Justification of Eternal Punishment

[nikolai_42]

Oh, I see. Sorry about the "fried brain" comment.

Isaiah is asking "Who can dwell in everlasting burning?" The obvious answer is "Nobody can". This kind of question is often asked in the Bible, a question which directly implies the answer "No". This absolutely does not prove that the wicked will not be destroyed but will live forever being tortured by flames in hell.

And you STILL didn't explain why being destroyed is not a matter of terror. ANYONE who is about to be destroyed would live in terror of the destruction. Saying that the "terror of the Lord" means that nobody would ever be destroyed simply does not make any logical sense at all. Why should I believe that God tortures people forever in hell when there hasn't been a single logical or biblical argument given that God actually does torture people?

What was Lazarus experiencing when he asked for a drop of water to soothe his tongue (Luke 16:24)? Regardless of whether this is just a parable or it actually happened, Jesus included that detail in His message. It's not being interpolated - it is actually in the message. This man is not extinguished, he is suffering on an ongoing basis. If he were no more, there would be no need of relief.

And doesn't this passage seem to be a fairly strong parallel to that in Isaiah 33 :

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

How is "have no rest day or night" consistent with "non-existent"?

EDIT : I could accept that there is an end to this torment only because Jesus distinguishes those who DO know His will and don't do it from those who DON'T and don't do it. Both are beaten, but not with the same severity. Is that length of time or degree of punishment? I can't say. But it is clear that there is significant duration (if that makes sense in eternity) accompanying this punishment - regardless of who is undergoing it. The problem with that eschatology, then, is what happens to them at the other end of that punishment? While scripture does not clearly, definitively and without ambiguity say, the "for ever and ever" certainly seems to imply never ending punishment. I am curious about Hebrews 6:8 -- if the "to be burned" is continuous or implies an end (i.e. burned once with an end or burned continually). So while there seems to be hints of annihilationism, there seem to be pretty significant problems for it as well. I don't like the doctrine of eternal punishment, but I have to admit that I see it in scripture.

 

[Timotheos]

What was Lazarus experiencing when he asked for a drop of water to soothe his tongue (Luke 16:24)? Regardless of whether this is just a parable or it actually happened, Jesus included that detail in His message. It's not being interpolated - it is actually in the message. This man is not extinguished, he is suffering on an ongoing basis. If he were no more, there would be no need of relief.

And doesn't this passage seem to be a fairly strong parallel to that in Isaiah 33 :

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 14:10-11

How is "have no rest day or night" consistent with "non-existent"?

Do you mean the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? All sorts of things can happen in parables that do not necessarily happen in real life. I believe that Jesus was using a familiar story to illustrate a point to the Pharisees and he was not talking about the final state of the wicked at all. You also asked "how is have no rest day or night" consistent with "non-existent". It is simple, really. They have no rest day or night until they are destroyed. Remember the genre of Revelation. It is characterized by extensive use of symbolism. So let me ask you a question, and for ONCE, please answer it. How is "existing forever in hell being tormented alive forever" consistent with "the wicked shall be no more" in Psalm 37?

 

[Timotheos]

And doesn't this passage seem to be a fairly strong parallel to that in Isaiah 33 :

I don't understand your point in referring to Isaiah 33.

I just quickly read it, and it seems to be MUCH better support for the destruction of the wicked than it is for their non-destruction.

The doctrine of eternal conscious torture truly is illogical. Sorry.
Why don't you simply accept what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish and they will be no more? Why force yourself into all kinds of strange contortions to justify a doctrine that has no Biblical support?

 

[nikolai_42]

Do you mean the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? All sorts of things can happen in parables that do not necessarily happen in real life. I believe that Jesus was using a familiar story to illustrate a point to the Pharisees and he was not talking about the final state of the wicked at all. You also asked "how is have no rest day or night" consistent with "non-existent". It is simple, really. They have no rest day or night until they are destroyed. Remember the genre of Revelation. It is characterized by extensive use of symbolism. So let me ask you a question, and for ONCE, please answer it. How is "existing forever in hell being tormented alive forever" consistent with "the wicked shall be no more" in Psalm 37?

So do you believe that there could be torment for an extended period of time, but at the end extinction? If so, then terror would be present - but not once existence is snuffed out.

As for Psalm 37, the frame of reference is the earth. And while I don't see the phrase "the wicked shall be no more" in the chapter, I do see them being cut off and the meek delighting themselves in the abundance of peace on earth. The way of the wicked perishes. If all the wicked are confined to punishment and have no more influence (and their way has perished) does that necessarily mean that they are no more?

Going back to Lazarus, the undeniable fact is that Jesus included this detail for a reason. To add detail to a parable without reason only serves to leave the wrong message (at least partially). So because of that, I don't see the detail as insignificant or just a passing remark.

 

[Timotheos]

So do you believe that there could be torment for an extended period of time, but at the end extinction? If so, then terror would be present - but not once existence is snuffed out.

As for Psalm 37, the frame of reference is the earth. And while I don't see the phrase "the wicked shall be no more" in the chapter, I do see them being cut off and the meek delighting themselves in the abundance of peace on earth. The way of the wicked perishes. If all the wicked are confined to punishment and have no more influence (and their way has perished) does that necessarily mean that they are no more?

Going back to Lazarus, the undeniable fact is that Jesus included this detail for a reason. To add detail to a parable without reason only serves to leave the wrong message (at least partially). So because of that, I don't see the detail as insignificant or just a passing remark.

You don't see the phrase "the wicked shall be no more" in Psalm 37?
Psalm 37:10 ESV
In just a little while, the wicked will be no more;
though you look carefully at his place, he will not be there.

The Bible specifically states that "The wicked will be no more". It doesn't say "They will be no more upon the earth". It says "the wicked will be no more". If I am required to believe that the wicked will continue to exist forever in hell being tortured, then there needs to be SOLID PROOF that "The wicked will be no more" is an error, and the wicked will actually continue to exist forever. You haven't given any proof whatsoever. You certainly do not have solid proof that Psalm 37:10 is wrong.

As for the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, a detail in a parable cannot be used to overturn the rest of the Bible. Do the righteous and the unrighteous BOTH go to Hades, separately only by a valley? Obviously not.

I have no way of knowing if there is "torment for an extended period of time" before the wicked are destroyed. And neither do you. The Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed. That, in itself, is enough to terrorize anyone, if you require terror. That is enough to answer the question "Why should the fear (phobos) of God cause a person to fear destruction?" Your argument fails because it assumes that being destroyed is nothing to fear. That is incorrect. All rational beings fear destruction.

 

[Timotheos]

Nick, I can see that nothing I say and nothing that the Bible says will cause you to give up your false belief that God tortures people forever in hell, so why don't we both give up this futile exercise? You won't convince me that the Bible is wrong and I know that you won't give up the doctrine of torture.

 

[nikolai_42]

I don't understand your point in referring to Isaiah 33.

I just quickly read it, and it seems to be MUCH better support for the destruction of the wicked than it is for their non-destruction.

The doctrine of eternal conscious torture truly is illogical. Sorry.
Why don't you simply accept what the Bible says, that the wicked will perish and they will be no more? Why force yourself into all kinds of strange contortions to justify a doctrine that has no Biblical support?

I know well the contortions the universalist has to twist himself into to justify his position. The annihilationist position is a fall back to that. I used to see Isaiah 33 a different way - but for the same reason you do now - I had to make assumptions and put in my own answers to the questions posed. The question may seem rhetorical ("Who can dwell in everlasting burnings?") but the fear is well founded and has an answer in Lazarus (he can't stand it but he still "lives" to experience the torment). The fear is not that God will snuff out our lives so much as He is just and will exact a perfectly just punishment. If someone steals, for example, and they are killed as punishment. That's revenge more than justice. But scripture mandates that the thief repay what he stole (and more). There has to be restitution. Jesus makes the statement that the unjust servant won't get out until he has paid the "uttermost farthing". This isn't speaking of an end, but a process of repayment. Will that individual be alive after all that is owed is paid up? That (in my mind) is certainly a less certain answer. But at the same time, I can't deny the "have no rest day or night" statement in Revelation. Tormented in the presence of God is pretty much what is being spoken of in Isaiah 33.

 

[Daley]

I can prove beyond reasonable doubt that eternal torment is Biblical, and justified. Anyone willing to accept this challenge, I would be willing to have an indepth, one on one debate, here, or even via my email, daleyveneita@live.com.

Anyone up for it?

 

[ok doser]

gee, for somebody who was going to leave, timmy sure seems to be here

 

[Daley]

In the meanwhile, I would like someone to please explain how you can read Rev 20:10 and not believe in eternal torment!

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (NIV)

What does torment for ever and ever mean if not conscious, unending, suffering?

 

[Timotheos]

gee, for somebody who was going to leave, timmy sure seems to be here

I decided to not leave since everyone seems to love to misrepresent everything I say. Sorry about that, jerk.

 

[Timotheos]

In the meanwhile, I would like someone to please explain how you can read Rev 20:10 and not believe in eternal torment!

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (NIV)

What does torment for ever and ever mean if not conscious, unending, suffering?

This again? Why don't you simply read through the thread before you post the same old tired objection to the truth. Do you really think that the answer will be different this time? Do you really think that I will be convinced that this says "the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead"? Do you think this objection will work this time when it has failed so many times before?

Read the verse. Who is it talking about??? The Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet. That's all. In the highly symbolic Book of Revelation, it says "the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet". NOT everyone else who has ever lived. So Why would you use this to attempt to overturn the Bible which specifically states that the wicked will perish and will be no more?

What does "The wicked will be no more" mean if not "the wicked will be no more"??

And please answer the question that no believer in eternal torture has EVER answered. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?

 

[ok doser]

I decided to not leave since everyone seems to love to misrepresent everything I say. Sorry about that, jerk.

then i'll give you a chance to answer a plain, simple question plainly and simply


are the wicked punished before being annihilated?

 

[Timotheos]

I know well the contortions the universalist has to twist himself into to justify his position. The annihilationist position is a fall back to that. I used to see Isaiah 33 a different way - but for the same reason you do now - I had to make assumptions and put in my own answers to the questions posed. The question may seem rhetorical ("Who can dwell in everlasting burnings?") but the fear is well founded and has an answer in Lazarus (he can't stand it but he still "lives" to experience the torment). The fear is not that God will snuff out our lives so much as He is just and will exact a perfectly just punishment. If someone steals, for example, and they are killed as punishment. That's revenge more than justice. But scripture mandates that the thief repay what he stole (and more). There has to be restitution. Jesus makes the statement that the unjust servant won't get out until he has paid the "uttermost farthing". This isn't speaking of an end, but a process of repayment. Will that individual be alive after all that is owed is paid up? That (in my mind) is certainly a less certain answer. But at the same time, I can't deny the "have no rest day or night" statement in Revelation. Tormented in the presence of God is pretty much what is being spoken of in Isaiah 33.

You are incorrect. Tormented in the presence of God is not what is being spoken of in Isaiah 33. Go back and re-read Isaiah 33. Verse 1 speaks of someone being destroyed. How on earth can you read that and assume that NOBODY will be destroyed? It is mind boggling!

 

[meshak]

then i'll give you a chance to answer a plain, simple question plainly and simply


are the wicked punished before being annihilated?

What does this have to do with your perverted reasoning?

Non-believers will perish. Don't add your own hideous idea.

 

[Timotheos]

then i'll give you a chance to answer a plain, simple question plainly and simply


are the wicked punished before being annihilated?

According to the Bible (which doesn't seem to matter at all to you) the wicked will be punished BY being destroyed.

Isaiah 33:1 ESV
Ah, you destroyer,
who yourself have not been destroyed,
you traitor,
whom none has betrayed!
When you have ceased to destroy,
you will be destroyed;
and when you have finished betraying,
they will betray you.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish;
the enemies of the Lord are like the glory of the pastures;
they vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Psalm 37:38
But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed;
the future of the wicked shall be cut off.

I don't know how you can read this and then continue to deny what it says. Look up John 3:16 in your Bible. Tell me what it says. I'm serious, do this. It contradicts your false doctrine!

 

[Timotheos]

I can prove beyond reasonable doubt that eternal torment is Biblical, and justified. Anyone willing to accept this challenge, I would be willing to have an indepth, one on one debate, here, or even via my email, daleyveneita@live.com.

Anyone up for it?

Sure, post right here whatever proof you think you have.
If you can post a verse from the Bible that says "the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead" post that too! And if you can't find a verse that says that, ask yourself "Why isn't there even ONE verse in the Bible that supports my belief in eternal torment?"

I am not at all interested in giving you my email address. I don't need to be insulted by ECTists everyday, only when I log into TWeb.

 

[nikolai_42]

You are incorrect. Tormented in the presence of God is not what is being spoken of in Isaiah 33. Go back and re-read Isaiah 33. Verse 1 speaks of someone being destroyed. How on earth can you read that and assume that NOBODY will be destroyed? It is mind boggling!

While the KJV says "spoiled", destruction doesn't necessarily imply utter end. It simply means ruination. When Jerusalem was destroyed, all the rocks were there - just in pieces. If you hear someone tell another "I will destroy you", the implication is that they will be rendered useless or have everything taken from them. It doesn't necessarily have to even imply being killed. Just one example - Jeremiah 4:13

Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled
Jeremiah 4:13

That's the same word for spoiled. Or Micah 2:4

In that day shall one take up a parable against you, and lament with a doleful lamentation, and say, We be utterly spoiled: he hath changed the portion of my people: how hath he removed it from me! turning away he hath divided our fields
Micah 2:4

If they are gone, how can they say they are spoiled?

But even beyond that, I don't know how you can say that Isaiah 33 doesn't imply the presence of God :

The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isaiah 33:14

Compare with this (note that the above verse has the definite article "the" with "devouring fire" implying a specific one) :

And the sight of the glory of the LORD was like devouring fire on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.
Exodus 24:17

For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God
Deuteronomy 4:24

Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
Deuteronomy 9:3

Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isaiah 30:27

And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones
Isaiah 30:30

And of course....

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:28-29

Note that the "godly fear" of Hebrews 12:28 is not the same word (i.e. phobos) as the terror we were discussing. Also, the OT phrase for devouring fire and consuming fire above is the same in each verse.

I don't see anything (here) requiring destruction to imply anything besides ruin.

 

[Man.0]

In the meanwhile, I would like someone to please explain how you can read Rev 20:10 and not believe in eternal torment!

“And the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night - to the ages of the ages” (Revelation 20:10, Young's Literal Translation)

What does torment for ever and ever mean if not conscious, unending, suffering?

The torment isn't forever and ever - the original Greek words referred to an age, or ages; not indefinite, unending time.

Let me ask you a question: If someone had comitted an offense against you, would you torment that person for zillions of years, without end? And not just without end, but in the most sadistic of ways - roasting and burning alive? Would you do that?

 

[Daley]

This again? Why don't you simply read through the thread before you post the same old tired objection to the truth. Do you really think that the answer will be different this time? Do you really think that I will be convinced that this says "the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever while they are dead"? Do you think this objection will work this time when it has failed so many times before?

Read the verse. Who is it talking about??? The Devil, the Beast, and the False Prophet. That's all. In the highly symbolic Book of Revelation, it says "the Devil, the beast, and the false prophet". NOT everyone else who has ever lived. So Why would you use this to attempt to overturn the Bible which specifically states that the wicked will perish and will be no more?

What does "The wicked will be no more" mean if not "the wicked will be no more"??

And please answer the question that no believer in eternal torture has EVER answered. What does John 3:16 say in your Bible?

The wicked will be no more is speaking about them no longer being physically present on this earth. This in no way refutes the clear claims of Jesus who said that there is another part of us that can separate from the body, the soul. Matt 10:28 "kill the body but cannot kill the soul," clear distinction, "BOTH soul AND body." Where does this part of us go when we die? There are various abodes in the spirit realm. Luke 16:19-31 says the angels took Lazarus to Abraham's bosom after he died, and the rich man suffered in hell after he died. Does that meet your requirement for a verse which says the wicked will be tormented in hell?

I expound on the rich man and Lazarus in some detail, though I could go deeper, to show it really is a literal event. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ec8evwSDPQ

Further, as for Rev 20:10, who is the wild beast and the false prophet if not folks from here on earth? Would they not qualify as examples of persons from among the wicked? As for the rest of the wicked, Rev 14:9-11 includes ALL the wicked in this everlasting torment:

"9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Note what Jesus said:

"41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matt 25:41, 46 NIV)

Notice that BOTH the fire and the punishment is said to be just as ETERNAL as the life promised to the righteous. Just as life is something the righteous will experience forever, so too is punishment a conscious experience for the wicked. They will, according to Jesus, be cast into the SAME FIRE of Rev 20:10 that you deny they will experience. So Rev 20:10 is not limited to the wild beast, false prophet and Satan, for Jesus says all the goats will go there as well, and he says its eternal fire, Rev 20:10 says "for ever and ever".

Now, I think that satisfies what you asked for.

I want to know, if Rev 20:10 is symbolic, what does it symbolize? Can the word TORMENT symbolize unconsciousness after one is destroyed? Can FOR EVER AND EVER represent a limited, short period of time?

This is a clear Bible truth, but if you aren't up for it I understand.