John 20:28 and the Trinity
- Thread starter Jacob
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There is nothing in the context to support Thomas' "CALLING" Jesus "my God". That is an invention built upon non-scriptural concepts and terminology. This is proven by VAST quantities of other Scriptures, including Jesus' words in the 17th verse of this text;
John 20:17 ... say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
The only OTHER reference to "my God" in this context is Christ's God! THAT is the ONLY "my God".
I'm not a JW either, but they do have a couple of doctrines correct.
1) John DID NOT SAY "and Thomas' CALLED Jesus; my Lord and my God.
2) The fact that John's record establishes the topic as,
John 20:24-25 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
Gives us clear context to Thomas' reply to the proof Jesus had just provided.
3) So, the verse simply does NOT state your position, and it is MUCH better interpreted in the light of the context, as Thomas praising both Jesus, and Jesus' God who raised him.
4) So, your conclusion is purely based on 18 Centuries of brainwashing..... NOT on the actual statements and explanations found in the Scriptures.
Right Divider
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Jesus is BOTH God and man.... as a MAN Jesus can talk about having a God as He was an Israelite according to the flesh.
(Rom 1:3 KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rosenritter
New member
Sniping does not become you, and arguing from ignorance for the sake of arguing is not the gospel of peace. If I have "man-made" doctrine, why don't you attempt to define that doctrine then? State it here and see if you can do so without mistake. You've never asked questions so I doubt you understand what you oppose.
Rosenritter
New member
If you recognized the scriptures you would know who the God of Christ was.
Psalms 24:1-10 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
(2) For he hath founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the floods.
(3) Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
(4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
(5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
(6) This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.
(7) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(8) Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.
(9) Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.
(10) Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.
The King of Glory is identified by his ascension to the hill of the LORD. He is called the King of Glory, and receives his blessing from the LORD. The God of the King of Glory is the LORD, and the King of Glory is the LORD. It's prophesied and written.
Rosenritter
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"Believe" would also include not only that they had seen Jesus, but also that Jesus was who he said he was, as he explained to those he saw. Had he not gone to the law, and the prophets, and explained the scriptures concerning himself?
1. John 1, the stated introduction and thesis statement for this whole gospel. Thomas's statement is the capstone. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. And what does Jesus say in response? The immediate context and explanation? Blessed is he because he believes. That was a confession of belief, not a song of praise or a Twitter "My Lord, OMG!" John didn't record Thomas as if he was directing a praise to a distant God. You're effectively trying to rewrite the scripture because you don't like what it plainly says.
Your points 3 and 4 there are evidence of brainwashing. You should wait for an answer. The fact that you think there is no answer and proceed forwards is evidence of brainwashing. You are conditioned to proceed without allowing yourself to be checked by others. Brainwashing.
You don't know very core of Jesus' teachings.
You try so hard to find the loopholes to suit your favorite doctrine.
what did Jesus say about the most important commandment?
Rosenritter
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Love God, and the second is like unto it. Love thy neighbor as thyself. On these hang all the law and the prophets.
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Not to mention that fact that if Jesus was not God and Thomas called him such... Jesus should have called him out for blaspheme.... but Jesus did not do that.
In Psa 5:2, David is clearly referring to LORD/YHVH when he addresses LORD/YHVH as "my King and my GOD".
Psa 5:1 To the chief Musician upon Nehiloth, A Psalm of David. Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.
Psa 5:2 Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.
Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up.
In the Septuagint LXX Greek, the phrase "my King and my God" is as follows:
ὁ βασιλεύς μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου
...which would be translated literally into English as "the King of me and the GOD of me".
Likewise, Thomas' declaration:
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
...is the same Greek grammar as Psa 5:2 LXX:
Jn 20:28 καὶ ἀπεκρίθη Ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ ὁ κύριός μου καὶ ὁ θεός μου
Just as David refers to YHVH as "the King of me and the GOD of me", Thomas is referring to Jesus as "the Lord of me and the GOD of me".
So yes, Jn 20:28 not only implies, but affirms that Jesus is GOD.
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In all four instances, the definite article 'the' is used.
'the' is emphatic.
In Ps 5:2
It's not 'a' king but 'the' king.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.
In John 20:28
It's not 'a' Lord but 'the' Lord.
It's not 'a' God but 'the' God.
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So let's start form the beginning of this thread...John 20:28!
My Lord and my God.
There you go, an Apostle refers to Jesus as God. When you look at some verses in the Old and New Testament you have to remember to look at them with a Hebrew or Greek mind of that period, and not a 20th century mind. Some language can mean something to us that it did not mean back then. For example, if an Englishman says, "I am mad about my flat" he means that he is exited about his apartment. To an American, that same phrase means that he is angry about his flat tire. The word "God" for example, means to us in the 20th century "The Almighty God." To a Jew it did not necessarily mean "Almighty God." In Psalms 82: 1 & 6 God refers to earthly rulers as gods. This is the same passage that Jesus quotes to the Jews when they accuse him of saying that he is God. Paraphrasing Jesus, he says to them; "If it is okay to call men gods, why is it blasphemous for me to say that I am the Son of God"(John 10: 33 - 38). Notice how when Jesus is accused of being God, he quickly corrects them that he is not God, but the Son of God. In 2 Corinthians 4: 4 Satan is also called the "god of this age." Does that mean that he is God Almighty? Of course not!
John even tells us just 3 verses later why he wrote about Thomas story… In John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. If Thomas was really calling Jesus GOD almighty then John just contradicted why he wrote his writings.
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church points out what an early Christian father, Origen (185-254 AD) says about the word "God." "The Son is theos (God), but only the Father is autotheos" (absolute God, God in himself).
This is the reason there is an Almighty God or a Most High God, in order to differentiate the only true God from the others. Another fact to consider when approaching this verse is to understand whom John believes God and Jesus to be.
John wrote his gospel to testify that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. Let us take a look again at what John believes in order to not take one verse and unjustly imply a certain belief on John.
John 17:3
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."
Revelation 1:6
"Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father"
John 20:17
"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’"
Remember that John’s whole purpose for writing his Gospel is to prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not God.
"But these are written that you may come to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God" (John 20: 31).
We must keep John's reason for writing his gospel fresh in our minds as we try to understand this verse. In his gospel, John distinguishes completely between the only true God and Jesus Christ To imply that John believed in a three in one God would be to do a terrible injustice to John.
So what does Thomas mean? To us in the modern world it might at first seem odd, but when you put yourself in Thomas’s place as a Jew in Jesus’ day, it will make all the sense in the world.
The Catholic New American Bible defines this usage of the word god:
"The king, in courtly language is called god, representing God to the people."
Aspects of Monotheism states: "god" is an allegorical equivalent for "king."
This is the definition of the Messiah. The Messiah is the king of Israel who represents God to the people (John 1:49). Thomas was just stating that fact. When he saw Jesus resurrected, it proved to him that He was indeed the Messiah. Thomas’ statement is the equivalent of saying, My Lord and my king. This is not just my opinion; it is easily verified in the Old Testament. Remember, God = king = Messiah.
This kind of language was common in those days. Let’s look at a similar verse.
1 Samuel 24:9 states:
"David also stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, "My lord and my king."
My lord and my God = My lord and my king.
This verse mean the same thing. Thomas is addressing the king of Israel in exactly the same way that David did. You just have to speak like a first century Jew.
Luke 2:11 states:
"A savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord."
Acts 2:36 states:
"God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Lord and Messiah = Lord and king = Lord and God.
There is for me one great proof that Thomas did not mean Jesus is Almighty God when he called Jesus God. When Thomas called Jesus "My lord and my God" all the Apostles were in the room. If this statement is true, then it is logical to assume that from now on, all the Apostles know that Jesus is really God. So from that point onward Jesus should be addressed as God. But as you can see in all the writings of the New Testament, none of the Apostles ever refer to Jesus as Almighty God or YHWH. Not once in the entire New Testament do they ever pray to Jesus. They make clear distinctions between the two. They in fact write about the God of Jesus Christ (John 20:17).
Remember, "No one has ever seen God" (1 John 4: 12). Yet, John saw and spoke to Jesus... Same author of John 20:28 you claim might imply that Jesus is God .
Now... Let's review "Christ"
John wrote in his Book, a clear reason for it's purpose!
Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
Is “Christ” God or title?
Dr. Hugh Schonfield, in his book the Passover Plot. Reported that many Christians he spoke with were not even aware that the term "Christ" was simply a Greek translation of the Hebrew title Messiah, and thought somehow that it referred to the Second Person of the Trinity. "So connected had the word ‘Christ’ become with the idea of Jesus as God incarnate that the title ‘Messiah’ was treated as something curiously Jewish and not associated.”
N.T. Write, the Bishop of Litchfield, agrees: “One of the most persistent mistakes throughout the literature on Jesus and the last hundred years is to use the word ‘Christ,’ which simply means ‘Messiah’, as though it was a ‘divine’ title.” Who was Jesus? p.57.
According to its OT usage, the term Messiah/Christ, the Anointed One, indicates a call to office.
Most certainly, it was not the title of an aspect of the Godhead. This is a later Gentile invention that came about by ignoring Jesus’ Jewish context and inventing a doctrine called the Incarnation- the idea that a second member of the Trinity, God the son, became a human being. As Lockhart says, in Jesus the Heretic, p.137. “Christianity ignored the ‘Messiah’ and theologically worked the ‘Christ’ up into the ‘God-Man.’ Jesus as the ‘Messiah’ is a human being; Jesus as the ‘Christ’ is something entirely different.”
Jesus calls himself "a man" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. Jesus clearly states... He is a man which heard from God also note... the apostles call him "a man" (Acts 2: 22; 1 Tim. 2:5). Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, He is constantly contrasted with and distinguished from God, his Father.
The Hebrew Bible or OT, predicted Jesus would be a man (Is.53:3). But never does the scriptures use the term "God-Man" to tell us who Jesus is. The Greek language of the day had a perfectly good word for “God-Man” (theios aner) but it never appears in the New Testament. So why do we persist with these extra-biblical terms? Why do we continue to employ non-biblical (i.e. unbiblical) language to describe Jesus?
The Bible verse saying is true which says that we are very quick to spot the speck in the eye of another's theology, but how blind we are to the beam in our own. Mary is not the mother of God, according to the scriptures. And neither is Jesus God the Son, nor is he the "God-Man" according to the Bible. And he is nowhere called "God of from God" as the later Nicene Creed called him. Protestants, people of the Bible ought to know that the contentious extra-biblical word used at Nicea, homoousios, meaning ‘of equal substance,’ “did not come from Scripture but, of all things, from Gnostic systems.” Quote from Born Before All-Time? p. 500. Kuschel.
The result was that such terminology introduced alien notions into Christian understanding of God. In other words, "an epoch-making paradigm shift has taken place between Scriptures and Nicea.” Born Before All-Time? p. 503. Kuschel
To the Jewish mind, accustomed to Old Testament teaching on the principles of agency and
representation by which God appoints a man to speak or act on his behalf, such a concept was
both familiar and acceptable. Whilst it is true that some of Christ's enemies believed him to be
usurping or laying claim unlawfully to certain Divine rights or powers, not a single Jew ever
thought that the miracles performed by Christ proved that he was a Divine being, and the gospel
record indicates that many recognised that he was a man Divinely appointed to exercise power
and authority on God's behalf. read Joh 3:2
Joh 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
Do you know the only true God... the One whom sent His Christ/Messiah? This Knowledge is eternal life according to Jesus! Make no mistake about Jesus' claims! The doctrine of the Trinity is Blasphemy according to Jesus!
:sherlock:
oly:Paul
Rosenritter
New member
And I gave you Christ's answer, is his answer insufficient? Or his his word a poor response? If you don't agree with Christ's answer, what answer were you hoping for?
This is what Jesus said:
Mark 12:28. One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus (Yahshua) had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29. "The most important one," answered Jesus (Yahshua), "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord (Yahwah) our God (Elohiym), the Lord (Yahwah) is one (only).
_________________
What did "Jesus say" about selling all that you have, leaving all, and showing yourself to a Levitical priest, and offering the gift that Moses commanded?
Fraud, as you dismiss most of "Jesus"'s commandments, but deny that you do, or spin ithem, or just spam word-for-word sound bytes, on every third post.
Good day to you, sir troll.
To me, it remains one's own pride to think that he/she knows better than Thomas, Jesus' direct disciple and eyewitness.
1 John 4 KJV
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
This would be God the Father. Why? Per....
Exodus 24 KJV
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Thus, they saw whom? The God of Israel. Again-whom did they see? Not God the Father:
John 6 KJV
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Which clarifies:
John 1 KJV
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So, they, i.e., Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, saw the God of Israel. But the Lord Jesus Christ in John 6 testifies that no man has seen the Father, except the Son. Whom did Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, see, as identified as "the God of Israel?"
Guess who? Hint...
Who spoke to Moses through "the burning bush?:"
Exodus 3 KJV
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.......13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Genesis 48 KJV
3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Huh? No man has seen God the Father, except the Lord Jesus Christ. And yet Jacob saw "God Almighty"-he appeared unto him.
Whom appeared unto him? It was not God the Father.
Exodus 6 KJV
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
So, God appeared unto Abraham,unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of "God Almighty." And this same God Almighty, told Moses of a name, never before revealed, until him-JEHOVAH.
What's His name, this God Almighty that appeared unto Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob?It was not God the Father.
Each one of you needs to decide that. I have, did, 20+ years ago. But I cannot answer for you.
12 No man hath seen God at any time.
This would be God the Father. Why? Per....
Exodus 24 KJV
9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: 10 and they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.
Thus, they saw whom? The God of Israel. Again-whom did they see? Not God the Father:
John 6 KJV
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Which clarifies:
John 1 KJV
18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
So, they, i.e., Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, saw the God of Israel. But the Lord Jesus Christ in John 6 testifies that no man has seen the Father, except the Son. Whom did Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, see, as identified as "the God of Israel?"
Guess who? Hint...
Who spoke to Moses through "the burning bush?:"
Exodus 3 KJV
4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.......13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Genesis 48 KJV
3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Huh? No man has seen God the Father, except the Lord Jesus Christ. And yet Jacob saw "God Almighty"-he appeared unto him.
Whom appeared unto him? It was not God the Father.
Exodus 6 KJV
2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
So, God appeared unto Abraham,unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of "God Almighty." And this same God Almighty, told Moses of a name, never before revealed, until him-JEHOVAH.
What's His name, this God Almighty that appeared unto Abraham, and Issac, and Jacob?It was not God the Father.
Each one of you needs to decide that. I have, did, 20+ years ago. But I cannot answer for you.
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Rosenritter
New member
Your half-quote is not the answer. You quoted the preface, not the commandment (a commandment contains a command.)
Mark 12:28-31 KJV
(28) And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
(29) And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(30) And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
(31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
But who are you aiming at here?.Between the two of us I'm the only one maintaining that there is one God. You have said you believe there are two Creators, one of greater authority and true eternity and one lesser authority but yet who created all things but one. .
John 1:1-3 KJV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Tell me this, please. According to the faithful angels of God, whom are we to worship and only worship?
Hebrews 1:5-6 KJV
(5) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
(6) And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Revelation 19:10 KJV
(10) And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.