kind of story is told with respect for the characters, the story, and the audience, you'll buy into it. That's my favorite thing about your work. You could argue that it's pulp stuff, but told with conviction.​

Yes, there was writer's bible as they started writing the show, but it started falling by the wayside almost immediately, starting with the pilot. They had actually originally intended, for example, to kill of Jack Shephard at the end of the pilot episode:

Abrams: Do you ever make big shifts in your writing, Stephen? Or do you map out enough so you kind of know what you're going to be doing? Because in our show, Kate wasn't originally going to be ''the convict,'' and Jack was supposed to die.​

Another example of the story changing on them based on how things were received by the fans:

Lindelof: My father was into the Illuminati and the number 23, so he was a big reader of Robert Anton Wilson. So there was some intentionality behind it, but we had no idea, no grand design behind the Numbers. But suddenly, the No. 1 question stopped being ''What is the Monster?'' and went to being ''What do the Numbers mean?'' This isn't to say that the Numbers don't mean anything. We just had no idea it had this potential to get totally out of control.​

Knight said:
I'm really not sure why you are trying to make a point about the show being made-up as they went along.

Because I don't actually see it, in a general sense, as a criticism of the show. The fact they've been able to reach back and tie things together in ways they didn't initially envision actually represent some pretty adept show running. This is something that's pretty common to any serialized drama from TV shows to comics to novels, and the writers/producers of Lost have handled far more adeptly than most.

I actually find it interesting that people who are watching the show all in one big run do see it as having a great deal of continuity, whereas having watched for years along with reading analysis of the show along with interviews from the writers/producers, I tend to see more seams.
 

Nathon Detroit

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WandererInFog, nothing you have presented changes anything I have stated. Clearly, the show's authors have emphasized certain things they didn't realize at the onset would be interesting or they "pulled back" other sub-plots that weren't as interesting as initially envisioned. They have also altered the characters as the 6 years have passed by, nobody disagrees with any of that. Heck, that's only natural right? After all when you are building your own house you make changes to the plan as you see the final product being built (lets add another bathroom here... let's move the laundry room the west side of the kitchen... lets turn that 5th bedroom into a loft). These types of changes to the "plan" happen because as you are building you begin to see how you could make improvements to the overall product that you couldn't see when you first started.

And as to your other point that the writers didn't know what they were going to write until they started writing... well... I think that is sort of a non-statement don't you think? Don't most people start creating from nothing? Don't you have to have a starting point somewhere? The network said... "write a show about such and such", and so they did. Of course they had to start from almost nothing. Does the word "duh" mean anything to you? :D

All I can say is....

IF.... The two dead bodies that Jack found in the caves early in season 1 turn out to be who I think they are.... THEN... the major storyline of the entire show was planned out from the beginning.

(that doesn't mean all the details along the way were equally planned out)

If, on the other hand it turns out that the show's writers made everything up as they went along.... they sure did a fantastic job, and they created a super-fun and entertaining string of randomness that me and my family have had a lot of fun with. :up:
 

Nathon Detroit

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And these "kings" and references to kings are the candidates for who will rule or protect the island...?
Very interesting! Good work. I wonder why Kate was not numbered?? Is it because she is a girl? Maybe "replacements" can't be women? If so, that would mean that we know that #42 is Jin and not Sun.

I was shocked at how much was revealed last night.

The numbers.

THEY are the NUMBERS! :doh:

That was unexpected.
 

The Graphite

New member
Knight, who do you think the two bodies in the cave were? Are you willing to make a prediction?

As for my theory about the names and kings, guys, this is extremely theoretical on my part, and I welcome anyone who can corroborate this further, or shoot it out of the water. Like I said, some of my theory is very weak, and I've only barely begun to look into those meanings. And even if I"m on the right track, some of what I wrote may still be mistaken or off track. :p

But, I do find it very telling that two of the six surnames actually mean "king." The odds of that being accidental, especially in this story context, are pretty low, I think.
 

The Graphite

New member
Wanna hear another crazy surname meaning?

[Desmond] Hume -- meadows surrounded by water... or island.

On a seemingly unimpressive side note, Paik is a variation of the more common Paek, and it just means cyprus tree.

Richard was brought to the island, just like these 6 candidates, and he has some kind of authority on the island. The name Richard means "powerful ruler."
 

The Graphite

New member
Sayid - Chief, leader; a term for a descendent of Mohammed!

Hugo - "bright in mind and spirit" .... tell me that doesn't describe his character throughout most of the 6 seasons. The nickname "Hurley" means ocean tide.

Tell me these names are coincidental.

Anyone ever notice that the two opposite leaders in the survivors - Jack and John - actually have the same first name? Jack is a variation of John. It means "God is merciful."

The name "Hanso" of the Hanso Corporation means... God is merciful.
 

Nathon Detroit

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*** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
Knight, who do you think the two bodies in the cave were? Are you willing to make a prediction?
I have two theories and both are interesting.

Who are the bodies in the cave?

What do we know about them? We know that one was a man and the other was a women. We know that they had a small satchel containing a white and a black rock. We know they had been dead for about 30-40 years - yet with the whole time travel issue who knows how long they have actually been there.

Therefore, I think the following two options are the most likely...

1. Rose and Bernard. We know that Rose and Bernard went their own way prior to the nuke being blown in the season 5 finale. We know that at that point in their life and all they had been through all they cared about was their love for each other. Since they were off living on their own it's possible that they simply died together in the caves possibly of old-age or whatever else. The black and white rocks maybe have signified their love for each other: Rose being a black person and Bernard being a white person. Jack finding them in the caves dead yet prior to their death would prove that the time travel aspect of the show was very well thought out from the very beginning of the show.

My other theory is far more wacky yet fits within the scheme of a new overall theory of the show I am working on in my brain.

2. Adam and Eve. Yup, the real Adam and Eve! Jack jokes with Kate that the two dead bodies are their "own Adam and Eve". Maybe Jack didn't realize how accurate that statement really was. The black and white rock was given to Eve by the Smoke-monster i.e., devil/satan/evil force to tempt her. I can't say much more on this theory yet because I'm still fleshing it out but I think it's pretty awesome. Garden of Eden, fountain of youth (in the temple, but now the healing water has darkened), ring any bells?
 

The Graphite

New member
*** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***I have two theories and both are interesting.

Who are the bodies in the cave?

What do we know about them? We know that one was a man and the other was a women. We know that they had a small satchel containing a white and a black rock. We know they had been dead for about 30-40 years - yet with the whole time travel issue who knows how long they have actually been there.

Therefore, I think the following two options are the most likely...

1. Rose and Bernard. We know that Rose and Bernard went their own way prior to the nuke being blown in the season 5 finale. We know that at that point in their life and all they had been through all they cared about was their love for each other. Since they were off living on their own it's possible that they simply died together in the caves possibly of old-age or whatever else. The black and white rocks maybe have signified their love for each other: Rose being a black person and Bernard being a white person. Jack finding them in the caves dead yet prior to their death would prove that the time travel aspect of the show was very well thought out from the very beginning of the show.

My other theory is far more wacky yet fits within the scheme of a new overall theory of the show I am working on in my brain.

2. Adam and Eve. Yup, the real Adam and Eve! Jack jokes with Kate that the two dead bodies are their "own Adam and Eve". Maybe Jack didn't realize how accurate that statement really was. The black and white rock was given to Eve by the Smoke-monster i.e., devil/satan/evil force to tempt her. I can't say much more on this theory yet because I'm still fleshing it out but I think it's pretty awesome. Garden of Eden, fountain of youth (in the temple, but now the healing water has darkened), ring any bells?
*** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
For a second, I thought the second theory was (sorry) a little dumb. However, the black and white stones representing the knowledge of good and evil... and of course the backgammon game of Locke and Walt (also black and white), and Locke's explanation of the game right in the beginning. Hmmmm! I'm keeping an eye out for this one.
 

yokefellow

New member
Random thoughts: in last night's episode, Ilana said the MIB was "recruiting." Obviously he is going after Sawyer, but how? Is the MIB really trying to get off the island? Why does the island need "candidates" and/or why/how does it need to be protected? Still a struggle to find out who is on which side.

This morning I was trying to remember who the Smoke Monster/MIB has pursued or killed in past seasons to see if that would give any clues. I know it and Locke had several incidents, which is beginning to make more sense from the parallels shown in both characters last night.

And what's up with the blonde kid in the woods? A young Jacob?
 

Nathon Detroit

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*** SUPER SPOILER ALERT ***
For a second, I thought the second theory was (sorry) a little dumb. However, the black and white stones representing the knowledge of good and evil... and of course the backgammon game of Locke and Walt (also black and white), and Locke's explanation of the game right in the beginning. Hmmmm! I'm keeping an eye out for this one.
I just submitted a rather long theory to one of the major LOST websites. I will let you know if they publish my theory. :D

Yes... I am a nerd. But hey! It's fun!!
 

Newman

New member
And what's up with the blonde kid in the woods? A young Jacob?

That's what I thought at first, but he used third person when talking about the MIB killing Jacob and the "rules".

Knight, I like the Bernard/Rose theory.

Rose's last name before she married Bernard was "Henderson", which means "son of henry". "Henry" means "home ruler".

"Nadler", unfortunately, means "needle maker". How boring.
 

yokefellow

New member
Is there any way that the boy could be Aaron? (blonde hair takes after his mother...)

But Aaron never came back to the island; he's with Claire's mom.

Since the boy said "you know the rules" it would seem that it's Jacob or some other island-related person. It would also explain why the MIB got so mad and yelled at him saying, "don't tell me what I can't do!" (like they've argued about this before).

*sigh* so many questions...
 

Nathon Detroit

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Is there any way that the boy could be Aaron? (blonde hair takes after his mother...)
I think that's certainly a possibility.

Aaron could be the REAL (and chosen) candidate to take over for Jacob. Aaron returns to the island from the future to remind the smoke monster of the rules.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Maybe, just maybe....

4) Locke

8) Reyes

15) Ford

16) Jarrah

23) Shephard

42) Jin or Sun Kwon

4+8+15+16+23+42=108

Push the button every 108 minutes to save the world. Maybe, just maybe... Aaron is number 108.
 

The Graphite

New member
Here's one of my theories that just got published.... yay!!!

The Howling Man.

I don't always believe my own theories but they sure are fun to ponder. :chuckle:

Congrats, very interesting and plausible. I'm thinking of putting my Kings theory there, now. Especially with the new information I've found.

Jack's symbolism is further comfirmed to me by his father's name. Jack is a shepherd who is a great physician, who is addicted to the "water of life," and his father's name is... Christian? Yup.

Reyes means king. Kwon means "authority" and was used explicitly to refer to kings. Guess what? Sun's family name "Paik" (also transliterated as "Paek" or "Park") is traced back to the founding king of the Silla Dynasty, one of the greatest empires in Korean history. Now we have FOUR names on the list that refer to kings specifically.

But I'll leave it at that for now. :cool: I'll have to write it up better before I post it there. (Plus, I really oughtta watch last night's episode first, too! We probably can after I get home from work, tongiht.)

Oh, one last note. It did occur to me that, in looking up the meaning of names, that I might be looking at this the same way people read horoscopes - adding their own meaning into it, seeing what they want to see. So... I looked over a comprehensive list of the meanings of names of every secondary and background character in the show's history.

Virtually all of them have meanings trivial to the story -- wagon wheel maker, needle maker, tree, name of an actual river, name of a suburb of London, etc. Nothing like the meanings of the names of the major characters, especially the king-related "candidates."

Still open to suggestions or refutations, especially concerning the weakest name in my theory - Ford.
 
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chatmaggot

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
This morning I was trying to remember who the Smoke Monster/MIB has pursued or killed in past seasons to see if that would give any clues. I know it and Locke had several incidents, which is beginning to make more sense from the parallels shown in both characters last night.

Well, I watched the very first episode tonight on Hulu and the first victim was the pilot from the original plane crash.

Also, I watched the Twilight Zone episode (found it online) that Knight referred to The Howling Man. Interesting stuff.
 

The Graphite

New member
Well, right off the bat, I can tell you why the Smoke Monster killed the pilot.

He was psychic cop Matt Parkman, from Heroes. He posed too great a threat! The MS couldn't chance him running around, reading his mind and staying one step ahead, so the monster killed him off quick. :cool:
 
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