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[Lighthouse]

Judas denied Christ and died as an apostate, a son of perdition/hell. Denying Him is the opposite of receiving, loving, knowing, obeying Him.

Your last statement is a big assumption without basis (unless we are robots).

People deny things they once believed as true all of the time. Do you think that no atheist has ever believed in God? Some kids used to believe in Santa and Tooth Fairy, but no longer do so.

Could your idea of the circumcision deny Him? If so, you must qualify your absolute, indefensible statement.

How many times do we have to go through this? Mystery and I aren't even the only ones arguing with you about this. Numerous people have, time and again, shown you that Judas was never saved, and yet you continue to use him as an illustration. What's next, are you going to use Adam's fall as "proof" that we can fall away?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jesus did not lie and his statements are true when Judas degenerated into this state. Jesus did not say this about him the day he chose him as an apostle. Your chronology is flawed.

So what do you see as the unflawed chronology?

This?
1. Jesus incarnated = God in the flesh.
2. Jesus chooses Judas to be a disciple.
3. Jesus is ignorant of Judas' spiritual state.
4. Judas was initially a saved disciple, walking with Christ.
5. Judas changes his mind.
6. Jesus detects Judas' change of mind.
7. Jesus, having learned new information, declares Judas the son of perdition.

Do you agree with the above chronology? If not, what corrections would you make? No long-winded statements, just make the edits you feel I have gotten incorrect.

How does one become a "son" of anything without being "born" into sonship? Do we change into 'sons'? No, we are born by our mothers or re-born (adopted) through Christ's atoning sacrifice.

'Perdition' means 'wasteful' and Judas exemplified the term when he complains to Mary when she annointed Christ (John 12:4-5). This pernicious 'son of perdition' could not grasp the reason anyone would bestow anything of worth on our Savior.

As early as John 6:70, Christ tells us:
"Have not I chosen you, yet one of you is a devil?"

It is clear from the Scriptures that Judas was never saved. That is why he was not kept (John 17:12).

 

[godrulz]

:up:

Faith and continuance in the faith is not a work.

The rest of you assume Judas could not have been a believer because it contradicts your theology.

The Timothy passage 'reigning' loophole is another assumption and eisegesis, again to retain a preconceived theology.

We base our doctrinal understanding on all of Scripture, not just a proof text or one person.

 

[Adam]

Faith and continuance in the faith is not a work.

The rest of you assume Judas could not have been a believer because it contradicts your theology.

The Timothy passage 'reigning' loophole is another assumption and eisegesis, again to retain a preconceived theology.

We base our doctrinal understanding on all of Scripture, not just a proof text or one person.

That's why I didn't just mention the Timothy passage, but also 2 statements in Ephesians.

 

[godrulz]

That's why I didn't just mention the Timothy passage, but also 2 statements in Ephesians.

I know the proof texts for the security of the believer and do not dispute them. In the larger context and with the warning passages, it does not mean that salvation is unconditional and irrevocable.

We would have to look at all the relevant verses and offer possible interpretations. This has been done on many other threads already.

Are you a Calvinist?

 

[Mystery]

Faith and continuance in the faith is not a work.

The rest of you assume Judas could not have been a believer because it contradicts your theology.

The Timothy passage 'reigning' loophole is another assumption and eisegesis, again to retain a preconceived theology.

We base our doctrinal understanding on all of Scripture, not just a proof text or one person.

The evidence that you are not a Christian is Here

 

[godrulz]

The evidence that you are not a Christian is Here

The evidence that you are a quack is here....

Why don't you write an infallible commentary on the whole Bible, so people who disagree with your verse by verse exposition will know what they have to parrot in order to not go to hell?

 

[Adam]

Are you a Calvinist?

Absolutely not. I consider it a perversion.

I'm as Open Theist as they come.

 

[godrulz]

Absolutely not. I consider it a perversion.

I'm as Open Theist as they come.

Are you Mid-Acts/Plot?

Who is your favorite OT author? What were you before that?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Are you Mid-Acts/Plot?

Who is your favorite OT author? What were you before that?

Can you answer the questions in this post above?

 

[Adam]

Are you Mid-Acts/Plot?

Yes.

Who is your favorite OT author?

Bob Hill. I won't name Boyd, Sanders, Pinnock or any of ther other guys because they get other doctrines wrong.

What were you before that?

I grew up Arminian, but hated it every step of the way. The night I found the Open View and saw the Biblical defense of it, I changed my views immediately.

 

[Delmar]

Yes.Bob Hill. I won't name Boyd, Sanders, Pinnock or any of ther other guys because they get other doctrines wrong.I grew up Arminian, but hated it every step of the way. The night I found the Open View and saw the Biblical defense of it, I changed my views immediately.

If I remember correctly you accepted mid acts before you became OV, is that correct?

 

[godrulz]

So what do you see as the unflawed chronology?

This?
1. Jesus incarnated = God in the flesh.
2. Jesus chooses Judas to be a disciple.
3. Jesus is ignorant of Judas' spiritual state.
4. Judas was initially a saved disciple, walking with Christ.
5. Judas changes his mind.
6. Jesus detects Judas' change of mind.
7. Jesus, having learned new information, declares Judas the son of perdition.

Sonship is adoptive, not physical, so the parallels are analogous, not identical (cf. physical birth vs spiritual rebirth).

The Jesus Christ Superstar view of Judas is too Calvinistic, not biblical.

1. Jn. 1:1-14; Phillipians 2:5-11

2. He was chosen after prayer to the Father. Judas was an apostle, not a betrayer or son of perdition at this early point in ministry. Jesus does not chose devils for His holy ministry and inner circle.

3. Jesus fully knows his spiritual state which changed over time. Jesus' knowledge of man is perfect (Lk. 2:52, not omniscient, but Spirit revelation) and changed as contingencies changed.

4. Judas was not a post-cross 'Christian', but he was a true vs counterfeit disciple when he was called.

5. Judas may have had seeds of rebellion and weakness when he was chosen, but so did Peter (hence Sanders: "The God who risks"). The future is partially open, not tightly controlled. This is consistent with a providential understanding of sovereignty.

6. Jesus knows the hearts as they change, not before there was a heart to know (eternity past).

7. Judas was not predestined before birth to betray, be possessed, kill himself. Judas freely did these things and became a betrayer, became possessed, became dead in hell. God did not desire nor intend this, nor was it pivotal in redemption. Someone else or no one else could have fulfilled/illustrated Scripture (cf. Jesus/Egypt).

Rate responsiveness vs assertion 1-10?

 

[Adam]

If I remember correctly you accepted mid acts before you became OV, is that correct?

Delmar, thank you.

godrulz, I was wrong.

My testimony above was about the mid-acts view. TOL user 'duel' introduced me to mid-acts dispensationalism and open theism both in one night back in 1997. I changed to the mid-acts view almost immediately.

However, it took me almost a year to really wrap my head aroun open theism.

 

[Mystery]

Jesus does not chose devils for His holy ministry and inner circle.

" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Once again, the Bible proves that you are a false teacher.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Sonship is adoptive, not physical, so the parallels are analogous, not identical (cf. physical birth vs spiritual rebirth).

Unresponsive. No matter if sonship is adoptive, are you saying you can get yourself unadopted?

3. Jesus fully knows his spiritual state which changed over time. Jesus' knowledge of man is perfect (Lk. 2:52, not omniscient, but Spirit revelation) and changed as contingencies changed.

You use Luke 2:52 to support this view? I am sure you know that the verse speaks to the Son of Man's humanity and not the Son of God's divinity.

 

[godrulz]

" For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

Once again, the Bible proves that you are a false teacher.

From the beginning or early in his ministry, not from eternity past or Gen. 1:1. The chronology must be carefully mapped lest you proof text out of context.

 

[godrulz]

Unresponsive. No matter if sonship is adoptive, are you saying you can get yourself unadopted?

You use Luke 2:52 to support this view? I am sure you know that the verse speaks to the Son of Man's humanity and not the Son of God's divinity.

Lk. 2 was not the best verse, but still valid. Sonship is a concept that is not identical to our modern legal system.

Sonship is not irrevocable. Godless unbelief leads to forfeiture of eternal life which is in the Son (an apostate is not in the Son, but rejected their first love). I Jn. 5:11-13.

 

[Mystery]

From the beginning or early in his ministry, not from eternity past or Gen. 1:1. The chronology must be carefully mapped lest you proof text out of context.

You blithering pile of feces!

I NEVER once stated ANYTHING about knowing Judas from the the time of creation.

The Bible CLEARLY says that Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Him from the moment he chose him.

You godless pervert.

 

[godrulz]

You blithering pile of feces!

I NEVER once stated ANYTHING about knowing Judas from the the time of creation.

The Bible CLEARLY says that Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray Him from the moment he chose him.

You godless pervert.

Why would a holy, wise God chose a godless pervert to share in His inner ministry of the gospel? Are you saying that a night of prayer led to a foolish decision or are you being Calvinistic or fatalistic about Judas' destiny? Try OT on for size.