Legal Notes: taking stock of the law here and abroad.

Town Heretic

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The latest Fox move in the Andrea Tantaros lawsuit accusing a number of male, Fox employees of sexual harassment, is to have the case removed to arbitration and out of the spotlight. Her lawyer is claiming that Fox offered a seven figure settlement if Tantaros retracted the sexual allegations and that she declined.

Tantaros is one of 20 women to have come forward with similar allegations since long time Fox anchor Gretchen Carlson went public with claims and legal action, leading to the hurried resignation of Roger Ailes.
 

Town Heretic

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Hall of Fame
This thread has been quiet too long and I thought I'd move a bit of a conversation I had with fool on the Trump ban attempt.

So what's Trump's next move?
Send his boys into Court to oppose the stay at hearing and appeal it if they don't like the verdict. It's not complicated really. The Executive Order has been stayed on the point, meaning it can't be used to invalidate the visas meaning there's no cause to detain people using them. There's no reason for anyone to be pointing guns.

The AG's office should be active momentarily. And I'm reading there may be an ex parte argument that releasing those detained, pending the hearing, could constitute a present danger, so there's potential limbo that might need yet another hearing.

Looks like that's about what's happened.

US judge temporarily blocks Trump's travel ban nationwide​

Martha Bellisle, Associated Press,Associated Press​
UP
SEATTLE (AP) -- A U.S. judge on Friday imposed a nationwide hold on President Donald Trump's ban on travelers and immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries, siding with two states that had challenged the executive order that has launched legal battles across the country.

U.S. District Judge James Robart in Seattle ruled that Washington state and Minnesota had standing to challenge Trump's order, which government lawyers disputed, and said they showed their case was likely to succeed. About 60,000 people from the affected countries had their visas cancelled.

"The state has met its burden in demonstrating immediate and irreparable injury," Robart said. "This TRO (temporary restraining order) is granted on a nationwide basis ..."

It wasn't immediately clear what happens next for people who had waited years to receive visas to come to America, however an internal email circulated among Homeland Security officials told employees to comply with the ruling immediately.

Also, it seems Trump will be looking for an emergency hearing on the issue, as anticipated.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Since I want to keep this going...remember the woman who sued McDonald's over spilling hot coffee? The poster child for reform relating to limits on recovery? Well, you probably don't know the real story. The woman's name was Stella Liebeck, she was 79 years old at the time and the coffee that spilled when she opened the lid to add cream and sugar was so hot that it left 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body, requiring skin grafts. She originally sought only reimbursement for the medical costs for around 20k.

McDonald's said no. A jury said, "Yes, and then some."
 

Arthur Brain

Well-known member
Since I want to keep this going...remember the woman who sued McDonald's over spilling hot coffee? The poster child for reform relating to limits on recovery? Well, you probably don't know the real story. The woman's name was Stella Liebeck, she was 79 years old at the time and the coffee that spilled when she opened the lid to add cream and sugar was so hot that it left 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body, requiring skin grafts. She originally sought only reimbursement for the medical costs for around 20k.

McDonald's said no. A jury said, "Yes, and then some."

I guess McDonald's weren't "loving it" over that result. Good for the jury and stuff the 'Big Mac'...
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
This thread has been quiet too long and I thought I'd move a bit of a conversation I had with fool on the Trump ban attempt.



Looks like that's about what's happened.

US judge temporarily blocks Trump's travel ban nationwide​

Martha Bellisle, Associated Press,Associated Press​
UP
SEATTLE (AP) -- A U.S. judge on Friday imposed a nationwide hold on President Donald Trump's ban on travelers and immigrants from seven predominantly Muslim countries, siding with two states that had challenged the executive order that has launched legal battles across the country.

U.S. District Judge James Robart in Seattle ruled that Washington state and Minnesota had standing to challenge Trump's order, which government lawyers disputed, and said they showed their case was likely to succeed. About 60,000 people from the affected countries had their visas cancelled.

"The state has met its burden in demonstrating immediate and irreparable injury," Robart said. "This TRO (temporary restraining order) is granted on a nationwide basis ..."

It wasn't immediately clear what happens next for people who had waited years to receive visas to come to America, however an internal email circulated among Homeland Security officials told employees to comply with the ruling immediately.

Also, it seems Trump will be looking for an emergency hearing on the issue, as anticipated.

So who hears the hearing? What level is it at now? Those were Federal District Judges filing the first three or four stays on behalf of individuals? And now this is a Federal Circuit Court on behalf of two states? Or just a regular Federal Judge? Describe the layers of this onion for the lay people, how soon can Donny get this to the Supremes?

I get that it's the weekend but I'm a little shocked that the Administration hasn't quashed this with a ruling from a higher court somewhere that was friendly.
Or is that too complicated to happen on a weekend?
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Since I want to keep this going...remember the woman who sued McDonald's over spilling hot coffee? The poster child for reform relating to limits on recovery? Well, you probably don't know the real story. The woman's name was Stella Liebeck, she was 79 years old at the time and the coffee that spilled when she opened the lid to add cream and sugar was so hot that it left 3rd degree burns over 6% of her body, requiring skin grafts. She originally sought only reimbursement for the medical costs for around 20k.

McDonald's said no. A jury said, "Yes, and then some."

I tell people that all the time. They gave her a cup of Lava.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
So who hears the hearing? What level is it at now? Those were Federal District Judges filing the first three or four stays on behalf of individuals? And now this is a Federal Circuit Court on behalf of two states? Or just a regular Federal Judge? Describe the layers of this onion for the lay people, how soon can Donny get this to the Supremes?

I get that it's the weekend but I'm a little shocked that the Administration hasn't quashed this with a ruling from a higher court somewhere that was friendly.
Or is that too complicated to happen on a weekend?
At present, as I understand it, there are a number of federal judges with orders issued relating to Trump's action. Some are regionally focused. A couple have larger implications and holdings. And no, Trump can't run to a higher Court except in appeal of the lower Court's ruling, so the appellate courts are out until the initial finding and holdings.

Essentially there are two foundations for the Courts to juggle. First, Code gives the president the clear right to suspend a class of aliens as immigrants (or non) or place whatever restrictions he deems reasonable if that entry would be harmful to our interests. But there's also language forbidding discrimination based upon race, religion and nationality. The Courts will have to look at both and make a determination if the interest and threat is such that the inarguable act of discrimination is justified.

Wouldn't surprise me if this became an establishment clause issue, given the uneven treatment relating to religious beliefs...stay tuned.

I suspect the lower rulings will go badly for the president and we'll see this taken to the appellate and potentially the S. Ct.
 

Town Heretic

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I left out one note. If the lower courts weighing in begin to differ over objections/reading of the problematic nature of the ban then Trump can seek to have that dealt with at the appellate level and if there's conflict there directly to the S. Ct. I haven't seen that inconsistency at the lower level yet, but I wouldn't put it past the Exec. to attempt the case...of course we're seven-ish days out from the hearings anyway, so...


And that's to say nothing of the POTUS Tweet Power, as enumerated by the Trump Doctrine.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
So the news this morning is that a federal appeals court court denied the request to immediately restore the travel ban.

What next?
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
So the news this morning is that a federal appeals court court denied the request to immediately restore the travel ban.

What next?
I was surprised by that, given the treatment of the federal courts involved. I didn't see the discrepancy that would have warranted the attempt. It appears the appellate court didn't either. In any event we're right back where we were, waiting on what lawyers tend to refer to as the Ten day hearing (most temporary orders are issued ex parte and a hearing on the merits is conducted typically within seven to ten days thereafter. If it goes as I expect then we're back in appellate courts and potentially the S. Ct. thereafter.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
Tri-custody order issued in New York

An unprecedented ruling out of New York the other day sees custody of a child granted to three participants in a once consensual relationship gone sour. The short of it is a barren couple started an affair with a downstairs neighbor, who agreed to have a child with them. Things went as planned, the child was conceived and brought into the world...Later, the two women decided they no longer needed the husband. Wife left him. He sued for custody as she sued for divorce.

And now we have the unusual product of an unusual union.





 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Tri-custody order issued in New York

An unprecedented ruling out of New York the other day sees custody of a child granted to three participants in a once consensual relationship gone sour. The short of it is a barren couple started an affair with a downstairs neighbor, who agreed to have a child with them. Things went as planned, the child was conceived and brought into the world...Later, the two women decided they no longer needed the husband. Wife left him. He sued for custody as she sued for divorce.

And now we have the unusual product of an unusual union.
I guess. But these unions aren't as unusual today as they weren't before, it's just a type of climate where there's no incentive to hide such an unusual union than it used to be.
 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
I guess. But these unions aren't as unusual today as they weren't before, it's just a type of climate where there's no incentive to hide such an unusual union than it used to be.
The note in it that resonates is found in the potential, at some point, for it to factor in an attempt at legitimizing polygamy, I suspect.
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
The note in it that resonates is found in the potential, at some point, for it to factor in an attempt at legitimizing polygamy, I suspect.
Which strikes me as a bit dissonant, because, if I've ever associated anything with a patriarchical society, it'd be polygamy. It won't be called polygamy of course, and maybe I'm the only one with such an association, but it strikes me as ironic that the same social tsunami that we're experiencing since WWII and still flows today is one that is explicitly against patriarchy, and yet here we have this court decision. :think:
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Conservative Federalist Lawyer Paul Rosenzweig to his fellow conservatives in the legal profession:

"In many ways, you are worse than Trump. For while he is a petulant man-child without any sense of right or wrong, you know that this is wrong. You know that you have sold your soul."

Trading the Soul of Conservative Law for …. Wales?

Lately, I’ve been musing on Robert Bolt’s portrayal of Richard Rich in "A Man for All Seasons." It tells the story of Sir Thomas More, the former lord chancellor to King Henry VIII who, ultimately, was put to death for his alleged treasonous refusal to acknowledge the annulment of the king’s marriage to Catharine of Aragon and his subsequent remarriage to Anne Boleyn. Sir Thomas, who had steadfastly refused to speak to the issue (taking solace in the legal doctrine that “silence betokens assent”) was convicted on the basis of Rich’s perjured testimony.

As the movie portrays it, after the denouement, as Rich was leaving the trial chamber, More stopped him to observe a new chain of office hanging around Rich’s neck. He was told, by Thomas Cromwell, that Rich had been appointed the Welsh attorney general.

At that point More is left to wonder aloud: “For Wales? Why Richard, it profits a man nothing to give his soul for the whole world . . . but for Wales!”

* * *

Sometimes I think about my fellow conservatives who supported Donald Trump's presidential campaign. To be honest, I understand how they could do so—especially those, like me, in what is broadly called the conservative legal movement (I joined the Federalist Society in 1983).

Before the election, a responsible conservative lawyer might, perhaps with only slightly-rose-colored glasses, have reasonably thought that a Trump presidency was superior to a Clinton presidency. He or she might also reasonably have considered the promise of policy victories and magnified the importance of these victories while mentally minimizing the prospect of presidential disaster. He’ll surround himself with good people. People of goodwill are going to join his administration. With a Republican president we can [fill in the blank], where the blank is “get a good Supreme Court nominee” or “repeal Obamacare” or “enact a good taxcut.”

All of these were plausible theories before the election. And while I disagreed with these assessments as a predictive judgment, I could understand and appreciate them and also contemplate that my skepticism might be wrong.

What I can’t understand today is how my fellow members of the conservative legal movement don’t change their minds, even as the evidence of their error mounts. The malignant deviancy that is the Trump presidency continues its steady erosion of core American principles.

I leave aside the questionable non-legal policy determinations, even the ones that might have catastrophic consequences (such as threatening North Korea with nuclear "fire and fury"). I leave aside as well the ever-growing evidence that the president is temperamentally unsuited to his position, as his Mika Brzezinski facelift tweets so amply demonstrate. Those, by themselves, ought to give anyone pause (and how any thoughtful conservative could not have seen the misogyny last year for what it is still amazes me).

What I'm focusing on, instead, is the issue of how Trump degrades the principles of American conservatism. He diminishes the U.S. role in the world and defines downward deviance from accepted norms of constitutional behavior. He has systematically assaulted the core of this country’s identity, transforming it in ways from which the country may never recover.

To take one aspect that is particularly striking, America First (itself a phrase with pro-Nazi resonance) is not American exceptionalism. Indeed, it is the opposite of our tradition of exceptionalism—a foundational set of ideals that has defined our country. America First rhetoric says that America is just like every other country in its selfishness and self-regard. This diminishes our nation and society in ways that are incalculable. In Trump’s eyes, we are no Reaganesque “shining city on a hill,” no Emersonian “poem in our eyes.”

For another example, consider the president’s ongoing assault on the attorney general (and on law enforcement more generally). This is nothing less than an effort to undermine the rule of law and the independence of the legal process. To be sure, the application of law responds to political factors—that, after all, is why the attorney general is a politically appointed position. But the tradition of relative independence and reasonable efforts to avoid investigative interference are norms that exist for a reason. Assailing them is truly, as Jack Goldsmith has said, the act of a kamikaze president. Threatening to fire the attorney general for, in essence, doing exactly what was required in this instance is nothing less than an assault on law and an assertion of monarchical power.

Then there is the president’s obsession with his former opponent, Hillary Clinton. He castigates his attorney general for not considering the prosecution of his political opponent—much as happens in authoritarian countries across the globe. This is not OK. Nor are his assaults on the independence of the judiciary. And his continuing assault on a free press as “fake news.” And ditto, again, for his seeming encouragement of police brutality. Lord knows, I am no fan of Hillary Clinton’s, I am certain that judges often substitute their own policy preferences for law, I believe that the press has a liberal bias and makes mistakes, and I think that gangbangers are a serious danger. But this wholesale attempt to subvert our system of legal governance and encourage arbitrary uses of power reduces America to the image of a banana republic—a comparison that is, as the Washington Post says, unfair to bananas. A summary of Trump's actions in the past four weeks is so ludicrous that it sounds like a joke—but, sadly, it is not.

The straw that breaks the camel’s back, or at least should, is the president’s encouragement of racist, xenophobic, anti-Semitic white supremacists. When a neo-Nazi says “God bless you” to a politician, the only acceptable response is rejection—not “many side”-ism. As John Podhoretz has said, Charlottesville proves that the Trump doubters were right in all the fundamentals. It was past time for the president to condemn white supremacists—yet as soon as he did so (under pressure from his staff), he returned to the abhorrent rhetoric that “both sides” were to blame. This is moral equivalency at its worst; any president who cannot see the white nationalist movement for what it is is so blind to morality as to be undeserving of support.

All of these characteristics, in turn, run counter to the values that animate the conservative legal movement: limited government; peaceful transitions of power; judges who say what the law is, not what it should be; a free press; prosecutorial independence; equality of opportunity; a color-blind society; and the rule of law. The contrast is so great that I cannot comprehend why President Trump is not more widely condemned. No conservative lawyer (at least no lawyer who thinks that his or her profession is in the least bit a public trust) can, or should, support the erosion of critical public legal institutions that Trump has come to exemplify.

To this my conservative friends (especially the lawyers) have a rejoinder. It is so common that it even has a name: We call it the “But Gorsuch” syndrome.

The argument, of course, is that a good Supreme Court justice is worth all of the policy pain and political embarrassment that come with it. Say what you will, but at least these conservative lawyers (unlike those seeking Obamacare’s repeal or a taxcut) have collected on their wager: Neil Gorsuch has demonstrated that he will be a formidable conservative jurist, of that I have no doubt (and I think the same would be equally true of the others President Trump has suggested he would nominate). In a narrowly focused way, this pleases me personally—as I believe in the efficacy of conservative jurisprudence.

But seeing victory in this narrow area of public policy requires conservative lawyers to disregard the broader context and to, in effect, sell their souls. The movement I joined more than 30 years ago stood for something real—a reality that Trump traduces every day of his presidency.

If you march shouting “blood and soil” and “Jews will not replace us,” you are an anti-Semite. If you threaten a Charlottesville synagogue, you are an anti-Semite. If you march with any of these Nazi racists, you are not a “very fine” person; you are an enabler of racism and anti-Semitism. If you excuse these acts by saying there is violence on both sides, as President Trump did, you are an enabler of racism and anti-Semitism and unfit to lead this great nation.

I do not see how any conservative lawyer can, in good conscience, stay the course with this president. If you continue on this course—if you voluntarily choose to support Trump or to join his administration—you too are enabling the destruction of American values. In many ways, you are worse than Trump. For while he is a petulant man-child without any sense of right or wrong, you know that this is wrong. You know that you have sold your soul.

You wear the chain of office for Wales . . . but for what? For the courts? At what expense to your principles? The silence is deafening.

 

Town Heretic

Out of Order
Hall of Fame
An interesting development for states the other day, as the S. Ct. has decided to extricate itself from consideration of whether or not gambling belongs on your block. They did this in their holding in Murphy v NCAA, by striking down the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. According to a majority of the Court, this long standing act is violative of the 10th Amendment.

The practical effect of their ruling is that states are now free to decide for themselves what, if anything, they want to do with gambling and the potential revenue that flows from it.
 
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